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Post by lurch on Nov 10, 2021 19:39:51 GMT
There is one for sale over here as well. You are tempting me to try one. Go for it, it's a cheap experiment to take a punt on.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2021 19:46:50 GMT
The guy want €250 for it. It was only €330 new.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 10, 2021 22:00:04 GMT
Is there any truth in this? Yes. USB is the devil. I have been saying this for so long it's untrue. The Pi2AES doesn't accept stored files as far as I know. If it did.......
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2021 8:16:59 GMT
Is there any truth in this? Not really. As he says at the start 'This is not about what's audible.' - He's a smart bloke he knows none of these devices will really improve sound quality but... he's got money to make from his videos and that means telling the punters what they want to hear - which is 'Just plug in this magic box and hey presto better sound' By the time they get to the end of the video they've forgotten his little disclaimer at the start.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2021 9:41:06 GMT
Is there any truth in this? Not really. As he says at the start 'This is not about what's audible.' - He's a smart bloke he knows none of these devices will really improve sound quality but... he's got money to make from his videos and that means telling the punters what they want to hear - which is 'Just plug in this magic box and hey presto better sound' By the time they get to the end of the video they've forgotten his little disclaimer at the start. Are timing issues audible? I think they are, and it's a point he makes when talking about the human sensitivity to this. He actually says the video isnt about what people say is audible or not (below 100db etc) - attempting to avoid crap all over the comments section. The video is about measuring what device does the job the best and i think that is what he trying to get across. He also says the cheapest device sounds the best.
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2021 10:02:02 GMT
timing issues are audible if they are sufficiently large. But they are not remotely so except in an edge case situation which would actually be difficult to create with modern equipment. I pointed out previously that no-one can hear jitter 100dB below signal. It's an absurd claim, like saying you can hear your mate shouting you from Australia.
His listening is done without any controls so his verdict on 'what's best' isn't any more valid than anyone else's.
He knows that his measurements don't show any differences that would be remotely audible hence his disclaimer at the start. He wouldn't get remotely as many views if he said 'Actually none of this stuff makes any real difference.' That's just not the verdict a lot people want to hear.
In see he has now taken delivery of a switching box so he can do blind comparisons so I look forward to that. First step is to determine if there is a real audible difference, then go looking for the reason for it.
Not knocking him. He's a very smart bloke and presents well, but he's also young and inexperienced.
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Post by misterc on Nov 11, 2021 10:14:14 GMT
He's a lot more savvy than you think Martin tech wise plus he actaully goes into really depth with his measurments unlike rabid dog squad. While I also find some of the musings 'interesting' at least he is non agenderised and really does try and do the best he can, but I agree he lacks real world experiance but he understands this at least and does explain things for the layman to grasp in a good way
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optical
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Post by optical on Nov 11, 2021 10:23:48 GMT
timing issues are audible if they are sufficiently large. But they are not remotely so except in an edge case situation which would actually be difficult to create with modern equipment. I pointed out previously that no-one can hear jitter 100dB below signal. It's an absurd claim, like saying you can hear your mate shouting you from Australia. His listening is done without any controls so his verdict on 'what's best' isn't any more valid than anyone else's. He knows that his measurements don't show any differences that would be remotely audible hence his disclaimer at the start. He wouldn't get remotely as many views if he said 'Actually none of this stuff makes any real difference.' That's just not the verdict a lot people want to hear. In see he has now taken delivery of a switching box so he can do blind comparisons so I look forward to that. First step is to determine if there is a real audible difference, then go looking for the reason for it. Not knocking him. He's a very smart bloke and presents well, but he's also young and inexperienced. Yeah I've been watching him for a while now, he has found a nice little review/demonstrate niche in the market, adding a lot of professionalism to the usual get-it-out-box - review - conclude blueprint. Can't help people being young and inexperienced Macca, although a lot of the music he plays is very questionable (not that I can talk!) but the tracks do usually serve a purpose eg: this bassline comes out very well on this DAC or the highs are better on this DAC etc. I like that kind of analysis where he's trying to highlight any good points of the products against a reference or similarly priced product. His calling out of MQA was legendary and won him a lot of fans . . . but not at various MQA supporting sites and manufacturers. Not many older people of experience doing anything like that around though are there? Re the video, I think he has his finger on the pulse and sales of re-clocking/USB converting devices have absolutely rocketed recently. As a lot of us are finding, re-clockers sound 'literally' like they might do a bit more than what's being measured (or indeed is measurable).
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2021 10:26:48 GMT
He's a lot more savvy than you think Martin tech wise plus he actaully goes into really depth with his measurments unlike rabid dog squad. While I also find some of the musings 'interesting' at least he is non agenderised and really does try and do the best he can, but I agree he lacks real world experiance but he understands this at least and does explain things for the layman to grasp in a good way I think he is savvy, I thought that I pretty much said so. Of course he has an agenda, which is to make proper money from his Youtube channel. You won't do that by saying everything sounds the same. We'll see where he goes with his blind testing. Maybe he will uncover something of interest. I would like to see that, I just think it's unlikely.
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2021 10:34:04 GMT
timing issues are audible if they are sufficiently large. But they are not remotely so except in an edge case situation which would actually be difficult to create with modern equipment. I pointed out previously that no-one can hear jitter 100dB below signal. It's an absurd claim, like saying you can hear your mate shouting you from Australia. His listening is done without any controls so his verdict on 'what's best' isn't any more valid than anyone else's. He knows that his measurements don't show any differences that would be remotely audible hence his disclaimer at the start. He wouldn't get remotely as many views if he said 'Actually none of this stuff makes any real difference.' That's just not the verdict a lot people want to hear. In see he has now taken delivery of a switching box so he can do blind comparisons so I look forward to that. First step is to determine if there is a real audible difference, then go looking for the reason for it. Not knocking him. He's a very smart bloke and presents well, but he's also young and inexperienced. Yeah I've been watching him for a while now, he has found a nice little review/demonstrate niche in the market, adding a lot of professionalism to the usual get-it-out-box - review - conclude blueprint. Can't help people being young and inexperienced Macca, although a lot of the music he plays is very questionable (not that I can talk!) but the tracks do usually serve a purpose eg: this bassline comes out very well on this DAC or the highs are better on this DAC etc. I like that kind of analysis where he's trying to highlight any good points of the products against a reference or similarly priced product. His calling out of MQA was legendary and won him a lot of fans . . . but not at various MQA supporting sites and manufacturers. Not many older people of experience doing anything like that around though are there? Re the video, I think he has his finger on the pulse and sales of re-clocking/USB converting devices have absolutely rocketed recently. As a lot of us are finding, re-clockers sound 'literally' like they might do a bit more than what's being measured (or indeed is measurable). You keep clinging to this idea that there might be things that cannot be measured, but a music signal is just an electrical voltage and the idea that there is something about that which is yet undiscovered is highly unlikely. I agree it is possible that there are effects that are not being measured, but that's not the same thing. First stage is blind test to see if there really is an audible difference. then look for stuff to measure. So far not seen any blind testing on Mutec-type devices. Sure people hear differences with them, but people also hear differences with magic stones, cable lifters and all sorts of crazy crap. So that's no proof of anything. My thousand quid stays in my pocket until we have some real evidence. Then I'll pay attention.
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Post by optical on Nov 11, 2021 10:41:21 GMT
Yeah I've been watching him for a while now, he has found a nice little review/demonstrate niche in the market, adding a lot of professionalism to the usual get-it-out-box - review - conclude blueprint. Can't help people being young and inexperienced Macca, although a lot of the music he plays is very questionable (not that I can talk!) but the tracks do usually serve a purpose eg: this bassline comes out very well on this DAC or the highs are better on this DAC etc. I like that kind of analysis where he's trying to highlight any good points of the products against a reference or similarly priced product. His calling out of MQA was legendary and won him a lot of fans . . . but not at various MQA supporting sites and manufacturers. Not many older people of experience doing anything like that around though are there? Re the video, I think he has his finger on the pulse and sales of re-clocking/USB converting devices have absolutely rocketed recently. As a lot of us are finding, re-clockers sound 'literally' like they might do a bit more than what's being measured (or indeed is measurable). You keep clinging to this idea that there might be things that cannot be measured, but a music signal is just an electrical voltage and the idea that there is something about that which is yet undiscovered is highly unlikely. I agree it is possible that there are effects that are not being measured, but that's not the same thing. First stage is blind test to see if there really is an audible difference. then look for stuff to measure. So far not seen any blind testing on Mutec-type devices. Sure people hear differences with them, but people also hear differences with magic stones, cable lifters and all sorts of crazy crap. So that's no proof of anything. My thousand quid stays in my pocket until we have some real evidence. Then I'll pay attention. I have not specified 'electrically' measurable or otherwise. You can't measure musical 'talent' or 'soul' but you can certainly hear it. It's a closed minded approach to assume that at this exact moment in time we have nailed the science of measurements in general so I'd say it's much more likely that we have not. I'm not really 'clinging' to anything to be honest, it's just what I think. Which is different, as your choice of phrase there imply's my argument is being eroded away by evidence to the contrary, it is/has not.
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Post by firebottle on Nov 11, 2021 12:00:32 GMT
There is no measurement suite in existence today that can replicate all the nuances that human ears can detect, period.
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2021 12:13:16 GMT
on the contrary human perception is highly unreliable, that's a demonstrable fact.
We perceive all sorts of things that have no basis in reality. That's why people are so certain they hear differences with the wackiest of tweaks, like crystals on the power cable. They aren't lying or making it up, they really do hear a difference, and so might you or I if we tried it.
once you accept one impossibility the rest come easy and pretty soon you're spending hundreds on magic fuses and saying the orange one is better than the blue. There's a point where that moves from harmless hobby/pastime experimentation to mental illness, not sure where that point is though.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2021 12:16:21 GMT
If the person who hears the result of these tweaks is happy buying them, then who are we to argue? You are of the opinion that they do nothing, and perhaps it is you who is wrong?
Who knows?
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2021 12:18:31 GMT
If the person who hears the result of these tweaks is happy buying them, then who are we to argue? You are of the opinion that they do nothing, and perhaps it is you who is wrong? Who knows? well we do know but that's by the by. I don't mind what people spend their money on but don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2021 12:24:27 GMT
For me the whole point of the exercise is to get better sound. To do that it's necessary to know what will contribute to that goal and what will not.
Given none of us have unlimited money every penny spent on something that does nothing is a penny that could have been spent on something that does.
There's too much time and energy spent on forums discussing stuff that does nothing and practically none spent on the stuff that does. I think because many of the things that really do improve sound are not simple applications, you can't just order a thing off the internet, plug it in and hey presto. Things like room treatment where it takes time and effort to implement and a lot of reading, researching and learning to find out what to implement and where.
Quick fix society.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2021 12:28:53 GMT
If I can hear the difference by using a certain product, and you can't, who is wrong? It is all about perception, hearing level/ability, system integration, system/room interface etc. I don't think you can measure all of it. I don't have any measuring equipment available to me, but I know when I can hear a difference or not. I don't need someone else to tell me it makes no difference. They can try, but it won't make any difference, as I do not think we can explain everything.
As always, if intrigued enough, I will try something, and if it does not work, it gets sent back or sold on. It is that simple for me, although there are things I refuse to try, such as green pens on CD, crystals in a tube, wonder fuses etc.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2021 12:32:47 GMT
For me the whole point of the exercise is to get better sound. To do that it's necessary to know what will contribute to that goal and what will not. Given none of us have unlimited money every penny spent on something that does nothing is a penny that could have been spent on something that does. There's too much time and energy spent on forums discussing stuff that does nothing and practically none spent on the stuff that does. I think because many of the things that really do improve sound are not simple applications, you can't just order a thing off the internet, plug it in and hey presto. Things like room treatment where it takes time and effort to implement and a lot of reading, researching and learning to find out what to implement and where. Quick fix society. I agree about room treatment, but unless you have a dedicated listening room, then it is very likely going to get refused by the rest of the family. This is part of the reason I have no HiFi in the lounge, as the wife does not really understand my love of music. She would rather watch TV.
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Post by firebottle on Nov 11, 2021 12:39:57 GMT
on the contrary human perception is highly unreliable, that's a demonstrable fact. It isn't measurable though is it, that's the point. Forget measurements as an arbiter of how good something sounds.
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2021 12:46:35 GMT
on the contrary human perception is highly unreliable, that's a demonstrable fact. It isn't measurable though is it, that's the point. Forget measurements as an arbiter of how good something sounds. I agree, you can't judge how you will feel with the measurements. if I don't like the sound, if it isn't doing it for me, all the measuring in the world won't change that. But using the ears, sighted, no level matching, to compare little details like the length of the reverb tails or something similar, on two different components, that's a method full of pitfalls.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2021 12:48:16 GMT
If it pleases your ears, why is it wrong? This hobby is all about enjoying the music for me, so that is all that counts.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2021 12:52:52 GMT
on the contrary human perception is highly unreliable, that's a demonstrable fact. Is it measurable? A show of hands during a demonstration of an unfamiliar system in strange surroundings is not valid in my book. There are too many variables. This is why home loans are critical for me.
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2021 13:41:57 GMT
on the contrary human perception is highly unreliable, that's a demonstrable fact. Is it measurable? A show of hands during a demonstration of an unfamiliar system in strange surroundings is not valid in my book. There are too many variables. This is why home loans are critical for me. Not sure where you are coming from with this show of hands thing? Flaws in perception are not 'measurable' per se but they are demonstrable in controlled experiments. Sight, sound, taste, smell, touch are all fallible. Descartes realised this and he was living back in 1500 and something. Much investigation has been done since, it's not really in any doubt that we can all be easily fooled. Just knowing you changed something will give the mind the cue to create a difference even if there is none. of course sometimes there really is a difference, but you have to used controls if you want to know for sure. That's not practical on a casual hobby basis I grant you but we should still take it into account before proclaiming that all sorts of improbable and impossible things are real 'because I heard them.' I like to give my own subjective account of what I perceive and I enjoy reading other people's subjective accounts too. But once it strays into the realms of impossibility, or they start making wild technical claims that are purely based on such casual listening, that's where I draw the line and start calling bullshit. that's when it moves into the realms of deception.
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optical
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Post by optical on Nov 11, 2021 13:57:30 GMT
Is it measurable? A show of hands during a demonstration of an unfamiliar system in strange surroundings is not valid in my book. There are too many variables. This is why home loans are critical for me. Not sure where you are coming from with this show of hands thing? Flaws in perception are not 'measurable' per se but they are demonstrable in controlled experiments. Sight, sound, taste, smell, touch are all fallible. Descartes realised this and he was living back in 1500 and something. Much investigation has been done since, it's not really in any doubt that we can all be easily fooled. Just knowing you changed something will give the mind the cue to create a difference even if there is none. of course sometimes there really is a difference, but you have to used controls if you want to know for sure. That's not practical on a casual hobby basis I grant you but we should still take it into account before proclaiming that all sorts of improbable and impossible things are real 'because I heard them.' I like to give my own subjective account of what I perceive and I enjoy reading other people's subjective accounts too. But once it strays into the realms of impossibility, or they start making wild technical claims that are purely based on such casual listening, that's where I draw the line and start calling bullshit. that's when it moves into the realms of deception. I'm really struggling to find any of these statements straying into "the realms of impossibility" or indeed any "wild technical claims". Deception? Did you really mean to type that? Someone saying something sounded different/better but cannot explain why is none of these things. You seem to think if a rock solid scientific explanation is not offered along with a subjective opinion it's against the law or something.
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Post by antonio on Nov 11, 2021 14:05:31 GMT
"Not sure where you are coming from with this show of hands thing?" Have you never been to a demonstration, and the demonstrator asks for a show of hands which was preferred, number 1 or number 2, I have. Unsurprisingly I was in the minority, something like 3 to 24 Who was right and who was wrong, I suspect nobody since it is what the individual prefers.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2021 14:09:58 GMT
One question Macca. You are of the opinion that these reclocking devices do nothing. Have you tried one? If not, I will be interested in what you think after you have tried one.
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Post by misterc on Nov 11, 2021 14:19:47 GMT
If the person who hears the result of these tweaks is happy buying them, then who are we to argue? You are of the opinion that they do nothing, and perhaps it is you who is wrong? Who knows? well we do know but that's by the by. I don't mind what people spend their money on but don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. To be fair Martin that is exactly what you do when someone mentions they can hear a difference when your own preception and thought precess indicate to you the exact opposite.
So I would ask you to refrain from while jabbering in my ear while I am listening to music.
If I was a customer at any dealers and it was suggested I was listening incorrectly as I didn't get the naim sound or a single piece of equipment; I would sure as hell make my feelings know, fear not.
So based on your musings it looks like they are a great many self deulded, non comprehending or logically understanding folks on this board that have tried many different devices, from different sources with totally different systems many miles apart that have no connection with one another in a physical sense. All coming to a very similar conclusion hummmmmmmmmmm is there a pattern emerging here I wonder? You all wrong and I'm the only one with logical congnitions? Or is there more to it.
On the next weeks exciting episode..............................
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Post by optical on Nov 11, 2021 14:30:43 GMT
Interesting . . . .
I actually had this typed out earlier but refrained from sending it, but it links on from misterc's post . . . .
A while ago there was a thread regarding the Benchmark DAC1 (I think) so quite a while ago. Anyway, multiple users from different forums and at varying times (so completely unconnected) noticed how much of a leap in performance could be obtained when changing/upgrading it's power cable.
The power cable ney-sayers would obviously put it down to 'expectation bias' etc but could not explain how different people from unrelated forums all experienced the same thing at the same time.
Did a load of people just experience a pandemic of expectation bias simultaneously?!?!
Granted it is not the same as the re-clocking/jitter argument (and may have actually shown up an issue/drawback with this particular DAC) but it did illustrate that some long held beliefs can quickly be exercised without explanation due to mass shared experience. It calls into question the validity of a certain path of argument.
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2021 16:09:31 GMT
OK boys and girls, This is a forum for people to discuss what they HEAR. NOW....here is the crux of the matter: Placebos. In studies, test groups that believed they were taking a "pioneering new medicine" achieved a higher % of people improving their condition. Those that did not believe in the medicine, or were negatively receptive of the placebo actually showed a decline in condition. That is the power of the mind. It is indisputable. I make no attempt to suggest otherwise. Where HiFi is concerned, if i put a piece of equipment into my system, listen to it an adjudge it to improve the performance, increase my enjoyment of the system and the music being played....that's all that matters. I also want to be able to have a conversation about Cables, DDC's, DAC's, ANYTHING that people suggest makes no difference, without continually being told I'm imagining it and need to AB test it. I don't agree with AB testing as the ONLY definitive method of comparison. It is bollocks. There are other forums out there for that sort of approach for HiFi. Measurements have their place. Absolutely they do. So does bias theory, Aural perception, cognitive ability and everything else this hobby encompasses, and i welcome discussion on any of those topics, But they do not exist to continually turn every single thread into a f@cking argument about AB testing and the theoretical limits of Audible Jitter. To be honest, it's pissing me off, and i know it's pissing off other members too. I understand what is being said. I understand that Publications are using Jitter as the new marketing hotbed (nothing new there) I understand the theoretical standpoint of audible jitter and i also understand that in complete disregard of the science, the Mutec or other DDC's are having positive effects in peoples systems. The old adage of don't knock it until you have tried it applies here. I also understand that macca made a very good point in regard to the marketing of the Mutec, in that whatever it is doing, it is unlikely to be the change to Jitter levels. As far as i am concerned, no one has sufficiently disproved this, or proved WHY the Mutec works. But its irrelevant. It works, and i dont care why. It will make no difference to me whatsoever. SO, just to be crystal clear: This forum is for people to discuss what they hear. We are not here to tell people what they hear, or what we think they can or can't hear. Give this A/B testing lark a rest....please. Or i'll turn all the phrases into random words and your posts won't make any sense: Example: Jitter is inaudible past -100db Auto edited Dogshit is inaudible past -100db
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2021 16:32:44 GMT
Personally I did not see this as an argument, but a healthy discussion.
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