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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 8:59:34 GMT
Cool, thanks.
Will have a look now.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 9:59:23 GMT
What started me looking at DACs was the Audiolab M-DAC plus.
I think it looks like a good unit, but I don’t need the pre-amp section and headphone amp.
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Post by antonio on Dec 28, 2019 10:38:41 GMT
Just get the basic dac, why pay for more than you need. I think you've read the dac thread on HFS, and Fretless is now a big fan of the Teradak.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 11:07:45 GMT
Yes, I have. I am Caterham Kev over there.
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Post by macca on Dec 28, 2019 12:12:27 GMT
If anyone’s vinyl is a poor relation to their digital, then their vinyl setup is a long way short of optimal. I can’t agree with cheap CD players or DAC being even tolerable I’m afraid. I think we may simply be looking for different things when it comes to music reproduction. That’s all I can think of as an explanation based on what I hear. My £300 Sony from 2005 is good enough to let you hear all the details of the recording as though you were in the studio. What more can you want? What more is even possible? In that respect it is better than any turntable I've ever heard. Okay so granted that £300 in 2005 is £500 in today's money, and being the first 'affordable' SACD player it's likely that Sony priced it as a spoiler and lost money on them. Wouldn't be the first time they've done that. So it isn't a 'cheap' CD player. But a £5K player - or DAC - isn't bringing anything else to the party except unconscious bias from the price tag and the usual rave reviews. If you want to get into 'emotional communication' and all that jazz well that's a different matter and highly subjective. Just give me the recording reproduced as accurately as possible with nothing added or taken away and I'll colour the sound to my taste with my speaker selection - the only component where that is unavoidable. My brain is going to do the emotional connection bit - or not - and I've got no control over that. Sometimes it just isn't in the mood to provide it and sometimes it's in the mood to dollop it on in spades, doesn't matter whether I'm listening to a 50 grand high end system or the crappy DAB sourced stereo system in my friend's Toyota. In fact the Toyota system might deliver it more often, as having no expectations for the sound quality I can relax and actually listen to the music rather than the kit. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 28, 2019 12:24:49 GMT
Yes, I have. I am Caterham Kev over there. It is the D50s you are looking at and not the D50? Seems that the D50s had the IMD hump fixed and there is also a fix available for the Sabaj5 over on AsR however, it would require a wee bit of soldering etc. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 12:40:48 GMT
If anyone’s vinyl is a poor relation to their digital, then their vinyl setup is a long way short of optimal. I can’t agree with cheap CD players or DAC being even tolerable I’m afraid. I think we may simply be looking for different things when it comes to music reproduction. That’s all I can think of as an explanation based on what I hear. I totally agree, if your vinyl don't piss all over yer digital you've got a chink in the chain somewhere. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 12:51:00 GMT
Cheers Oli, you must have your Racism dial turned way to high.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 13:08:19 GMT
Digital is and always will be “margarine” to my ears. The cheapo jap players are cooking variety whilst the better ones are “I can’t believe it’s not butter”.......but they still don’t have the authenticity of the real thing. Yes it’s subjective but all I have to experience tne world are my senses. If they tell me something is artificial then as far as I’m concerned it is.
I don’t for one moment believe measurements capture the whole picture. Because my senses tell me otherwise.
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Post by dsjr on Dec 28, 2019 13:14:29 GMT
If anyone’s vinyl is a poor relation to their digital, then their vinyl setup is a long way short of optimal. I can’t agree with cheap CD players or DAC being even tolerable I’m afraid. I think we may simply be looking for different things when it comes to music reproduction. That’s all I can think of as an explanation based on what I hear. I totally agree, if your vinyl don't piss all over yer digital you've got a chink in the chain somewhere. Compare with the master recording as I've done many times in the past Jammy, and I'm afraid you'd be totally and utterly wrong in that statement (nowt to do with personal opinion, but easily heard if demonstrated). Sadly, I can't demonstrate this to you. The very best turntable systems come very close indeed if the record played has been well mastered and is clean, but all add distortion, band limiting especially at end of side and surface noise that can never be fully eliminated. You want more warmth from digital? Change your speakers... |
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Post by dsjr on Dec 28, 2019 13:19:20 GMT
Digital is and always will be “margarine” to my ears. The cheapo jap players are cooking variety whilst the better ones are “I can’t believe it’s not butter”.......but they still don’t have the authenticity of the real thing. Yes it’s subjective but all I have to experience tne world are my senses. If they tell me something is artificial then as far as I’m concerned it is. I don’t for one moment believe measurements capture the whole picture. Because my senses tell me otherwise. Ever made a CD-R rip of a vinyl record and tried to compare them?
In this instance, what's 'the real thing?' For me it's the master recording, analogue or digital and when that is the reference, it's a no brainer, for me at any rate. My mastering engineer pal 'educated me' to this particular reality many years back - and so did Linn of all people as I've mentioned a few times here and there. Sorry, but if 'digital' doesn't sound quite right, have a look at the amp for clipping behaviour and the speakers for tonal balance. Then go and hear some proper live unamplified music which'll put all this Sh#t into perspective...  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 28, 2019 13:22:09 GMT
Cheers Oli, you must have your Racism dial turned way to high. Haha, yes, I think we had a spate of unnecessary words from people who are no longer members and I went went a bit OTT lol. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 13:27:50 GMT
You can demonstrate till the cows come home Dave, but you won't convince me one little bit....no no no. I've had a wealth of digital players over the years and none come close to producing the sound quality of my vinyl players, regardless of speakers used.  via Imgflip Meme Generator |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 13:39:16 GMT
Ever made a CD-R rip of a vinyl record and tried to compare them?
In this instance, what's 'the real thing?' For me it's the master recording, analogue or digital and when that is the reference, it's a no brainer, for me at any rate. My mastering engineer pal 'educated me' to this particular reality many years back - and so did Linn of all people as I've mentioned a few times here and there. Sorry, but if 'digital' doesn't sound quite right, have a look at the amp for clipping behaviour and the speakers for tonal balance. Then go and hear some proper live unamplified music which'll put all this Sh#t into perspective... Yes I've made many cd rips off vinyl, and said CDs when played still can't hold a candle to my turntable (not even close) In the same way that my vinyl replay ain't even close to a live performance. |
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Post by dsjr on Dec 28, 2019 14:28:58 GMT
Level matched, others have said the CD rips are identical to the original which was my experience when I tried years back. Levels must be matched though.
Like I said, I can't demonstrate this for fun or seriousness as I once could and enjoyed doing, so I'm pissing in the wind on here to all intents and purposes. Sorry to have brought it up.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 15:21:56 GMT
Digital is and always will be “margarine” to my ears. The cheapo jap players are cooking variety whilst the better ones are “I can’t believe it’s not butter”.......but they still don’t have the authenticity of the real thing. Yes it’s subjective but all I have to experience tne world are my senses. If they tell me something is artificial then as far as I’m concerned it is. I don’t for one moment believe measurements capture the whole picture. Because my senses tell me otherwise. Ever made a CD-R rip of a vinyl record and tried to compare them?
In this instance, what's 'the real thing?' For me it's the master recording, analogue or digital and when that is the reference, it's a no brainer, for me at any rate. My mastering engineer pal 'educated me' to this particular reality many years back - and so did Linn of all people as I've mentioned a few times here and there. Sorry, but if 'digital' doesn't sound quite right, have a look at the amp for clipping behaviour and the speakers for tonal balance. Then go and hear some proper live unamplified music which'll put all this Sh#t into perspective... The thing is, I’ve done all of the things you suggest. CD rips of vinyl are still CDs in sound. I’ve had hundreds of amps and CD players so it’s unlikely to be my choice of either, Ive also had many dozens of turntables. CD is always margarine. Vinyl is always butter. If Cd doesn’t sound “quite right”, that’s because it isn’t. I’ve heard lots of unamplified music in my time and CD fails to capture the essence like vinyl does. The best CD comes close enough to enjoy but it still is missing something, I genuinely think we are perceiving differently because our brains work differently. I’m perhaps sensitive to some artifice that others aren’t. At least that’s what my senses tell me. |
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Post by sq225917 on Dec 28, 2019 15:29:51 GMT
I cant tell mine apart other than the odd vinyl noise
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2019 16:22:12 GMT
Yes, I have. I am Caterham Kev over there. It is the D50s you are looking at and not the D50? Seems that the D50s had the IMD hump fixed and there is also a fix available for the Sabaj5 over on AsR however, it would require a wee bit of soldering etc. Yep, The D50 seems to have been replaced. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 28, 2019 16:34:27 GMT
It is the D50s you are looking at and not the D50? Seems that the D50s had the IMD hump fixed and there is also a fix available for the Sabaj5 over on AsR however, it would require a wee bit of soldering etc. Yep, The D50 seems to have been replaced. Cool. Just checking |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2019 8:39:18 GMT
The Pro-Ject DAC Box S2 Plus looks interesting.
It is the same price as the Topping D50s, and is a John Westlake design.
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Post by macca on Dec 31, 2019 8:52:17 GMT
The D50S measures better though.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2019 8:52:29 GMT
Actually, I think the Pre Box S2 Digital May be the one to go for, as it is dual mono.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2019 8:53:08 GMT
The D50S measures better though. Measurements don’t give you the whole story, as you well know. |
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Post by macca on Dec 31, 2019 9:00:26 GMT
Even with something as straightforward as a DAC?
No you're right, guru designer involved so it must have some magical sound quality attributes that cannot be detected. If you're quick you might still be able to contribute to his crowd funding thing on PFM and receive his latest 'wonder DAC'.
Or you might get nothing, depends on how busy he is.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2019 9:11:55 GMT
If it measures well, it could be cold and analytical. I have read a few reviews on the D50s which suggest that all is not as it should be.
I don’t want a cold/analytical DAC.
The stereophile article is interesting, but my ears will be the final deciding factor.
I don’t do crowd funding, as there is a risk that the product will never be delivered.
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Post by macca on Dec 31, 2019 9:47:02 GMT
I'm not convinced that it is possible for a DAC to have properties like 'cold and analytical.' Or 'warm and fuzzy' for that matter. I suppose if you put enough transformers or tubes or whatever in the signal path you can get any sort of result. But I'd expect the Topping and the Project to sound identical. I'd be amazed if they didn't.
Edit - seems like you can 'like' your own posts, bit weird. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2019 10:20:12 GMT
I'm not convinced that it is possible for a DAC to have properties like 'cold and analytical.' Or 'warm and fuzzy' for that matter. I suppose if you put enough transformers or tubes or whatever in the signal path you can get any sort of result. But I'd expect the Topping and the Project to sound identical. I'd be amazed if they didn't.
Edit - seems like you can 'like' your own posts, bit weird. Well "cold and analytical" would be how I'd describe the Beresford DAC (TC-7510 was it?) I had years ago and "warm and fuzzy" is how I'd describe the ancient Mission DAC 5. But then, I only use a DAC for CD replay, maybe modern DACs employed for streaming are 'different' and indistinguishable? |
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Post by dsjr on Dec 31, 2019 10:28:53 GMT
Cold and analytical may well be crossover issues in the speakers which are hidden by 'domestic' analogue sources. Speakers are the pits still, by and large and along with the room they're in, by far the most likely to feck up a clean source in my experience. You want proof of a high end (ish) speaker that does this, try a higher end Dynaudio multi-driver model. Clean, cold and 'analytical' to a fault and being passive, not quite as tactile as a good active design can be (loads of bull talked about active crossovers being no good - total nonsense when done by someone who knows electronics properly ime).
As regards the 7510, it was of its time when power supply immunity wasn't as well considered or possible at low prices and maybe the analogue output wasn't as thoroughly considered as these things are today. The infamous 'dac for a fiver' shows what the raw truth is once properly supplied and although the ultimate performance of these isn't so hot (about the same as a reasonable AB amplifier by all accounts) and lacking extra output buffers the output is often low, they're really not bad at all - and being so cheap there's no doctoring of the performance they offer. I believe later Beresford dacs have taken much current thinking on board and Stan made a good few posts on AOS I recall about some of the developments in his latest offerings (I'm out of touch there now).
Let's face it, if a computer with USB output is a source, then a Topping D10 is cheap enough to experiment with and it has an SPDIF output as well I gather so can act as a digitally transparent USB to SPDIF converter. The Chromecast Audio if still available around and about, makes for a fine CHEAP wireless 'receiver' and it's digital output is beyond real criticism. The higher distortion analogue output is also perfectly serviceable too when I use my sample (there's proper measurements on at least two sites to confirm the baseline performance).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2019 11:23:11 GMT
Interestingly, the Pre DAC S2 has won several awards, probably due to the price point/functionality.
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Post by sq225917 on Dec 31, 2019 16:02:35 GMT
John's designs always mop up EISA awards, I think it's the price, sound, features mix that does it.
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