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Post by robbiegong on Mar 10, 2022 21:27:23 GMT
Ok, He says it's these and that the Mrs isnt happy   |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 10, 2022 21:29:41 GMT
Ok, He says it's these and that the Mrs isnt happy Hahahaha.....jeezooz they are.... significant 😂😂 I'd love to hear them though |
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Post by brucew268 on Mar 10, 2022 22:25:21 GMT
Ok, He says it's these and that the Mrs isnt happy  Maybe she's just annoyed that there is a headboard mounted to the wall of the lounge... or that the bedroom has been turned into a listening room and where will they sleep tonight?! |
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Post by macca on Mar 11, 2022 7:33:21 GMT
She's sleeping at her mother's, probably.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2022 8:20:55 GMT
Ok, He says it's these and that the Mrs isnt happy  Maybe she's just annoyed that there is a headboard mounted to the wall of the lounge... or that the bedroom has been turned into a listening room and where will they sleep tonight?! Just lie them down, and sleep on them. They look big enough. |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 11, 2022 8:22:32 GMT
Haha chaps I am in the middle of painting the Mrs bedroom so you can imagine the pressure!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 11, 2022 8:48:29 GMT
Haha chaps I am in the middle of painting the Mrs bedroom so you can imagine the pressure! Nice clean lines Jim! |
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Post by macca on Mar 11, 2022 9:19:17 GMT
Huffing the paint will improve the sound quality of your system exponentially.
Warning: may cause brain damage.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 11, 2022 9:45:26 GMT
Just sat down for cup of tea , now got to take off wardrobe doors and paint in garage. Screws have not been out the hinges for 50 years and painted over so thats going to be fun!
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Post by karma67 on Mar 12, 2022 9:26:39 GMT
nice one jim,gotta love a free upgrade!
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Post by macca on Mar 12, 2022 9:29:23 GMT
I was preparing to cover my eyes, very relieved to see I don't have to.
From what I can gather from my reading about room treatment there's some debate over whether you should have absorption or diffusion on the wall behind the speakers (the 'front wall' as the yanks call it). I think either is better than nothing though as you have discovered.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2022 9:41:54 GMT
nice one jim,gotta love a free upgrade! Sofas are not free. |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 12, 2022 10:02:03 GMT
I was preparing to cover my eyes, very relieved to see I don't have to. From what I can gather from my reading about room treatment there's some debate over whether you should have absorption or diffusion on the wall behind the speakers (the 'front wall' as the yanks call it). I think either is better than nothing though as you have discovered. Diffusion behind the speakers and Bass traps in the corners also behind the speakers and in the ceiling if possible.. First reflection absorption just a few feet in front and to the side of the speakers. Diffusion on your back wall. I have found that the less echo/flutter you get in the room helps but don't go too far and kill all reflections. Difficult balance I feel which can only be done through trial and evaluation a little at a time. You want a nice balance between live and dead sound. I would say from what I have experienced in a really well sorted room you need to damp it considerably almost to the point where you cant hear reflection from a hand clap. The trick is to try and do this with home friendly materials and products without the other half giving you grief!  |
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Post by macca on Mar 12, 2022 10:34:45 GMT
I was preparing to cover my eyes, very relieved to see I don't have to. From what I can gather from my reading about room treatment there's some debate over whether you should have absorption or diffusion on the wall behind the speakers (the 'front wall' as the yanks call it). I think either is better than nothing though as you have discovered. I would say from what I have experienced in a really well sorted room you need to damp it considerably almost to the point where you cant hear reflection from a hand clap. I agree that's what I have found too. I shudder when I see pictures of very expensive systems in rooms with hardly any furniture, hard floors, acres of windows with no covering or just blinds. Losing fifty percent of the potential performance. But they've spent a fortune on stuff that either does nothing or has a very marginal effect. Obviously WAF can be a factor plus even the enthusiast himself may not want a ton of room treatment in his living environment, but you can get big improvements just using furniture with plenty of padding, thick curtains and carpet and rugs. All the things that are out of fashion in the contemporary idiom. |
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Post by macca on Mar 12, 2022 10:40:05 GMT
I sometimes wonder if the 'digital glare' people complain about is a result of their room being far too reflective. Don't have any evidence to back that up though.
Personally I find that just closing the (thick) curtains on the window behind me calms everything down quite a bit.
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Post by jimbo on Mar 12, 2022 12:04:02 GMT
I sometimes wonder if the 'digital glare' people complain about is a result of their room being far too reflective. Don't have any evidence to back that up though. Personally I find that just closing the (thick) curtains on the window behind me calms everything down quite a bit. Absolutely right Martin regarding digital. We were listening to some last night and even Helen remarked how good it sounded. Definitely lost some of the digital glare and intensity, almost rounded it off a little since I put the extra Sofa in!  I think we can spend a ton of cash on trying to make our equipment fit the room rather than make the room fit the equipment! |
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Post by macca on Mar 12, 2022 12:24:46 GMT
It's a neglected topic isn't it? I think because so many people have to share their space with the family and assume room treatment means egg boxes on the walls which would never happen so they dismiss it as a possible avenue of improvement. But it doesn't have to be egg boxes on the walls.
I'd say the difference from going from a bad acoustic to a good one is way more than even upgrading the loudspeakers. Really should not be underestimated.
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Post by macca on Mar 12, 2022 12:31:28 GMT
Whilst I would not usually recommend the PS Audio site as a source of good advice these PS Audio speaker installation videos are interesting as they talk quite a bit about room treatment:
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Post by karma67 on Mar 12, 2022 12:31:33 GMT
i keep meaning to make a few panels to try them at the first reflection points and behind the speakers.
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optical
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Post by optical on Mar 12, 2022 12:35:36 GMT
One subject I do actually know a little bit about now. Mostly thanks to this guy. Detailed enough but also puts things in relatively layman's terms. He's the best I've found. By far. A lot of videos are tailored to studios and recording/mixing, you don't want that. This guy's company does high end listening rooms for people who want to tap into the actual performance of their hifi. youtube.com/c/Acousticfields101 |
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Post by macca on Mar 12, 2022 13:10:15 GMT
I know what you mean about the treble, becomes less obvious but more natural.
I think it is pretty hard to 'kill' a room by using too much treatment, especially if it is soft furnishings, carpets, thick curtains and so on and not professional treatments. Optical might have an opinion as I think he has gone further than any of us. But I'd expect only improvements from adding more, if you don't get your absorption and diffusion mixed up...
I've got some absorption at the first reflection point of the right hand speaker as that is close to the chimney breast. In theory you're killing out of phase HF reflections that are going to arrive at you only a fraction of the time it takes the direct sound, and will cause timbre and imaging to deteriorate.
But from reading up I see that diffusion rather than absorption might be better in that spot. By killing the reflections entirely with absorption you might diminish the soundstage (not the same thing as the imaging) since that partly relies on reflected sound in the room to expand it beyond the speakers.
Diffusion on the other hand won't kill the reflections just scatter them so they arrive late enough that your brain does not confuse them with the direct sound but preserves the wide soundstage we want.
Anyway just one of many things in this subject to ponder on.
The only other spots I've applied specific treatment as opposed to just using natural furnishings are the two corners either side of the listening position. I was getting HF bounce off of both corners. To the extent where I would be looking around thinking it was a noise in the room or just outside. Quite distracting.
One corner has a big roll of loft insulation stuck in it and the other side where the door is has 'proper' foam absorption panels on the door. It works.
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optical
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Post by optical on Mar 12, 2022 13:29:53 GMT
I know what you mean about the treble, becomes less obvious but more natural. I think it is pretty hard to 'kill' a room by using too much treatment, especially if it is soft furnishings, carpets, thick curtains and so on and not professional treatments. Optical might have an opinion as I think he has gone further than any of us. But I'd expect only improvements from adding more, if you don't get your absorption and diffusion mixed up... I've got some absorption at the first reflection point of the right hand speaker as that is close to the chimney breast. In theory you're killing out of phase HF reflections that are going to arrive at you only a fraction of the time it takes the direct sound, and will cause timbre and imaging to deteriorate. But from reading up I see that diffusion rather than absorption might be better in that spot. By killing the reflections entirely with absorption you might diminish the soundstage (not the same thing as the imaging) since that partly relies on reflected sound in the room to expand it beyond the speakers. Diffusion on the other hand won't kill the reflections just scatter them so they arrive late enough that your brain does not confuse them with the direct sound but preserves the wide soundstage we want. Anyway just one of many things in this subject to ponder on. The only other spots I've applied specific treatment as opposed to just using natural furnishings are the two corners either side of the listening position. I was getting HF bounce off of both corners. To the extent where I would be looking around thinking it was a noise in the room or just outside. Quite distracting. One corner has a big roll of loft insulation stuck in it and the other side where the door is has 'proper' foam absorption panels on the door. It works. Great point about abortion and diffusion Martin, they are are both necessary in nearly all environments to a more or lesser degree. It's important to understand why both need to be applied as they both do important (but different) jobs. Within a domestic environment there is only so much you can do, some very good points have already been made about what acceptable furnishings can be used. However, ultimately if you want to control the room and maximise your hifi's potential, it ain't gonna be that pretty unless budget is very high. If you have a dedicated listening room you can design almost from the ground up you can incorporate material like rockwool into the corners and then just have a thin membrane in front of it painted the same colour as the wall, it can look pretty slick. Anyway, the sky (and your wallet/endeavour/WAF) is the limit here, a little can go a long way if your room is naturally sympathetic acoustically, but for maximum effect (like anything) big changes to most room have to occur. In my experience anyway. Once the bass and treble are controlled and balanced the reflection points should be treated, this really comes into play to help the speakers extend outside the room boundaries, reverb and decay can be increased, dramatically in some cases making the room appear much larger than it actually is. That's where the magic really starts to happen..... |
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Post by antonio on Mar 12, 2022 14:07:07 GMT
Thinking about making up this gentleman's panels, seems simple enough and not expensive
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Post by karma67 on Mar 12, 2022 15:49:58 GMT
Thinking about making up this gentleman's panels, seems simple enough and not expensive yep although the 1 in the video is twisted to F#ck! |
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Post by antonio on Mar 12, 2022 16:15:55 GMT
I will try and do better  |
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Post by karma67 on Mar 12, 2022 16:41:05 GMT
I will try and do better  why? did you make it? lol |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 12, 2022 17:04:09 GMT
I know what you mean about the treble, becomes less obvious but more natural. I think it is pretty hard to 'kill' a room by using too much treatment, especially if it is soft furnishings, carpets, thick curtains and so on and not professional treatments. Optical might have an opinion as I think he has gone further than any of us. But I'd expect only improvements from adding more, if you don't get your absorption and diffusion mixed up... I've got some absorption at the first reflection point of the right hand speaker as that is close to the chimney breast. In theory you're killing out of phase HF reflections that are going to arrive at you only a fraction of the time it takes the direct sound, and will cause timbre and imaging to deteriorate. But from reading up I see that diffusion rather than absorption might be better in that spot. By killing the reflections entirely with absorption you might diminish the soundstage (not the same thing as the imaging) since that partly relies on reflected sound in the room to expand it beyond the speakers. Diffusion on the other hand won't kill the reflections just scatter them so they arrive late enough that your brain does not confuse them with the direct sound but preserves the wide soundstage we want. Anyway just one of many things in this subject to ponder on. The only other spots I've applied specific treatment as opposed to just using natural furnishings are the two corners either side of the listening position. I was getting HF bounce off of both corners. To the extent where I would be looking around thinking it was a noise in the room or just outside. Quite distracting. One corner has a big roll of loft insulation stuck in it and the other side where the door is has 'proper' foam absorption panels on the door. It works. Great point about abortion and diffusion Martin, they are are both necessary in nearly all environments to a more or lesser degree. It's important to understand why both need to be applied as they both do important (but different) jobs. Within a domestic environment there is only so much you can do, some very good points have already been made about what acceptable furnishings can be used. However, ultimately if you want to control the room and maximise your hifi's potential, it ain't gonna be that pretty unless budget is very high. If you have a dedicated listening room you can design almost from the ground up you can incorporate material like rockwool into the corners and then just have a thin membrane in front of it painted the same colour as the wall, it can look pretty slick. Anyway, the sky (and your wallet/endeavour/WAF) is the limit here, a little can go a long way if your room is naturally sympathetic acoustically, but for maximum effect (like anything) big changes to most room have to occur. In my experience anyway. Once the bass and treble are controlled and balanced the reflection points should be treated, this really comes into play to help the speakers extend outside the room boundaries, reverb and decay can be increased, dramatically in some cases making the room appear much larger than it actually is. That's where the magic really starts to happen..... If you want to see some of the most extreme Acoustic room modification/build take a look at my mates place. This is his third room and I have seen the finished result. Stunning. I have spent many hours in his other rooms listening to some great stuff never mind state of the art acoustically controlled environment. This was his last blog post on the build of his third room but the other blog threads are worth a read. sonoritydesign.co.uk/index.php/the-final-straight-well-hopefully/ |
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optical
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Post by optical on Mar 12, 2022 17:14:42 GMT
Great point about abortion and diffusion Martin, they are are both necessary in nearly all environments to a more or lesser degree. It's important to understand why both need to be applied as they both do important (but different) jobs. Within a domestic environment there is only so much you can do, some very good points have already been made about what acceptable furnishings can be used. However, ultimately if you want to control the room and maximise your hifi's potential, it ain't gonna be that pretty unless budget is very high. If you have a dedicated listening room you can design almost from the ground up you can incorporate material like rockwool into the corners and then just have a thin membrane in front of it painted the same colour as the wall, it can look pretty slick. Anyway, the sky (and your wallet/endeavour/WAF) is the limit here, a little can go a long way if your room is naturally sympathetic acoustically, but for maximum effect (like anything) big changes to most room have to occur. In my experience anyway. Once the bass and treble are controlled and balanced the reflection points should be treated, this really comes into play to help the speakers extend outside the room boundaries, reverb and decay can be increased, dramatically in some cases making the room appear much larger than it actually is. That's where the magic really starts to happen..... If you want to see some of the most extreme Acoustic room modification/build take a look at my mates place. This is his third room and I have seen the finished result. Stunning. I have spent many hours in his other rooms listening to some great stuff never mind state of the art acoustically controlled environment. This was his last blog post on the build of his third room but the other blog threads are worth a read. sonoritydesign.co.uk/index.php/the-final-straight-well-hopefully/That looks brilliant Jim. Absolutely proper, I will have a good look and give it the time it deserves when I can this evening. I've barely scratched the surface by comparison. The wall wiring alone is an absolute pleasure. |
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Post by antonio on Mar 12, 2022 17:24:42 GMT
I will try and do better why? did you make it? lol Not yet, maybe in a few weeks time, but with you saying he had not made a very good job, my reply "I will try and do better" Few bits to be done before anything would be made or purchased, going to experiment with speaker positioning again and removing the sofa from the room. |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 12, 2022 17:42:19 GMT
Great point about abortion and diffusion Martin, they are are both necessary in nearly all environments to a more or lesser degree. It's important to understand why both need to be applied as they both do important (but different) jobs. Within a domestic environment there is only so much you can do, some very good points have already been made about what acceptable furnishings can be used. However, ultimately if you want to control the room and maximise your hifi's potential, it ain't gonna be that pretty unless budget is very high. If you have a dedicated listening room you can design almost from the ground up you can incorporate material like rockwool into the corners and then just have a thin membrane in front of it painted the same colour as the wall, it can look pretty slick. Anyway, the sky (and your wallet/endeavour/WAF) is the limit here, a little can go a long way if your room is naturally sympathetic acoustically, but for maximum effect (like anything) big changes to most room have to occur. In my experience anyway. Once the bass and treble are controlled and balanced the reflection points should be treated, this really comes into play to help the speakers extend outside the room boundaries, reverb and decay can be increased, dramatically in some cases making the room appear much larger than it actually is. That's where the magic really starts to happen..... If you want to see some of the most extreme Acoustic room modification/build take a look at my mates place. This is his third room and I have seen the finished result. Stunning. I have spent many hours in his other rooms listening to some great stuff never mind state of the art acoustically controlled environment. This was his last blog post on the build of his third room but the other blog threads are worth a read. sonoritydesign.co.uk/index.php/the-final-straight-well-hopefully/Hope you enjoy the read. Steve is a great guy and probably one of the few guys on the planet who has gone this far as the cost alone is eye watering. I have seen his finished room 3 which is detailed in his last blog and it is unbelievable even in comparison to his other 2 listening rooms. Maybe I could get you over there one day. You would find it a very interesting experience for sure. |
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