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Post by macca on Dec 23, 2019 7:54:15 GMT
Any thoughts on the Topping D70 or Sabaj Dt5? Are they built to a good standard, or am I likely to get issues a few years down the road? I believe they are both thoroughly reviewed on ASR The Sabaj has a mid bump caused by a well known issue with the chip, IIRC. I'd suggest checking. The Topping has no nasties, again IIRC. Never heard of a build or reliability issue with the Topping stuff. Just to clarify, It's Frequency response was flat, it has a 'hump' in IMD distortion not FR - the general consensuses seemed to be that it was very unlikely to be audible |
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2019 8:14:38 GMT
I believe they are both thoroughly reviewed on ASR The Sabaj has a mid bump caused by a well known issue with the chip, IIRC. I'd suggest checking. The Topping has no nasties, again IIRC. Never heard of a build or reliability issue with the Topping stuff. Just to clarify, It's Frequency response was flat, it has a 'hump' in IMD distortion not FR - the general consensuses seemed to be that it was very unlikely to be audible Yes, that's correct. Thanks Macca. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2019 12:57:56 GMT
The choice boils down to 2 brands if I go Chi-Fi.
Topping D50s/D70 or the Sabaj D5.
All are supposed to be quite good, but will they be better than the SEG?
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Post by macca on Dec 23, 2019 13:30:56 GMT
Well they all convert digital to analogue without adding audible noise and distortion, not sure what anyone expects a DAC to do besides that.
If it were me - and it might be in the new year - I'd spend the extra and get the RME ADI2. That way, when 'new DAC euphoria' wears off after a couple of days you at least have some extra features to play with. And a little spectrum analyser screen to look at, which is quite funky if nothing else.
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2019 13:56:06 GMT
Well they all convert digital to analogue without adding audible noise and distortion, not sure what anyone expects a DAC to do besides that. If it were me - and it might be in the new year - I'd spend the extra and get the RME ADI2. That way, when 'new DAC euphoria' wears off after a couple of days you at least have some extra features to play with. And a little spectrum analyser screen to look at, which is quite funky if nothing else. I'd be inclined to agree but If I had to choose between the two, I'd go with the Topping. Ive never heard one I didn't like. |
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Post by dsjr on Dec 23, 2019 14:23:07 GMT
Back in the day (twenty odd years ago), I liked CD players which appeared to have a stronger, deeper bass and a more obvious 3-D effect (Copland 288, my Micro Seiki and especially the next one up - CD-M100 and Naim CD-S2/XPS?).
I'm now starting to think that these players were adding bass distortion to 'sex-em-up' a bit and now I have speakers with more than ample bass, i am beginning to notice this extra bass in the source as actually being a colouration, as initially 'leaner' digital sources actually change sonically from recording to recording, which is what it's supposed to do surely? A 'nice sounding' player or dac which sounds the same with every disc played isn't actually 'higher fidelity' at all.
I heard this quite vividly recently on vinyl with the Rega Planar 10/Apheta 3 into their ott phono stage, each record played sounding 'different' to the previous, where a similarly priced Linn Majik LP12/Adikt just sounds lovely *all* the time, but ultimately, not as vivid or clear. Perhaps this isn't at all what people want?
Wish I could afford an RME dac, or possibly a Benchmark or Chord. No need to worry at all about 'digital' ever again!
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Post by karma67 on Dec 23, 2019 14:49:22 GMT
dont you mean........  |
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Post by sq225917 on Dec 23, 2019 18:36:42 GMT
Which one?
The Crimean?
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Post by dsjr on Dec 24, 2019 20:04:43 GMT
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 24, 2019 20:25:49 GMT
I know it's Christmas Eve but I'm compelled to share an opinion for Kevin.
I popped into Alan's today to pick up my Bigbottle board after testing.
I recently suggested to Alan to get rid of his Allo Boss and get a Allo USBridge and use his Topping for the streaming and also his CDs via the Philips CDP he has.
I heard the CD the other day and it was very good indeed. Certainly good enough to recommend. However, today via the USBridge there was a definite depth and dimension to the sound that I didn't hear before in Alan's system.
The track we listened to was Peter Schneider - St James Infirmary, and whilst we only listened to that track, it was enough to hear how good Alan's digital now is. For dyed in the wool Vinylistas like us to be noticing the second class citizen our Vinyl has become, it must be a good thing on the digital front. I've found this Via the PecanPi and now the Topping has done that for Alan.
Personally, if I was only looking to spend a couple of hundred Euros on a standalone DAC, I'd look no further.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 13:52:31 GMT
The D50 is a bargain, and the D50s is supposed to be better.
Audio science review rates the Sabaj D5 very well. But people say the D70 is very good too. The D70 is being discontinued and being replaced by the D90.
Both the D70 and Sabah have internal linear power supplies, so negate the need for an upgrade.
I am tempted by the D50s, as I am not sure I need the headphone amplifier section of the Sabaj D5, although a balanced output could be fun, but is it necessary for headphone use?
I am still undecided if it will be better than what I have now, or just different.
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Post by sq225917 on Dec 27, 2019 17:41:11 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 18:04:04 GMT
I think that the D50s will be sufficient for my needs.
I don’t need balanced out, and it is almost as good as the D5, apparently.
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Post by dsjr on Dec 27, 2019 18:18:06 GMT
To kind-of answer Biggie's post above regarding vinyl becoming the poor relation once a decently set up digital-source system is heard. If you come full circle as macca and I suspect myself have done - all of a sudden, you hear a fair to middling mid 80's CD player and find that basically, they were ok all the time, if not quite as 'expansive sounding' as today. I was given a cheapo Philips player (CD 371?) which I 'sold' to Cash Converters for a tenner. Nobody wanted it (plastic thing) not even for the transport, and the only nod to audiophooldom was better quality audio output caps (Nichicon I think) which I believe were originals. Bloody thing sounded absolutely fine to me with no real nasties, or lack of bass with harshness, or grain to speak of! Like I said, maybe not as 'expansive,' but certainly very pleasant and utterly inoffensive today. As for vinyl, I no longer have thousands invested in a higher end player, so it's easier I feel, to make allowances. Had I the dosh, I know where I'd go for a turntable upgrade (and despite sounding better than ever in its raw trim, I don't think it'd include a Majik LP12) for a very few thousand quid and if the Decca was put back into a properly matching deck and arm and with a wide-open phono stage with some headroom, I'd not need to compare with 'digital' any more.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 18:45:26 GMT
If anyone’s vinyl is a poor relation to their digital, then their vinyl setup is a long way short of optimal. I can’t agree with cheap CD players or DAC being even tolerable I’m afraid. I think we may simply be looking for different things when it comes to music reproduction. That’s all I can think of as an explanation based on what I hear.
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Post by dsjr on Dec 27, 2019 19:09:43 GMT
I wish I could demonstrate to you what it is I type, but I can't so it's just an opinion presented that may well go against the grain. Nearest I can offer is the Rega Planar 10/Apheta 3, which seems to give you much of what was cut on the master acetate with minimum of alteration in the playback I think (it sounds very 'digital' but you may take that as a criticism which isn't my intention at all). I bet many vinylistas will absolutely hate it as it lacks 'romance,' or 'halo,' or that cozy-quality inherent in most popular vinyl playback sources.
Just my vibe here...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 19:13:27 GMT
I really am in two minds about this, as I have just fitted some Burr Brown OPA2228P op amps to my Essence STX II and it sounds great.
I think I need to get to a DAC bake off and see what is what before forking out any money.
Although the DACs measure well, soundstage is important, and this does not come across on a silly scope. You need a good old fashioned Mk1 ear for that.
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 27, 2019 19:30:47 GMT
If anyone’s vinyl is a poor relation to their digital, then their vinyl setup is a long way short of optimal. I can’t agree with cheap CD players or DAC being even tolerable I’m afraid. I think we may simply be looking for different things when it comes to music reproduction. That’s all I can think of as an explanation based on what I hear. Andrew, I understand where your comment is borne and also why 90% of our ilk would agree with that statement, but I doubt anyone would walk away from my vinyl replay feeling that it was lacking. Truth is, digital has the potential to be unbeatable, it's just finding the best way to hear it. I think I've pretty much nailed it but I am going to buy a Matrix DAC Sabre Pro at some point and IMO, this will be where I feel digital may be out of the reach of vinyl, but only time will tell. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 19:44:45 GMT
That is one expensive DAC.
Is there much benefit over something like the Sabaj D5, at about 1/3rd of the price?
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Post by dsjr on Dec 27, 2019 19:49:06 GMT
I really am in two minds about this, as I have just fitted some Burr Brown OPA2228P op amps to my Essence STX II and it sounds great. I think I need to get to a DAC bake off and see what is what before forking out any money. Oh Gawd... Op-amp rolling is another fraught with danger, as 'better' op-amps can ring/oscillate and do all manner of things worse than the often 'basic' originals which actually do the job just fine if optimised for the circuit they're used in. yet 'another' ASR thread on this -
Here's me suggesting the above and who was it who 'rolled' the op-amps in my Crown preamps? All for a few db less noise and distortion in a slightly more recent FET based op amp choice when I run the things hard anyway as the manufacturer suggested, reducing the gain on the power amps instead so the signal going down the interconnects is as high as possible - cough..... 
New dac which may be available to us for £200 or less and with very high performance and NO 'ESS HUMP' in distortion figures -
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Post by sq225917 on Dec 27, 2019 20:38:18 GMT
Loads of good digital out there, 2.5k really is the ceiling in terms of measured accuracy, anything more expensive these days tends to be house sound tailored or a swiss army knife feature filled box.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 20:39:12 GMT
At less than £10, it is not much of a gamble to be fair.
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 27, 2019 20:45:18 GMT
That is one expensive DAC. Is there much benefit over something like the Sabaj D5, at about 1/3rd of the price? The benefit is all around the IMD, SINAD, Distortion etc, which some folk don't place enough of an imporance on. The Matrix is the best DAC ever measured on Audio science review and personally, I'd rather save up and buy once, than be left wondering. If you read what Amir says, he alludes to the fact that the Sabre could have broken the mould, but hasn't quite hit that mark but yes, for the money, it's an incredibly good DAC. On spec anyway. My philosophy is that if I'm going to do it, I'd like to do it properly. Save your money K, and buy a Matrix. There won't be much to equal it on spec, and yes, it's expensive but we don't baulk at paying that for a turntable, cartridge etc. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 21:59:35 GMT
I would happily part with the cash if it proved to be much better than things like the Sabaj D5, which measures almost as well.
The problem with the measurements, is that they only tell half the story. I need depth and timbre to the soundstage.
I was quite tempted by the Arcam IRDAC on AoS, as it has all the inputs I am looking for, but I would like to hear one in my system first.
Have you tried Alan’s D50 in your system?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 22:20:59 GMT
I think measurements even telling half the story is optimistic. I wouldn’t spend a single penny or give a moments thought to buying on measured performance. I know it’s not a popular view here but I only buy on whether I like something,
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2019 22:35:05 GMT
I think measurements even telling half the story is optimistic. I wouldn’t spend a single penny or give a moments thought to buying on measured performance. I know it’s not a popular view here but I only buy on whether I like something, I agree. Stuff that measures well does not necessarily sound great. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 27, 2019 22:51:13 GMT
I would happily part with the cash if it proved to be much better than things like the Sabaj D5, which measures almost as well. The problem with the measurements, is that they only tell half the story. I need depth and timbre to the soundstage. I was quite tempted by the Arcam IRDAC on AoS, as it has all the inputs I am looking for, but I would like to hear one in my system first. Have you tried Alan’s D50 in your system? I haven't, but I am really familiar with his system and it isn't hard to hear the improvement it made over the Allo Boss. |
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Post by sq225917 on Dec 27, 2019 23:17:35 GMT
I never heard anything that measured flawlessly but sounded bad.
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 27, 2019 23:49:06 GMT
I never heard anything that measured flawlessly but sounded bad. Thing is, it is entirely possible that something measures flawlessly but isn't liked by an individual. Which is why we get this sort of, reluctance to rely on measurements as a barometer of sound. I get that the ultra linear sound may not suit some folk. The often described, but completely overlooked euphoric effect of "valves" in the system now make less sense to me now, than ever before. The only saving grace being the valve bit I have do not emphasize euphoria, that's why I love it. Things often levelled at DACs or Digital is that it becomes anti-musical or it's too clean or lean. True, it can sound sterile and uninvolved, I've experienced it, but when you get the right things together, it can also be every bit as full bodied and solid as the best R2R machines. All I know, is that the closest I've come to reproducing "Master Tape" quality sound (which I have sat in on whilst being recorded and mixed in a pro studio, multiple times) has been with Digital. I know what DSJR is getting at when he described a *drier* sound from those medias, and he is correct. There is nothing embellished, nothing emphasized or "haloed" It's bare. I got close with vinyl and I reckon a paradise or an Avalon may just get it "thereabouts" but the absolute reduction in distortion and IMD available with digital will get it closer still. There can be no argument about it. After all, that's the way it's all recorded now. |
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Post by antonio on Dec 28, 2019 6:12:42 GMT
Cagey, a couple of videos here which may interest you.
And one more featuring the Chord Mojo.
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