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Post by misterc on Nov 15, 2021 18:43:45 GMT
I will add my experience here, I have quite a few clients who have three and four Mutec's in series and other who a couple of Singxer SU-6's connected in series as well as others who have serval of these styles of devices in the same configuration. All of which have reported positive differences. Through totally different systems with totally different products and cables and dacs.
Personally I was happy with one of them, until after a few customers last years really give me grief (yes really) about how can I have only one!!!
Really did make me smile a lot as I like to conside myself a digital guy with a bit of knowledge and can generate a respectable sound from just 1's and 2's
So I stuck another one in the chain using the AES output from the first one into the second units AES input and it follows the chain to the dac after that.
Genuinely was not expecting anything at all, however I was surprised at the improvements to the stage depth, noise floor and bass departments. I ran the unit for a week, then went back to the original set up.
It was very difficult to really go back but I did force myself to this to just to really appreciate IF it was Macca Acoustic Delusional Syndrome (Mads for short) pretty sure Martin will not mind this acronym.
Well there have been two MC3+'s in series for a good 18 months now and when you remove one its so obvious there has been a quite dramatic change to the sound, this is repeatable no problem.
The question would you like the change in sound? only the individual can answer that one.
Yes it is easy to measure a pair of how many in series no problem at all, can you see a difference I have not done so so genuinely can't answer that question guys, but I am happy to so no problem.
Currently I have 12 DDC's here (most of which I have purchased with my own funds for a investigational experiment) a few have been trade in's they all measure different, they all all 'measure' improved in various areas. IMHO the top Audio GD model comes the closest to matching the Mutec performance in an average system with no fancy power leads or trick cables. Its quite close no question, there is a price difference and no real EU support but you pay your money and make your choice.
I have one product which in measurement terms stands head and shoulders above the rest it is a pro audio device and its a measurebators wet dream and a half. Oddly enough I personally do not use the device as I feel it doesn't deliver the desired results.
Expectation bias YES it exists as does negative reality inversion ( negative expectation bias to you guys) and buyers remorse.
Golden sound's channel is quite respectable and he tries to stay on the side of neutral as much as possible and he presents very well and is easy on the ear.
Though some of his findings are quite 'interesting' and I do not agree with and are happy to demonstrate for example that any Holo Spring or May sounds more appealing with a quality DDC in the chain it brings the NOS to life without taking the essence of NOS away imho
When he obatins a good two channel speaker set up he will start to grasp more fundamentals of sound reproduction other than SINAD of -150 is required to be good LOL
Currently I have a few new dacs in the stable the Rockna Wavedream Signature, and it without question benefits from a DDC no question and its lock figures are quite special.
Trying actually measuring the clock INSITU within the DUT with the right kit and see how many manufacturers proclaimed figures are correct at the point of clock source.
Yes I do sell Mutec but many of our clients use other DDC's and report benefits.
So far I have found now other product that I wish to change for, and it would no issue for me to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 20:18:35 GMT
A bit of a copy paste error going on there, but I think I get the (repeated) message, that you are happy with the Mutec, and personally run 2.
You can buy Audio-GD through Magna HiFi or Audiophonics and get some support on the product. I am looking forward to the weekend when my cheap ass DDC arrives, and I can have a play. Will it sound better, or just different? Time will tell….
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Post by misterc on Nov 15, 2021 20:47:29 GMT
All sorted now Kevin so you can relax with grammar worrying
Yes Magna hifi have the products do they have the spares and or direct replacements if there issues? here in the UK vat is applicable so that is a consideration when potential purchases are looked notveveryone puts 60 euro value on the parcel!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 20:59:11 GMT
Not worried about the grammar. The message was just a bit confusing, but as you say, it is sorted now.
If you buy from Europe, then you don’t pay the local VAT. You only pay the VAT on entry to the U.K. plus customs and handling fees, but you already know this. We also pay VAT in Europe.
I appreciate your opinion on these devices. I followed your DAC chip advice when I bought my DAC and got an AKM based DAC.
However, spending more on a DDC that I did on a DAC seems crazy at this moment in time, hence buying a DI-2014.
I will look to upgrade at some point, if it works, but there are things that put me off the Mutec - all the coloured LEDs. Things that put me off the Audio-GD - a big blue led screen in a massive case. Singer SU6 - USB only etc.
As I said before, I am in no rush, as my system is far from perfect, but it gives me a lot of pleasure.
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Post by stevew on Nov 15, 2021 21:09:46 GMT
Not worried about the grammar. The message was just a bit confusing, but as you say, it is sorted now. If you buy from Europe, then you don’t pay the local VAT. You only pay the VAT on entry to the U.K. plus customs and handling fees, but you already know this. We also pay VAT in Europe. I appreciate your opinion on these devices. I followed your DAC chip advice when I bought my DAC and got an AKM based DAC. However, spending more on a DDC that I did on a DAC seems crazy at this moment in time, hence buying a DI-2014. I will look to upgrade at some point, if it works, but there are things that put me off the Mutec - all the coloured LEDs. Things that put me off the Audio-GD - a big blue led screen in a massive case. Singer SU6 - USB only etc. As I said before, I am in no rush, as my system is far from perfect, but it gives me a lot of pleasure. Don’t worry about the LED’s.. you press a few buttons at the same time and it leaves it like this  |
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 15, 2021 22:11:48 GMT
I will look to upgrade at some point, if it works, but there are things that put me off the Mutec - all the coloured LEDs. Things that put me off the Audio-GD - a big blue led screen in a massive case. Singer SU6 - USB only etc. Don’t worry about the LED’s.. you press a few buttons at the same time and it leaves it like this That's good news -- can shut off most of the LEDs. The pain is in reading the manual and deciding what of all the menus and controls to ignore! This bit of the manual is good:
Front Panel lock out + LED shut down
When pressing both front panel keys together at one time, all LEDs will shut down except the »POWER« and »LOCK« LEDs.
Additionally, the functions of both keys are also blocked to prevent unauthorized operation, which is important during e.g. live events.
During that state of operation, pressing only one of both keys let every appropriate LED light according the device‘s settings as
long as the key is pressed. Thus, you can check easily the device‘s settings without unlocking the device finally.
To reactivate the keys and the LEDs, please press both keys for apperox. four seconds until all LEDs light again.
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Post by stevew on Nov 15, 2021 22:35:29 GMT
Don’t worry about the LED’s.. you press a few buttons at the same time and it leaves it like this That's good news -- can shut off most of the LEDs. The pain is in reading the manual and deciding what of all the menus and controls to ignore! This bit of the manual is good:
Front Panel lock out + LED shut down
When pressing both front panel keys together at one time, all LEDs will shut down except the »POWER« and »LOCK« LEDs.
Additionally, the functions of both keys are also blocked to prevent unauthorized operation, which is important during e.g. live events.
During that state of operation, pressing only one of both keys let every appropriate LED light according the device‘s settings as
long as the key is pressed. Thus, you can check easily the device‘s settings without unlocking the device finally.
To reactivate the keys and the LEDs, please press both keys for apperox. four seconds until all LEDs light again.
Ahhh.. well. Truth is, I bought from Tony who opened up the packaging and set it up for USB for me. The manual is still in the packaging… never read it apart from looking up the bit where it tells you how to turn off the Christmas lights 🤪😚 |
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Post by optical on Nov 15, 2021 23:57:47 GMT
That's good news -- can shut off most of the LEDs. The pain is in reading the manual and deciding what of all the menus and controls to ignore! This bit of the manual is good:
Front Panel lock out + LED shut down
When pressing both front panel keys together at one time, all LEDs will shut down except the »POWER« and »LOCK« LEDs.
Additionally, the functions of both keys are also blocked to prevent unauthorized operation, which is important during e.g. live events.
During that state of operation, pressing only one of both keys let every appropriate LED light according the device‘s settings as
long as the key is pressed. Thus, you can check easily the device‘s settings without unlocking the device finally.
To reactivate the keys and the LEDs, please press both keys for apperox. four seconds until all LEDs light again.
Ahhh.. well. Truth is, I bought from Tony who opened up the packaging and set it up for USB for me. The manual is still in the packaging… never read it apart from looking up the bit where it tells you how to turn off the Christmas lights 🤪😚 Looks a bit daunting but isn't really. The majority of the functions us home listeners will be using (ie selecting inputs to reclock from source to DAC's) are selected and toggled by two buttons, the same two buttons you press and hold to turn all the lights off. There are a few other features but unless sending multiple signals to other interfaces, I doubt most will require them. |
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Post by macca on Nov 16, 2021 8:01:45 GMT
I like the LEDs. I'd want as many of them switched on as possible.
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 16, 2021 8:15:27 GMT
I like the LEDs. I'd want as many of them switched on as possible. You'll be pleased to know my Mutec has all the LEDs on....thought I might make a Christmas tree out of them lol |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2021 8:34:02 GMT
I like the LEDs. I'd want as many of them switched on as possible. But some of them are blue.... |
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Post by macca on Nov 16, 2021 8:34:53 GMT
so is planet earth, and there's nothing we can do.
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 16, 2021 8:56:31 GMT
Ahhh.. well. Truth is, I bought from Tony who opened up the packaging and set it up for USB for me. The manual is still in the packaging… never read it apart from looking up the bit where it tells you how to turn off the Christmas lights 🤪😚 Looks a bit daunting but isn't really. The majority of the functions us home listeners will be using (ie selecting inputs to reclock from source to DAC's) are selected and toggled by two buttons, the same two buttons you press and hold to turn all the lights off. There are a few other features but unless sending multiple signals to other interfaces, I doubt most will require them. "Oh, my darling Knock three times on the ceiling if you want me Mm, twice on the pipe if the answer is no..." |
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Post by stevew on Nov 16, 2021 9:10:10 GMT
I will add my experience here, I have quite a few clients who have three and four Mutec's in series and other who a couple of Singxer SU-6's connected in series as well as others who have serval of these styles of devices in the same configuration. All of which have reported positive differences. Through totally different systems with totally different products and cables and dacs. Personally I was happy with one of them, until after a few customers last years really give me grief (yes really) about how can I have only one!!! Really did make me smile a lot as I like to conside myself a digital guy with a bit of knowledge and can generate a respectable sound from just 1's and 2's So I stuck another one in the chain using the AES output from the first one into the second units AES input and it follows the chain to the dac after that. Genuinely was not expecting anything at all, however I was surprised at the improvements to the stage depth, noise floor and bass departments. I ran the unit for a week, then went back to the original set up. It was very difficult to really go back but I did force myself to this to just to really appreciate IF it was Macca Acoustic Delusional Syndrome (Mads for short) pretty sure Martin will not mind this acronym. Well there have been two MC3+'s in series for a good 18 months now and when you remove one its so obvious there has been a quite dramatic change to the sound, this is repeatable no problem. The question would you like the change in sound? only the individual can answer that one. Yes it is easy to measure a pair of how many in series no problem at all, can you see a difference I have not done so so genuinely can't answer that question guys, but I am happy to so no problem. Currently I have 12 DDC's here (most of which I have purchased with my own funds for a investigational experiment) a few have been trade in's they all measure different, they all all 'measure' improved in various areas. IMHO the top Audio GD model comes the closest to matching the Mutec performance in an average system with no fancy power leads or trick cables. Its quite close no question, there is a price difference and no real EU support but you pay your money and make your choice. I have one product which in measurement terms stands head and shoulders above the rest it is a pro audio device and its a measurebators wet dream and a half. Oddly enough I personally do not use the device as I feel it doesn't deliver the desired results. Expectation bias YES it exists as does negative reality inversion ( negative expectation bias to you guys) and buyers remorse. Golden sound's channel is quite respectable and he tries to stay on the side of neutral as much as possible and he presents very well and is easy on the ear. Though some of his findings are quite 'interesting' and I do not agree with and are happy to demonstrate for example that any Holo Spring or May sounds more appealing with a quality DDC in the chain it brings the NOS to life without taking the essence of NOS away imho When he obatins a good two channel speaker set up he will start to grasp more fundamentals of sound reproduction other than SINAD of -150 is required to be good LOL Currently I have a few new dacs in the stable the Rockna Wavedream Signature, and it without question benefits from a DDC no question and its lock figures are quite special. Trying actually measuring the clock INSITU within the DUT with the right kit and see how many manufacturers proclaimed figures are correct at the point of clock source. Yes I do sell Mutec but many of our clients use other DDC's and report benefits. So far I have found now other product that I wish to change for, and it would no issue for me to do so. Good to have your perspective Tony, even if you do sell ‘em. It raises a few notions for me. Would adding a better dac be preferable to adding another Mutec? In another way, should you max out the dac capabilities before refining the incoming signal? Also interested in your customer review mixing different ddc’s… in his case a Gaia and a Mutec. Thoughts ? |
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Post by misterc on Nov 16, 2021 9:59:33 GMT
Steve, personally I would look at another dac the limitations are in that area imho.
The gent with the Gaia actually purchased that device with the Venus II and his intention was to replace the Mutec with the Denifrips combination, however when he tried the Gaia on its own he found very little to differeniate between them, (Gaia + Venus II as a package) however as you read he placed the Gaia after the MC3+ becuase in hs system the MC3+ outperformed the Gaia, but in combination he found the results as discribed in me previous posts.
The Aries and Musician Pegasus are very similar (one is made under licence) and oddly enough the Pegasus measures slightly better, does it sound better, not really!
Do use it in DS or NOS mode Steve?
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 16, 2021 10:43:33 GMT
Good to have your perspective Tony, even if you do sell ‘em. It raises a few notions for me. Would adding a better dac be preferable to adding another Mutec? In another way, should you max out the dac capabilities before refining the incoming signal? Also interested in your customer review mixing different ddc’s… in his case a Gaia and a Mutec. Thoughts ? Maybe speaking out of turn, but...
In my system I notice significant differences just in switching between microRendu and NUC-JRiver player and Audiolab 6000CDT transport and different associated cabling all feeding the same DAC. I have no doubt that several of the DACs mentioned here in the last few months would better mine, but with some combinations feeding my existing DAC I find many aspects of the presentation satisfying.
This is leading me to consider focusing on the "before DAC" part of the chain before the DAC itself. I could be wrong, but that is my current thinking in my system.
Tony's customer said that the MC3+ handles USB much better than the Gaia or Venus. I could be wrong but inferred that he started with Gaia in place of the Mutec, both as coax out and I2S, and then USB>Gaia>Coax>Mutec>Coax>Venus but found both much poorer than USB>Mutec>Coax>Gaia>I2s>Venus. That seems the only way he could make a firm conclusion that the USB of the Mutec was much better than the other two. May be out of turn but that was my logic which does not seem at odds with Tony's account here.
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Post by misterc on Nov 16, 2021 11:32:27 GMT
Ideally you would AES use Bruce unless you feel that 384K or above is benefical as AES/spdif tops out @ 192Khz. I have the ability to 1.5Mz as a sample rate (well actually 2.2 on an older dac) does it make a difference oh yes, does it sound better? nah does is it sound worse?, so feel it does others feel its benefical again your choice your system. Personally if you can leave the nattive sample rate alone pretty much it will sound correct
Yes I could make a point for cables and mains conditoning etc, however the question was asked a single component change. Happy to demonstate the the absolute maximum performance of any of the dac's mentioned here, with either a full Macca loom and compare them against each other and then (Bias removal system firmly in place) with other cable systems Oli's, Siltec, Van dur Dull, Van damme, Crystal, Chord, TQ etc then YOU can make your mind up which is the correct path for you. I really didn't wish to kick off another cable nah sayers and all of that debating as to whether its a load of ..................... |
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 16, 2021 12:03:12 GMT
Good to have your perspective Tony, even if you do sell ‘em. It raises a few notions for me. Would adding a better dac be preferable to adding another Mutec? In another way, should you max out the dac capabilities before refining the incoming signal? In my system I notice significant differences just in switching between microRendu and NUC-JRiver player and Audiolab 6000CDT transport and different associated cabling all feeding the same DAC. I have no doubt that several of the DACs mentioned here in the last few months would better mine, but with some combinations feeding my existing DAC I find many aspects of the presentation satisfying. This is leading me to consider focusing on the "before DAC" part of the chain before the DAC itself. I could be wrong, but that is my current thinking in my system. Ideally you would AES use Bruce unless you feel that 384K or above is benefical as AES/spdif tops out @ 192Khz. I have the ability to 1.5Mz as a sample rate (well actually 2.2 on an older dac) does it make a difference oh yes, does it sound better? nah does is it sound worse?, so feel it does others feel its benefical again your choice your system. Personally if you can leave the nattive sample rate alone pretty much it will sound correct Yes I could make a point for cables and mains conditoning etc, however the question was asked a single component change. Happy to demonstate the the absolute maximum performance of any of the dac's mentioned here, with either a full Macca loom and compare them against each other and then (Bias removal system firmly in place) with other cable systems Oli's, Siltec, Van dur Dull, Van damme, Crystal, Chord, TQ etc then YOU can make your mind up which is the correct path for you. I really didn't wish to kick off another cable nah sayers and all of that debating as to whether its a load of ..................... Sorry, I wasn't meaning to talk about cabling or mains conditioners. I was referring to elements of 'the source' whether streaming and its network or the server/player equation or things that go between the player and DAC. Those things which all seem to introduce noise in some way. Due to differences I found above in my system, I'm considering the possibility of a DDC before getting a new DAC.
BTW: I couldn't care less about anything above 96KHz.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2021 12:28:21 GMT
Van der dull...  I wish I was somebody who cannot hear a difference between cables, but unfortunately, I can. |
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Post by stevew on Nov 16, 2021 13:03:01 GMT
Steve, personally I would look at another dac the limitations are in that area imho. The gent with the Gaia actually purchased that device with the Venus II and his intention was to replace the Mutec with the Denifrips combination, however when he tried the Gaia on its own he found very little to differeniate between them, (Gaia + Venus II as a package) however as you read he placed the Gaia after the MC3+ becuase in hs system the MC3+ outperformed the Gaia, but in combination he found the results as discribed in me previous posts. The Aries and Musician Pegasus are very similar (one is made under licence) and oddly enough the Pegasus measures slightly better, does it sound better, not really! Do use it in DS or NOS mode Steve? Hi Tony, many thanks for the insight I use the Ares ii in NOS mode. Tried OS several times, but always feels a tad too digital for me. |
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Post by misterc on Nov 16, 2021 13:56:41 GMT
Steve, personally I would look at another dac the limitations are in that area imho. The gent with the Gaia actually purchased that device with the Venus II and his intention was to replace the Mutec with the Denifrips combination, however when he tried the Gaia on its own he found very little to differeniate between them, (Gaia + Venus II as a package) however as you read he placed the Gaia after the MC3+ becuase in hs system the MC3+ outperformed the Gaia, but in combination he found the results as discribed in me previous posts. The Aries and Musician Pegasus are very similar (one is made under licence) and oddly enough the Pegasus measures slightly better, does it sound better, not really! Do use it in DS or NOS mode Steve? Hi Tony, many thanks for the insight I use the Ares ii in NOS mode. Tried OS several times, but always feels a tad too digital for me.
I can see where that could happen Steve, I take it your main source has as always been TT's yes?
The DS or PL mode is closer to the real sound, However its not as relaxed or tonally accurate ( in general terms not verbaitum) also the bass texture and depth tends to be more chewy.
The Mutec helps with the usual drawbacks of a tradition NOS (which the Aries is not, none fo the Denfrips are, but a kind of physdo NOS, so far only the Holo dacs are true NOS as you would precieve it in this grouping. Does it make wrong, absolutely not, its just a different twist on noise shaping and dsp control nothing more.
Below is a plot of the Pegasus in Phase linear mode measuring the linearty plots (or what ever they called it) first is the 48Khz plot looking very respectable these were taken in NOS using AES format. Note how the 44.1Khz is quite weird compared to the 48Khz plot both the same amplitute signal and settings.
Finially the S/N figures and gies what 44.1khz tops ou the best, but do they sound any different?
Now the 44.1Khz plot note 'interesting' DSP manipulation of the signal
The S/N @ 44.1Khz measrebators Hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2021 6:38:21 GMT
My DI-2014 is arriving this morning.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 17, 2021 7:03:20 GMT
My DI-2014 is arriving this morning. I look forward to your impressions! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2021 7:29:47 GMT
It may be the weekend before I get a chance to play.
I am “working” today.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 17, 2021 8:19:07 GMT
It may be the weekend before I get a chance to play. I am “working” today. Well that's a pain...... Patience it is the. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2021 9:19:44 GMT
It won’t take long to plug it in….
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2021 11:26:09 GMT
Not that I am impatient, but there is only 21 minutes of my delivery slot left….
WTF is it?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2021 12:05:37 GMT
It has turned up just before the end of my lunch break.
It is sat in the house, warming up.
I will give it a listen after work.
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 17, 2021 12:41:00 GMT
It has turned up just before the end of my lunch break. It is sat in the house, warming up. I will give it a listen after work. Way to satisfy your constituency... and yourself! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2021 18:58:22 GMT
Well, the good news is that 5he unit is in excellent condition, and works without any magic smoke escaping.
It certainly sounds good when in the system. Initial impressions are more space between instruments (leading to a better definition) and a wider soundstage.
I intend to listen to digital for a few days, and then take it out to see if I miss it or not.
That is always the acid test for me.
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