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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2020 18:45:05 GMT
Well, a new DAC may not be required.
Just got home from travelling about for Chrimbo and the new year etc. and decided to play around with the various cables, starting with optical. It seems that one of my cables that people are fond of on AoS (Fisual Hollywood) is faulty, or just very poor. I get a lot of noise with this cable. I swapped it out for the XO white cable that Jerry favours, and it sounds so much better through this cable.
Now I am thinking a better cable with decent lenses etc. May be in order.
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Post by sq225917 on Jan 2, 2020 18:49:40 GMT
Cheap glass fibre is as good as it gets for optical on such short distances.
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Post by pauld on Jan 2, 2020 18:59:22 GMT
Well, a new DAC may not be required. Just got home from travelling about for Chrimbo and the new year etc. and decided to play around with the various cables, starting with optical. It seems that one of my cables that people are fond of on AoS (Fisual Hollywood) is faulty, or just very poor. I get a lot of noise with this cable. I swapped it out for the XO white cable that Jerry favours, and it sounds so much better through this cable. Now I am thinking a better cable with decent lenses etc. May be in order. Try the Beresford optical cable, it is very good for not a lot of money. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 8:31:17 GMT
I have decided to send my SEG back to Mr Beresford to get the following done:
Main system CMOS clock upgrade
USB CMOS clock upgrade for lower USB jitter
RCA/PHONO sockets upgrade
Latest firmware (SEG 42)
Pre-amp/headphone output upgrade
That should make a nice difference, and cost less than changing for a DAC with less inputs.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 3, 2020 9:59:33 GMT
I have decided to send my SEG back to Mr Beresford to get the following done: Main system CMOS clock upgrade USB CMOS clock upgrade for lower USB jitter RCA/PHONO sockets upgrade Latest firmware (SEG 42) Pre-amp/headphone output upgrade That should make a nice difference, and cost less than changing for a DAC with less inputs. Fingers crossed for you |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 9:11:13 GMT
I hope it works out, otherwise I will lose a chunk of cash if I have to sell it.
No turning back now though, as it is in the post.
I am looking forward to the return of the Super SEG. Apart from new firmware, there will be nothing left to do as far as upgrades go, for now.
I read on another forum that you could have Coherent upgrades that total about £900. That seems like crazy money for a £200 DAC, but I think that includes a rather expensive power supply.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 6, 2020 10:00:13 GMT
I hope it works out, otherwise I will lose a chunk of cash if I have to sell it. No turning back now though, as it is in the post. I am looking forward to the return of the Super SEG. Apart from new firmware, there will be nothing left to do as far as upgrades go, for now. I read on another forum that you could have Coherent upgrades that total about £900. That seems like crazy money for a £200 DAC, but I think that includes a rather expensive power supply. There is usually a decent amount of return on investing in good PSU's, but even £900 seems a bit excessive nut knowing Tony, I suspect it would be very much state of the art stuff. |
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Post by dsjr on Jan 6, 2020 11:15:39 GMT
Current dacs are more supply-immune than ever - just read the evidence which is measurable *and repeatable* unlike most subjective impressions.. The dac-for-a-fiver, which has gone through quite a few changes since I bought mine eight years ago now (2012 - eek!), lacked supply isolation and a output buffer, so a 'better' linear supply did seem to make for a very small improvement and the lower output meant it would fail in a casual non-level-matched comparison. An SBooster inline filter for twenty five quid is probably all an SMPS supply needs - it works with my Caiman mk1 supply.
See, £900 upgrades on a £200 item that probably doesn't need them makes the likes of me rather cross to be honest... Electronic parts and simple enough cases are NOT expensive unless they're of the 'boutique' variety and the current drain on a dac is so low, you wouldn't need a huge transformer if the supply is properly designed, regulated and filtered - I believe the current Beresford dacs have extra regulation in them internally anyway, as Stan made a thing about it a few years back!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 6, 2020 12:56:07 GMT
Current dacs are more supply-immune than ever - just read the evidence which is measurable *and repeatable* unlike most subjective impressions.. The dac-for-a-fiver, which has gone through quite a few changes since I bought mine eight years ago now (2012 - eek!), lacked supply isolation and a output buffer, so a 'better' linear supply did seem to make for a very small improvement and the lower output meant it would fail in a casual non-level-matched comparison. An SBooster inline filter for twenty five quid is probably all an SMPS supply needs - it works with my Caiman mk1 supply. See, £900 upgrades on a £200 item that probably doesn't need them makes the likes of me rather cross to be honest... Electronic parts and simple enough cases are NOT expensive unless they're of the 'boutique' variety and the current drain on a dac is so low, you wouldn't need a huge transformer if the supply is properly designed, regulated and filtered - I believe the current Beresford dacs have extra regulation in them internally anyway, as Stan made a thing about it a few years back! Yes, there does appear to have been a particular shift in paying attention to PSU's from the manufacturers themselves. I have found value, especially with the Pi in giving it a really clean supply when I had the Allo gear. However, the Orchard Audio PecanPi doesn't appear to be affected in the slighted when used with a cheap wall-wart or LPSU. As always, "one size" does not fit all. |
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Post by pauld on Jan 6, 2020 16:47:31 GMT
See, £900 upgrades on a £200 item that probably doesn't need them makes the likes of me rather cross to be honest... Electronic parts and simple enough cases are NOT expensive unless they're of the 'boutique' variety and the current drain on a dac is so low, you wouldn't need a huge transformer if the supply is properly designed, regulated and filtered - I believe the current Beresford dacs have extra regulation in them internally anyway, as Stan made a thing about it a few years back! Why are you cross about something you haven't heard? The Beresford SEG with upgraded caps and and a Coherent Systems supercar power supply for around £1,500 total walks all over the Naim N-DAC which is around £2,749, I know which of the two I would buy. I find it funny that people are so emotive about upgrading components with anything that costs more than £50 but you can find real bargains going down this avenue. |
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Post by dsjr on Jan 6, 2020 23:10:16 GMT
You really would give someone £1300 to change a few caps and provide an external supply to a £200 model? Sh#t, I'm a cheapskate!
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Post by pauld on Jan 7, 2020 0:07:22 GMT
You really would give someone £1300 to change a few caps and provide an external supply to a £200 model? Sh#t, I'm a cheapskate! Yes, why not? did you see my point? If you pay some £1250 to upgrade something that sounds a lot better than something that sells for £2,749 how is that a bad thing? Or are you just saying that because it has a certain brand naim that the £2,749 piece of kit must sound better? |
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Post by pauld on Jan 7, 2020 0:10:20 GMT
You really would give someone £1300 to change a few caps and provide an external supply to a £200 model? Sh#t, I'm a cheapskate! Yes, why not? did you see my point? If you pay some £1500 to upgrade something that sounds a lot better than something that sells for £2,749 how is that a bad thing? Or are you just saying that because it has a certain brand naim that the £2,749 piece of kit must sound better? Oh and for the price of £1250, they would fit a new clock as well as new sockets, wiring, all the caps replaced, resistors etc. |
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Post by antonio on Jan 7, 2020 5:32:32 GMT
Hoping it works out for you Cagey
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Post by macca on Jan 7, 2020 7:42:30 GMT
You really would give someone £1300 to change a few caps and provide an external supply to a £200 model? Sh#t, I'm a cheapskate! Yes, why not? did you see my point? If you pay some £1250 to upgrade something that sounds a lot better than something that sells for £2,749 how is that a bad thing? Or are you just saying that because it has a certain brand naim that the £2,749 piece of kit must sound better? Confusing price with performance. The silly price DACS tend to measure terribly, look at that thing from PS Audio with so much noise and distortion it only manages 13 bits. And it costs 5 grand. Or the TotalDAC which is 14K Why would a DAC need a new clock, caps and resistors? What's wrong with the ones it came with? And if there is something wrong with them why buy it to begin with? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2020 9:06:39 GMT
Yes, why not? did you see my point? If you pay some £1250 to upgrade something that sounds a lot better than something that sells for £2,749 how is that a bad thing? Or are you just saying that because it has a certain brand naim that the £2,749 piece of kit must sound better? Confusing price with performance. The silly price DACS tend to measure terribly, look at that thing from PS Audio with so much noise and distortion it only manages 13 bits. And it costs 5 grand. Or the TotalDAC which is 14K Why would a DAC need a new clock, caps and resistors? What's wrong with the ones it came with? And if there is something wrong with them why buy it to begin with?Exactly. Why is there this trait of buying something, then spending many times its cost to 'upgrade' it? Surely it makes more sense to get items that meet requirements in the first place. You see the same thing with cars. Like the bloke who spends three grand on an older Golf and ten grand modifying it, when he could have bought a decent motor in the first place. |
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Post by dsjr on Jan 7, 2020 9:51:24 GMT
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Post by pauld on Jan 7, 2020 10:56:48 GMT
Yes, why not? did you see my point? If you pay some £1250 to upgrade something that sounds a lot better than something that sells for £2,749 how is that a bad thing? Or are you just saying that because it has a certain brand naim that the £2,749 piece of kit must sound better? Confusing price with performance. The silly price DACS tend to measure terribly, look at that thing from PS Audio with so much noise and distortion it only manages 13 bits. And it costs 5 grand. Or the TotalDAC which is 14K Why would a DAC need a new clock, caps and resistors? What's wrong with the ones it came with? And if there is something wrong with them why buy it to begin with? I am not sure I get your point, Martin. Everything is made to a price and then sold to the public for a price that the company thinks they can get away with selling it. In the example of the Beresford DAC, it is very good value, but if Stan were to put all of the upgraded components into it the value would go up and as his market share is quite low he would struggle to sell say a £1500 DAC. It doesn't mean the original DAC was bad, it just means it was made to a budget and can be improved. |
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Post by pauld on Jan 7, 2020 10:58:13 GMT
Confusing price with performance. The silly price DACS tend to measure terribly, look at that thing from PS Audio with so much noise and distortion it only manages 13 bits. And it costs 5 grand. Or the TotalDAC which is 14K Why would a DAC need a new clock, caps and resistors? What's wrong with the ones it came with? And if there is something wrong with them why buy it to begin with?Exactly. Why is there this trait of buying something, then spending many times its cost to 'upgrade' it? Surely it makes more sense to get items that meet requirements in the first place. You see the same thing with cars. Like the bloke who spends three grand on an older Golf and ten grand modifying it, when he could have bought a decent motor in the first place. I don't get this point either, Geoff. If you can upgrade something for less money than you can buy the equivalent kit outright for, why wouldn't you do that? |
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Post by macca on Jan 7, 2020 14:22:29 GMT
It isn't necessarily the equivalent though - The DAC in an LG smartphone is better than the PSD Audio or the Totaldac - from a technical point of view. And it isn't a small difference.
I suspect the clock, caps etc in the Beresford DAC are more than adequate to perform the required task with minimal noise and distortion so what is there to be improved by spending the extra £1200 quid?
people send off their DACs and CD players for these supposed upgrades, weeks later they get them back and it's always night and day but the reality is that there is no way they can recall what it sounded like previously - but they've spent the money and they've read that it's a big improvement so guess what?
If I offered a £1200 upgrade to the wing mirror on your car you would rightly ask me what the upgraded wing mirror does that the existing one does not do. And the answer would be jack Sh#t. But people understand how a wing mirror works so they ask the question.
Most people don't even have a basic understanding of how a DAC works, or indeed how digital audio in general works, so they just accept it when told that it is going to be money well spent.
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Post by pauld on Jan 7, 2020 15:10:28 GMT
It isn't necessarily the equivalent though - The DAC in an LG smartphone is better than the PSD Audio or the Totaldac - from a technical point of view. And it isn't a small difference. I suspect the clock, caps etc in the Beresford DAC are more than adequate to perform the required task with minimal noise and distortion so what is there to be improved by spending the extra £1200 quid? people send off their DACs and CD players for these supposed upgrades, weeks later they get them back and it's always night and day but the reality is that there is no way they can recall what it sounded like previously - but they've spent the money and they've read that it's a big improvement so guess what? If I offered a £1200 upgrade to the wing mirror on your car you would rightly ask me what the upgraded wing mirror does that the existing one does not do. And the answer would be jack Sh#t. But people understand how a wing mirror works so they ask the question. Most people don't even have a basic understanding of how a DAC works, or indeed how digital audio in general works, so they just accept it when told that it is going to be money well spent. I get your point, but I don't agree and don't really think the wing mirror analogy really applies. It is quite easy to understand whether there is a difference or not, it is rather like changing speakers to a new model or an amplifier to a different make when it has been done right. Don't get me wrong, I know from experience in my younger years when I had something upgraded that they don't always bring benefits, and on occasions they can bring negative changes, but the upgrades that Coherent performed on the Beresford DAC were significant. Measurements wise, I honestly couldn't care less. As long as it sounds good to me then that is all I care about. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2020 17:00:13 GMT
Theres an aspect of liking what you have and rather than bining it off in favour of spending on an unheard item, people will spend to upgrade their current gear
The thing is, the beresford may improve with a new or better PSU, but when you get to £1500 total spend, say £1300 for the mods and £200 for the DAC, There is no question in my mind that you could smash that DAC with a Matrix Sabre Pro
With that, you get the very best measuring DAC ever tested at ASR
I know where my £1500 would go. I've heard a Caimen SEG and it hurt
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Post by macca on Jan 7, 2020 18:24:28 GMT
It isn't necessarily the equivalent though - The DAC in an LG smartphone is better than the PSD Audio or the Totaldac - from a technical point of view. And it isn't a small difference. I suspect the clock, caps etc in the Beresford DAC are more than adequate to perform the required task with minimal noise and distortion so what is there to be improved by spending the extra £1200 quid? people send off their DACs and CD players for these supposed upgrades, weeks later they get them back and it's always night and day but the reality is that there is no way they can recall what it sounded like previously - but they've spent the money and they've read that it's a big improvement so guess what? If I offered a £1200 upgrade to the wing mirror on your car you would rightly ask me what the upgraded wing mirror does that the existing one does not do. And the answer would be jack Sh#t. But people understand how a wing mirror works so they ask the question. Most people don't even have a basic understanding of how a DAC works, or indeed how digital audio in general works, so they just accept it when told that it is going to be money well spent. Measurements wise, I honestly couldn't care less. As long as it sounds good to me then that is all I care about. Yep I understand that and I'm the same, I think everyone is. But there is a strong correlation between equipment that measures well and the equipment people prefer, this has been demonstrated in extensive testing. And the testing is blind so no-one knows if they are listening to a cheap or an expensive item, or what brand name it has on it. Poor measuring stuff may put some added enhancement onto some types of music but generally it will make most material sound worse. This is why people with 'left-field' equipment choices are always complaining about recording quality. You get the special sauce poured over everything regardless of whether it is better for it or not or whether you want it or not. And you'll usually pay a premium for it. Crazy. If you take the example of the clock upgrade, this is going to effect the amount of jitter. Even the worst DACs ASR have tested did not have audible levels of jitter so how bad was the original DAC that a clock upgrade would benefit it? The reality is the clock upgrade does nothing to the jitter levels, total waste of money. Maybe the DAC sounds different post upgrade but that won't be anything to do with jitter, and unless you've compared the upgraded DAC to an original one back to back and blind then there's no way to be sure that it sounds different, let alone better. I bet there's no before or after measurements available to show that the improvement at least exists on paper either. Perfect measuring DACs are not expensive, I'd advise anyone to just get one of those, fit it and forget it. It's doing exactly the job it is supposed to, nothing more to worry about. Tailor your digital sound quality to taste in more tangible and flexible ways - speakers, EQ and room treatment. |
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Post by sq225917 on Jan 7, 2020 18:26:43 GMT
I see the sense in Spending modest amounts upgrading well designed kit that has easily fixed shortcomings. You could have a dac with killer electronics but a most psu. If the upgrade brings vfm then it makes sense.
I have an entirely diy dac based on a rpi and a dual ess chip dac board. Cost of those bits, £220. I then spent money on an additional fifo board, better clocks, a battery based mulitrail psu, various extra psu regs and supercapsvthen topped it all off with a transformer output stage. Total cost about 1100, does it sound better than my Brooklyn dac, yup, loads. Was it less expensive, yup.
Everything is made to a price point, nearly all modestly priced kit can be measurable improved with upgrades.
Cost is no arbiter of audio fidelity.
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Post by pauld on Jan 7, 2020 18:27:23 GMT
Theres an aspect of liking what you have and rather than bining it off in favour of spending on an unheard item, people will spend to upgrade their current gear The thing is, the beresford may improve with a new or better PSU, but when you get to £1500 total spend, say £1300 for the mods and £200 for the DAC, There is no question in my mind that you could smash that DAC with a Matrix Sabre Pro With that, you get the very best measuring DAC ever tested at ASR I know where my £1500 would go. I've heard a Caimen SEG and it hurt It hurt to hear a Caiman SEG sounds a bit of an exaggeration, but if that’s your opinion that’s also surprised. If you had it in mode 3 it is a pretty easy listen in my experience. Some if it comes down to personal preference though, doesn’t it. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2020 18:31:19 GMT
The questioned posed is an age old one, spend money improving one item or moving up the food chain, the answer is for the individual to decide, what you or I may do is a personal choice, for others it is the same destination save for other reasons.
The point is other persons choice is just that, free country and all. Though I would agree myself I would have chosen a different route.
Not sure your wing mirror analogy works for me Macca sorry.
Back to the Sabre dac's they measure respectably well, but the resulting sound will not appeal to everyone I believe.
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Post by pauld on Jan 7, 2020 18:31:24 GMT
Cost is no arbiter of audio fidelity. Wow, I think this is the first time I have completely agreed with one of your posts. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2020 18:31:55 GMT
Theres an aspect of liking what you have and rather than bining it off in favour of spending on an unheard item, people will spend to upgrade their current gear The thing is, the beresford may improve with a new or better PSU, but when you get to £1500 total spend, say £1300 for the mods and £200 for the DAC, There is no question in my mind that you could smash that DAC with a Matrix Sabre Pro With that, you get the very best measuring DAC ever tested at ASR I know where my £1500 would go. I've heard a Caimen SEG and it hurt It hurt to hear a Caiman SEG sounds a bit of an exaggeration, but if that’s your opinion that’s also surprised. If you had it in mode 3 it is a pretty easy listen in my experience. Some if it comes down to personal preference though, doesn’t it. IT just glared over the HF's to the point it was uncomfortable, Paul. It did hurt my sensibilities. I was actually really gutted as i thought it may be the budget answer i was looking for. I have no idea what mode it was in as it wasn't mine but i think it was "fast roll off" or something to that effect? Thing is, i have said this before and yes, i understand there are a lot of Caimen users out there, but theres also a lot o Heroin users too. It just aint for me. I respect Stan and the work he does. I like that he is independant and when i spoke to him, he was a top banana. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2020 18:34:10 GMT
The questioned posed is an age old one, spend money improving one item or moving up the food chain, the answer is for the individual to decide, what you or I may do is a personal choice, for others it is the same destination save for other reasons. The point is other persons choice is just that, free country and all. Though I would agree myself I would have chosen a different route. Not sure your wing mirror analogy works for me Macca sorry. Back to the Sabre dac's they measure respectably well, but the resulting sound will not appeal to everyone I believe. I accept that and it's a point well made. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2020 18:34:54 GMT
I see the sense in Spending modest amounts upgrading well designed kit that has easily fixed shortcomings. You could have a dac with killer electronics but a most psu. If the upgrade brings vfm then it makes sense. I have an entirely diy dac based on a rpi and a dual ess chip dac board. Cost of those bits, £220. I then spent money on an additional fifo board, better clocks, a battery based mulitrail psu, various extra psu regs and supercapsvthen topped it all off with a transformer output stage. Total cost about 1100, does it sound better than my Brooklyn dac, yup, loads. Was it less expensive, yup.Everything is made to a price point, nearly all modestly priced kit can be measurable improved with upgrades. Cost is no arbiter of audio fidelity. I still think this is the way i will go when the upgrade urge gets too strong |
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