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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2021 19:17:55 GMT
Golden Sound (linked to earlier in the thread)
But the important thing is how it sounds…
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 14, 2021 19:23:43 GMT
Golden Sound (linked to earlier in the thread) But the important thing is how it sounds… Can't see a link? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2021 19:27:00 GMT
10th November..
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 14, 2021 19:30:57 GMT
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Post by antonio on Nov 14, 2021 20:27:54 GMT
Well, the muted did not come out well in his review. I would be tempted, depending on if the Audio-GD does something. The original plan was to buy the cheap one to investigate, and upgrade to the DI-20HE at some point… I'm lost on this, where is the review? |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2021 21:09:18 GMT
In my post on the 10th November.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2021 21:12:50 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2021 21:14:48 GMT
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 14, 2021 21:29:23 GMT
Yeah, not living the power supply anomalies, but I was very keen on the Singxer....until I realised it was USB in only. |
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optical
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Post by optical on Nov 14, 2021 21:48:02 GMT
Yeah, been watching him with interest for a while. He's a solid reviewer however often forms opinions listening to somewhat 'modern' music. Nothing wrong with that but some of the conclusions are not as 'real world' as would be appropriate to my listening tastes. Additionally I've heard some of the DAC's that measure really well, would I buy them, absolutely no way. As ever use the reviews/measurements as a guide, then form your own opinion after listening, granted that's not always possible. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 14, 2021 21:50:52 GMT
Yeah, been watching him with interest for a while. He's a solid reviewer however often forms opinions born of headphone listening to somewhat 'modern' music. Nothing wrong with that but some of the conclusions are not as 'real world' as would be appropriate to my listening tastes. Additionally I've heard some of the DAC's that measure really well, would I buy them, absolutely no way. As ever use the reviews/measurements as a guide, then form your own opinion after listening, granted that's not always possible. Yeah, excellent point. I liked the look of the one DDC but its lack of input options has ruled it out. I'll stick with my Mutec |
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 14, 2021 21:55:07 GMT
Golden Sound (linked to earlier in the thread) But the important thing is how it sounds… The thing that confused me is that the Golden Sound review earlier (10th) said nothing about Mutec. I do now see the links Oli posted this eve with him talking about Mutec. Will look at that. |
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 14, 2021 22:37:02 GMT
Visual aesthetics on all the others are more to my taste, not looking like a data centre. Each has it's attractions and drawbacks though. The SU6 doesn't have its own power supply. The Di-20HE is on the expensive side and no std BNC input (ACSS that didn't measure so well.) Hermes has no BNC out. Yet all have I2S which should beat all the others if using a short enough cable. In the end, what is the effect on sound? You seem all agreed on the sound improvement through the Mutec.
The fact that the Mutec measurements are not so great implies weight to Macca's comments about jitter reduction not being responsible for the big improvement in sound you are hearing.
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 15, 2021 11:55:03 GMT
Apparently the SU-6 measures better than the Mutec? What I would like to know is the difference between the Audio GD He and non HE versions from a sonic perspective. All I can say here is Kevin a listen will tell you more than my analyser can show you same goes for many other products dacs especially The HE version of the Audio is the one I would plump for personally having listened to the rest of the units I have here Worth repeating, I imagine. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 12:46:17 GMT
All I can say here is Kevin a listen will tell you more than my analyser can show you same goes for many other products dacs especially The HE version of the Audio is the one I would plump for personally having listened to the rest of the units I have here Worth repeating, I imagine. This is part the reason I have dipped my toe in the water with a cheap unit, which although it won't be as good, it shoukd let me see if it makes a difference. It will be put in my system.as the intended design use, and shoukd remove any noise from my PC, allowing my DAC to perform at the best it can. |
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Post by stevew on Nov 15, 2021 13:14:22 GMT
I like this guy too and totally respect his methodology. However right after the review there was a few comments from a guy who sounds like he also knew what he was doing relating to daisy chains of Mutecs. When the perceived improvements in sound quality is then reduced to being explained away as ‘expectation bias’ then I start to question his conclusions and rationale. Especially telling people not to waste money daisychaining. Nah.. if someone as experienced as the poster perceives an improvement then in my mind it’s likely to be because it sounds better. |
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Post by macca on Nov 15, 2021 13:42:19 GMT
what does 'experienced' mean in this context?
if he said there was no difference would you believe that too?
I really find it hard to understand why so many put so much faith in what random people say they heard. For all we know he also hears voices telling him to start fires.
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optical
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Post by optical on Nov 15, 2021 14:09:34 GMT
what does 'experienced' mean in this context? if he said there was no difference would you believe that too? I really find it hard to understand why so many put so much faith in what random people say they heard. For all we know he also hears voices telling him to start fires. Well, from someone sat at work/home (confines of regular work/family life) - I'm not able to get out and experience (or bother the crap out of people to try) these bits of kit in 'real life'. Re-clockers have been on my radar for a while, initially just assumed my system is pretty decent at jitter rejection/prevention (whatever), so didn't really investigate. Then these kind of videos started popping up as well as a few (trusted) users on this forum started singing their praises, I then HAD to find out for myself. That's a fairly simple example of how word spreads . . . . What I'm saying is, of course it is your choice to put as much or as little faith in these reports as you like but from someone in my position what other option do you have? Should we watch/listen to these reviews and then write it off as being unreliable? What on earth would the point be in that? It's not like people aren't allowed to inject a heavy dose of their own experience and logic into the equation of decision making here. I highly doubt anyone watching believes every single thing they see or hear in every review. You just develop a sense of what 'might' work and what probably won't. The more general support there is for a product, the higher the likelihood that it is not complete BS. This hobby is not as black or white, or good and bad as you're making out. It's just a case of using your judgement. I get that's hard to rely on if you don't trust your own, but I do mine so it's easier. I haven't really bought/tried anything using the same methodology and then come to the conclusion it was all a big conspiracy and I'm kidding myself! . . . . . or have I . . . EDIT - If the question is just specifically in reference to the 'daisy-chaining' of the Mutec's then I concede I have not heard them in this configuration so please disregard my comments which are more aimed at the general reports of reclocking devices and youtube/online reviews in general.
Carry on! |
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Post by stevew on Nov 15, 2021 14:12:58 GMT
what does 'experienced' mean in this context? if he said there was no difference would you believe that too? I really find it hard to understand why so many put so much faith in what random people say they heard. For all we know he also hears voices telling him to start fires. Well… I’ll cut and paste the post and response. Dénes Zoltán 10th October 2021 at 1:29 am Your measurements are quite valuable but I don’t understand why you give strong advice on something that you have neither measured, not heard. I had one Mutec MC+3 UBS when a friend, who had two, brought them over. We tried one/two/three chained. The first fed from SOtM SMS-200 ultra and connected to each other by AES/EBU. The second unit gave a very clearly audible advantage, I’d say another 50-70%. The third one another 20-30%. I know these percentages just arbitrary. This was repeatable and also worked the other way round as we started removing the units one by one. I ended up buying a second one and have not regretted it. (Plus added a Mutec Ref 10 later and also removed the SMSP and use LPS now in the units.) When I asked Christian Peters, the head engineer at Mutec, in Munich 3 years ago, why this is happening, he said, he had no clear answers, but about a dozen people came to him at the show asking the same who also had two or more units chained. Perhaps the re-clocking process will result in lower jitter when the incoming signal has lower jitter too. I know it makes little sense when the input signal is USB and is asynchronous but then why do the SOtM SMS-200 ultra and the txUSB ultra have expensive re-clocking panels in them, not to mention several high-end USB PCI cards that put emphasis on their low-jitter clocks? Reply Golden One 10th October 2021 at 1:36 am Because it simply isn’t how reclocking works. If there were a proprietary link/protocol between the MC3+ units then yes that’d need further testing, but there isn’t. It’s using standard SPDIF/AES and so the effects of stacked DDCs or even just any SPDIF source vs USB can and are demonstrated above. Even as you said, the Mutec engineer has no reason why it’d make any improvement. But I’m sure they’re quite happy for people to be buying 3-4 of their products instead of just one. In regards to the test, I’m not discounting what you heard but I’m guessing that this was a sighted test. If someone is happy to lend 2-3 MC3+ units I will test the daisychaining (both measuring, and I’ll listen sighted and blind) and if there is any demonstrable improvement I will give them $1000. This simply isn’t how reclocking works and whilst it’s not what owners of 3-4 MC3+ units will want to hear, the likely truth is that it’s just expectation bias. It’s an immensely powerful factor. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 14:19:22 GMT
If I bought 3 to 4 Mutec units, I would expect to be in the doghouse....
How coukd I explain tont the Mrs (or anybody else) that the unit is so good at what it does, I need 3 or 4 if them?
It is crazy, but it might work. I have never tried it so I am not qualified/experienced to respond factually.
If I spent 4k€ on something, it would likely to be a really good DAC and a preamp.
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 15, 2021 14:45:58 GMT
what does 'experienced' mean in this context? if he said there was no difference would you believe that too? I really find it hard to understand why so many put so much faith in what random people say they heard. For all we know he also hears voices telling him to start fires. Well… I’ll cut and paste the post and response. Dénes Zoltán 10th October 2021 at 1:29 am That and Zoltan's response that followed well illustrated the conflict. Golden said "it's just not how reclocking works." Fair enough assertion which should be able to be proved or disproved, but implies his mental model is the complete description of what these devices do. Zoltan OTOH speaks of actual listening tests and also of years of experience in rejecting items proferred and a history of having negaqtive expectations. His description and language sound credible. That is not an undiscerning random trust.
Of course there are sociopaths out there who will make a up a story and supporting facts just for attention. Some hilarious incidents of bald lies being caught out. But this doesn't sound like one of those.
For my own experience over the years I have kept a mind open to possibilities and so have tried lots of stuff that forums or reviewers were excited about. Most of those in my experience gave a false improvement or made no difference I could hear. So I returned them. A few did make a positive difference to my ears and I still use them. A few I later changed my mind about or just became too fiddly to bother with even though they benefitted. If I have expectation bias, it is more negative than positive.
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 15, 2021 14:48:28 GMT
If I bought 3 to 4 Mutec units, I would expect to be in the doghouse.... How coukd I explain tont the Mrs (or anybody else) that the unit is so good at what it does, I need 3 or 4 if them? It is crazy, but it might work. I have never tried it so I am not qualified/experienced to respond factually. If I spent 4k€ on something, it would likely to be a really good DAC and a preamp. Yep, I'd be in the doghouse too! Might be even with a new DAC under £1500 and am treading that path carefully. Good news though, Zoltan found 2 of them to be the sweet spot -- you're in luck!  |
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Post by stevew on Nov 15, 2021 14:55:22 GMT
Well… I’ll cut and paste the post and response. Dénes Zoltán 10th October 2021 at 1:29 am That and Zoltan's response that followed well illustrated the conflict. Golden said "it's just not how reclocking works." Fair enough assertion which should be able to be proved or disproved, but implies his mental model is the complete description of what these devices do. Zoltan OTOH speaks of actual listening tests and also of years of experience in rejecting items proferred and a history of having negaqtive expectations. His description and language sound credible. That is not an undiscerning random trust.
Of course there are sociopaths out there who will make a up a story and supporting facts just for attention. Some hilarious incidents of bald lies being caught out. But this doesn't sound like one of those.
For my own experience over the years I have kept a mind open to possibilities and so have tried lots of stuff that forums or reviewers were excited about. Most of those in my experience gave a false improvement or made no difference I could hear. So I returned them. A few did make a positive difference to my ears and I still use them. A few I later changed my mind about or just became too fiddly to bother with even though they benefitted. If I have expectation bias, it is more negative than positive.
Exactly.. |
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Post by macca on Nov 15, 2021 15:52:43 GMT
what does 'experienced' mean in this context? if he said there was no difference would you believe that too? I really find it hard to understand why so many put so much faith in what random people say they heard. For all we know he also hears voices telling him to start fires. The more general support there is for a product, the higher the likelihood that it is not complete BS. There is plenty of support for products which are complete B/S so I can't agree with that. You can still find people who think green marker on CDs changed the sound, or the Peter Belt tweaks like polarising cream and crocodile clips on the water pipes (even some of the so-called expert reviewers fell for that at the time). I can find a hundred other examples but you know plenty of them already I am sure. |
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Post by optical on Nov 15, 2021 15:56:17 GMT
The more general support there is for a product, the higher the likelihood that it is not complete BS. There is plenty of support for products which are complete B/S so I can't agree with that. You can still find people who think green marker on CDs changed the sound, or the Peter Belt tweaks like polarising cream and crocodile clips on the water pipes (even some of the so-called expert reviewers fell for that at the time). I can find a hundred other examples but you know plenty of them already I am sure. We're talking large majorities, not a few crackpots. So if a lot of people say it works they're probably all wrong. Okay. |
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Post by macca on Nov 15, 2021 16:13:37 GMT
They are possibly all wrong, don't put words in my mouth.
It really doesn't matter how many people are making the claims, that's indicative of nothing.
Don't get me wrong even I might decide to audition something based solely on the fact that a lot of people say it works, or that it is good. But it does not surprise me if it isn't all it's cracked up to be.
These bandwagons come and go like the seasons, I've seen it all before. A couple of years back it was 'grounding boxes', now it's reclockers, next year it will be something else.
I was always taught to approach any claim with scepticism, ask for proof, ask for evidence, take nothing for granted. But I suppose everyone has to follow their own path.
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Post by macca on Nov 15, 2021 16:17:04 GMT
BTW the Belt thing was not just a few crackpots, that was everywhere and many people including dealers and reviewers swore by them. One mag even gave a couple of things away (foils to be placed on equipment IIRC) attached to the front cover.
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Post by optical on Nov 15, 2021 17:18:46 GMT
BTW the Belt thing was not just a few crackpots, that was everywhere and many people including dealers and reviewers swore by them. One mag even gave a couple of things away (foils to be placed on equipment IIRC) attached to the front cover. Yup fair enough, to be honest I think if I'd experienced those levels of crackpot suggestions first hand, I may have a more similar attitude to yours by now. Luckily I have a half decent logic to shite'o'meter on board, albeit made of my shortish experience in hifi. We live and learn as you elude to. I'm sure I'll happen across 'discoveries' as equally potentially outrageous in the near future and when I do I'd like to think maybe I'll give it a dose of Macca skepticism! |
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Post by stevew on Nov 15, 2021 17:35:41 GMT
Funnily enough I still have a pair of ancient Royd Edens in the loft with missing Royd badges. When I bought them from a dealer in Warrington he said Peter Belt was a friend of the shop and they would sound better without the badges.
Still pisses me off as the badges got lost long ago, lol.
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Post by brucew268 on Nov 15, 2021 17:53:12 GMT
The more general support there is for a product, the higher the likelihood that it is not complete BS. There is plenty of support for products which are complete B/S so I can't agree with that. You can still find people who think green marker on CDs changed the sound, or the Peter Belt tweaks like polarising cream and crocodile clips on the water pipes (even some of the so-called expert reviewers fell for that at the time). I can find a hundred other examples but you know plenty of them already I am sure. You mean you don't keep all your photos in your freezer for better sound?! |
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