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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 11:08:03 GMT
As part of my thinking of replacing my DAC, I found a few articles based on the Sabre DAC chips that were complaining about digital glare?
Has anybody experienced this?
I see that the Topping D50 measures very well on ASR, and I was thinking of buying one in the new year to compare to my SEG. But, the idea of digital glare is quite off putting.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 2, 2019 12:02:56 GMT
As part of my thinking of replacing my DAC, I found a few articles based on the Sabre DAC chips that were complaining about digital glare? Has anybody experienced this? I see that the Topping D50 measures very well on ASR, and I was thinking of buying one in the new year to compare to my SEG. But, the idea of digital glare is quite off putting. Glare would put me off too but having heard one, unwittingly, it did not suffer any glare at all. I was mega impressed by it. That was Via CDP, into a KIN preamp and a Neurochrome 286 feeding Quad 57s |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 13:55:47 GMT
As part of my thinking of replacing my DAC, I found a few articles based on the Sabre DAC chips that were complaining about digital glare? Has anybody experienced this? I see that the Topping D50 measures very well on ASR, and I was thinking of buying one in the new year to compare to my SEG. But, the idea of digital glare is quite off putting. I believe The topping uses the same DAC as my Oppo 205. As far as the sound being bright and perceived glare it all depends on what it is hooked up to (purely using as a DAC). It sounded bright when used in a budget set up (Rotel Amp and Celestion bookshelf.(office system)). In my latest main set up with powerful MF amp and Wharfedale Evo 4.4 speakers (essentially smooth and detailed) I would say not. Even some known bright CDs sound very listenable using CXC as transport through the Oppo Dac. I'm sure cables will also be an issue (using NVA SSP). I would say unless your components err on the bright side the Sabre DAC should sound very good. |
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Post by dsjr on Dec 2, 2019 16:24:19 GMT
ESS dac chips have had a tendency to mid output level distortion rises according to many ASR tests which show it. This would appear to have been understood and 'sorted' now in new models using this company's chips. Whether this rise in distortion is audible though....... I don't think ANY of the Toppping dacs, even the beer budget USB D10, have any real audible 'sound' of their own. Those that claim they do seemed to refuse to do a proper level matched comparison and those that have, seem perfectly delighted with the sound coming out. When my ton-up almost knackered twin-supply Digit packs it on for good, the Toppings (a D30 probably as it's under a ton) were top of the list as I'd like three inputs. Exalted brand Hegel have just had a last generation $1400 dac reviewed. Performance was 'ok' but no better than a cheap model and build wasn't much cop either. www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/hegel-hd12-dsd-dac-and-headphone-amp-review.10179/ |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 17:18:46 GMT
I think the D50 is the sweet point for me. If only it had two coax inputs...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 17:26:37 GMT
ESS dac chips have had a tendency to mid output level distortion rises according to many ASR tests which show it. This would appear to have been understood and 'sorted' now in new models using this company's chips. Whether this rise in distortion is audible though....... I don't think ANY of the Toppping dacs, even the beer budget USB D10, have any real audible 'sound' of their own. Those that claim they do seemed to refuse to do a proper level matched comparison and those that have, seem perfectly delighted with the sound coming out. When my ton-up almost knackered twin-supply Digit packs it on for good, the Toppings (a D30 probably as it's under a ton) were top of the list as I'd like three inputs. Exalted brand Hegel have just had a last generation $1400 dac reviewed. Performance was 'ok' but no better than a cheap model and build wasn't much cop either. www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/hegel-hd12-dsd-dac-and-headphone-amp-review.10179/It's a 4 yr old model from a member. I know Hegel are pricey but does this reflect on their current DACs used in their upmarket amps? It looks like something that should be about £300. Dacs do appear to develop at a breakneck pace compared to other components. |
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Post by firebottle on Dec 2, 2019 17:31:14 GMT
I discovered an 'interesting' point on the D50 coax input. As built it is high impedance, in the region of 800 kohms. This doesn't provide a good match to the typical 75 ohm SPDIF impedance and I was experiencing occasions of signal unlock.
Since fitting a 75 load resistor to the input the problem has disappeared plus the signal looks a lot cleaner on the 'scope.
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Post by antonio on Dec 2, 2019 17:37:00 GMT
My Calyx 24/192 has ESS 9018 chip (just googled it) and there is certainly no glare.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2019 18:21:29 GMT
I discovered an 'interesting' point on the D50 coax input. As built it is high impedance, in the region of 800 kohms. This doesn't provide a good match to the typical 75 ohm SPDIF impedance and I was experiencing occasions of signal unlock. Since fitting a 75 load resistor to the input the problem has disappeared plus the signal looks a lot cleaner on the 'scope.  I get a new DAC and then have to go about attacking it with a soldering iron.... |
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Post by sq225917 on Dec 2, 2019 19:01:09 GMT
Doesnt everyone?
Cheaper implementations of ess dac have a very slight rising inter modulation distortion. It can be fixed by feeding the chips two rails for avcc right and left and implementing harmonic compensation in the dac registers.
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Post by macca on Dec 3, 2019 12:55:16 GMT
ESS dac chips have had a tendency to mid output level distortion rises according to many ASR tests which show it. This would appear to have been understood and 'sorted' now in new models using this company's chips. Whether this rise in distortion is audible though....... I don't think ANY of the Toppping dacs, even the beer budget USB D10, have any real audible 'sound' of their own. Those that claim they do seemed to refuse to do a proper level matched comparison and those that have, seem perfectly delighted with the sound coming out. When my ton-up almost knackered twin-supply Digit packs it on for good, the Toppings (a D30 probably as it's under a ton) were top of the list as I'd like three inputs. Exalted brand Hegel have just had a last generation $1400 dac reviewed. Performance was 'ok' but no better than a cheap model and build wasn't much cop either. www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/hegel-hd12-dsd-dac-and-headphone-amp-review.10179/It's a 4 yr old model from a member. I know Hegel are pricey but does this reflect on their current DACs used in their upmarket amps? It looks like something that should be about £300. Dacs do appear to develop at a breakneck pace compared to other components. The marketing of DACS has developed at a breakneck pace and has managed to convince a lot of people that the DACs themselves have developed at a breakneck pace when in reality nothing has changed in 30-odd years. Reminds me a bit of soap powders and their 'new improved formulas'.
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Post by dsjr on Dec 3, 2019 17:01:22 GMT
Audible or not, I don't know, but recent dac developments HAVE seen some changes I think. USB implementations have improved, low level linearity beyond red book 16 bit also seems to have got much better. Immunity from associated power supplies looks better than ever these days (even Stan B commented on this with his own dacs not so long ago, possibly on AOS). Not sure about ultrasonic output though.
I do agree that it's our playback systems themselves that may well have evolved a good bit over thirty years and as macca has also found, older basic players now sound 'better than ever' now most of our playback systems seem better behaved and 'cleaner?'
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Post by macca on Dec 3, 2019 18:02:06 GMT
Indeed, I am fully equipped to demonstrate that there was absolutely nothing wrong with early (1984) digital. No glare, no harshness, no graininess etc etc. I do think some of my later players are 'better' though. But the 1984 one is Marantz and I've never been keen on the Marantz cd house sound. So it could just be that. Or you could not believe me and drop a couple of grand on an idiotic isolation stand: theaudiophileman.com/professional-rack-blue-horizon-review/
'I began with a CD player, a device that is just as prone to vibration and noise as a seemingly more sensitive turntable. CD players suffer terribly from jitter and timing related problems which is partly due to noise and vibrations. The platform you place the player upon is critical in allowing your player to perform properly.'
Weird, then, how all of mine sound fine even just sat on the floor. |
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Post by sq225917 on Dec 3, 2019 18:29:22 GMT
I cant recall a single example of measurements ever showing jitter to change according to what a cd player/ transport was sighted on.
Jitter is an interface problem, not a disc read problem. It's down to poor circuit design and limited component choice. Not nearly immeasurable vibration.
Improved the quality of the clock, reduce noise in the circuit, use a better i2s spdif converter chip and 75 ohm termination and you get reduced jitter.
Dropped bits from a bad read ain't jitter.
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Post by macca on Dec 3, 2019 19:15:32 GMT
I cant recall a single example of measurements ever showing jitter to change according to what a cd player/ transport was sighted on. It would certainly be a turn up for the books. |
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Post by dsjr on Dec 3, 2019 20:03:17 GMT
That chap relies a lot on manufacturers sending him stuff to review and rave about. If he was totally honest with himself and 'us,' his income would cease I reckon as well as writing revenue.
Current issue is 'noise modulation' which is something Rob Watts claims to have put to bed.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 3, 2019 20:10:11 GMT
Seems the "audiophileman" is talking Utter bollocks.
What a surprise.
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Post by pauld on Dec 4, 2019 18:33:03 GMT
My NovaFidelity Streamer uses Sabre DACs and it’s certainly brighter than my previous SEG, but not unpleasantly so.
A friend uses the Topping DAC as an upgrade from a SEG and they’re very happy with it.
I think it all depends on the implementation.
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Post by sq225917 on Dec 5, 2019 8:38:44 GMT
Yup utter bollocks.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2019 9:16:19 GMT
My NovaFidelity Streamer uses Sabre DACs and it’s certainly brighter than my previous SEG, but not unpleasantly so. A friend uses the Topping DAC as an upgrade from a SEG and they’re very happy with it. I think it all depends on the implementation. Which Topping does he use? |
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Post by pauld on Dec 5, 2019 17:14:54 GMT
My NovaFidelity Streamer uses Sabre DACs and it’s certainly brighter than my previous SEG, but not unpleasantly so. A friend uses the Topping DAC as an upgrade from a SEG and they’re very happy with it. I think it all depends on the implementation. Which Topping does he use? The D50. |
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Post by pauld on Dec 6, 2019 17:52:54 GMT
Which Topping does he use? The D50. Sorry it’s a D70, not D50. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2019 18:04:49 GMT
Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2019 10:02:27 GMT
The D70 does not use a Sabre DAC chip. If only it had two coax inputs.....
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Post by pauld on Dec 7, 2019 12:07:32 GMT
The D70 does not use a Sabre DAC chip. If only it had two coax inputs..... Oh really, my bad. You could try the D50 and see how you get on. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2019 13:10:48 GMT
It is no problem, as the D70 looks rather good. Just limited in inputs, which is a shame.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2019 14:26:08 GMT
Any thoughts on the Topping D70 or Sabaj Dt5?
Are they built to a good standard, or am I likely to get issues a few years down the road?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 22, 2019 17:25:13 GMT
Any thoughts on the Topping D70 or Sabaj Dt5? Are they built to a good standard, or am I likely to get issues a few years down the road? I believe they are both thoroughly reviewed on ASR The Sabaj has a mid bump caused by a well known issue with the chip, IIRC. I'd suggest checking. The Topping has no nasties, again IIRC. Never heard of a build or reliability issue with the Topping stuff. |
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Post by dsjr on Dec 22, 2019 18:43:22 GMT
'A few years down the road...'
Apologies all, but how long do many of you keep gear? For me it's decades in many cases, but so many forum people move things around every couple of years or so, even if they're not serial box swappers. A pal has had baby Topping amps for some years now (I don't know the models, sorry) and they're used daily with no issues at all. I know of SMSL digital stuff failing annoyingly, but I think Topping may be safe enough, especially a dac...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2019 20:10:37 GMT
If it is good, it stays.
I still have my Kenwood KA-3020SE amp, Pioneer PD-S703 CD player and my KEF Coda 9 speakers that were my first real system.
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