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Post by macca on Aug 16, 2019 19:27:35 GMT
From a technical point of view they are. Whether that is audible, or is even a good thing, are different questions  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 19:54:07 GMT
They don't thicken the tones like the old Krell did?
Without having heard them, I could say 'Welcome to the world of professional amplification!'
That'd be the old Krell I'm listening to now? Nah it doesn't thicken tones. I'd not be listening to it if it did that! But it does have some character to it. More than I'd expect these Orchard amps to have anyway. I think you might be right in that the amps are exposing the speaker's lack of deeper bass that the Krell in some way compensated for. Will be interested to see if the short speaker cables change it all. In theory it shouldn't make a blind bit of difference. The Krell does have a meatier sound, no doubt in my mind about that. What I don't understand is, if the speakers don't have deeper bass, how did they have it with the Krell? They can't do something that they Can't physically do. |
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Post by dsjr on Aug 16, 2019 19:55:54 GMT
My take on these first generation krells was that they could sound slightly 'cloudy.' Probably disrespectful and obviously limited by the preamps of the day, bu tit's a long time since I heard an original Krell. The krell 50S isn't like that at all and possibly slightly 'literal' in presentation, as my geriatric D-150 is.
Please remember that high damping factor (low output impedance) can have the effect of totally changing the bass quality as well as flattening the frequency response of a speaker otherwise altered by a higher output impedance (best shown in numerous Stereophile valve/tube amp reviews - look for the Prima Luna measurements for a bit of a technical horror story which owners absolutely swear by).
Peter Walker's amps were anything but a pure straight wire with gain, Quad only suggested that an 'ideal' amp should be so in their view. Peter and his team DID 'listen' to their amps, but not to music when they were testing. Moreover, they claimed that they listened for distortions and other nasties, so in the final design stage, they could tune the designs to get distortions as far out of the audible way as possible. Only then would they pass the designs for production I gather.
I rather think we've gone beyond that stage now, but there are definitely some popular amp makes that have added character that owners find difficult to live without. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 19:55:57 GMT
The idea behind these Amps is to be as close as possible to the ideal flat wire with gain... And based on your findings this seems to be the case... Things will get interesting when the Neurochrome turns up. My moneys on it being closer to the Orchard Audi’s, but with a bit more bottom end. Just have to wait and see. I think they will sound more similar than dissimilar, like you say. That will be an enjoyable comparison |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 19:58:21 GMT
peter walkers amps were anything but a pure straight wire with gain, Quad only suggested that an 'ideal' amp should be so in their view. Peter and his team DID 'listen' to their amps, but not to music when they were testing. Moreover, they claimed that they listened for distortions and other nasties, so in the final design stage, they could tune the designs to get distortions as far out of the audible way as possible. I rather think we've gone beyond that stage now, but there are definitely some popular amp makes that have added character that owners find difficult to live without. It's only taken a few years but you and I are agreeing Dave lol Definitely feeling like Krell, Mcintosh and the like managed to do this. Bruno Putzeys suggested he could make his amps sound like any other brand, but he didn't want that. He wanted the straight wire with gain that I have here with Leo's stuff. |
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Post by dsjr on Aug 16, 2019 20:07:12 GMT
You've caught up you mean?  Don't worry, the more I think I know, the more I realise I don't  Fun learning though... |
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orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Aug 16, 2019 20:15:14 GMT
This is most likely what Oli is describing as the damping factor of this amp is very high > 600.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 20:27:40 GMT
You've caught up you mean? Don't worry, the more I think I know, the more I realise I don't Fun learning though... Hahaha, cheeky! Lol |
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orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Aug 16, 2019 20:41:00 GMT
This is most likely what Oli is describing as the damping factor of this amp is very high > 600. If this is the case putting the amp on even shorter wires would only make this effect more apparent. |
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Post by macca on Aug 16, 2019 21:06:21 GMT
That'd be the old Krell I'm listening to now? Nah it doesn't thicken tones. I'd not be listening to it if it did that! But it does have some character to it. More than I'd expect these Orchard amps to have anyway. I think you might be right in that the amps are exposing the speaker's lack of deeper bass that the Krell in some way compensated for. Will be interested to see if the short speaker cables change it all. In theory it shouldn't make a blind bit of difference. The Krell does have a meatier sound, no doubt in my mind about that. What I don't understand is, if the speakers don't have deeper bass, how did they have it with the Krell? They can't do something that they Can't physically do. Could be other possibilities. impedance matching between the pre and power for example. Probably the most obvious reason is being overlooked - the Krell is just better in the bass. I mean class D amps have been around longer than Krell has existed as a company, there's always a trade off with any topology - and so forth. The Krell is a massive leccy guzzling fan heater for a reason. Don't suppose there is any chance of you bringing them up the motorway and we can have a listen here? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 21:09:01 GMT
The Krell does have a meatier sound, no doubt in my mind about that. What I don't understand is, if the speakers don't have deeper bass, how did they have it with the Krell? They can't do something that they Can't physically do. Could be other possibilities. impedance matching between the pre and power for example. Probably the most obvious reason is being overlooked - the Krell is just better in the bass. I mean class D amps have been around longer than Krell has existed as a company, there's always a trade off with any topology - and so forth. The Krell is a massive leccy guzzling fan heater for a reason. Don't suppose there is any chance of you bringing them up the motorway and we can have a listen here? Impedance matching is something I have thought about. I will try and get up to yours for a couple of hours. I'll PM you when I've had a chat with the gaffer about plans. |
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Post by scotty38 on Aug 17, 2019 8:10:05 GMT
This is most likely what Oli is describing as the damping factor of this amp is very high > 600.
Genuine question... Jez Arkless is adamant that a damping factor over say 20 has negligible effect and one of say 500 is maybe only 1% greater than 20 in damping terms. Don't quote me on the exact figures but you get the gist, any thoughts on this one?
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Post by sq225917 on Aug 17, 2019 8:22:52 GMT
Hes right, beyond a certain ratio all the damping factor in the world doesnt add anything more. Same with headphone amps and output impedance related frequency shifts, once youre under half an ohm it makes no difference if its 0.1 ohm or 0.0001
If the damping factor is 600 changing the length of the cables to the speakers shouldn't make any difference, at least not if they're unconditionally stable...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2019 8:26:58 GMT
Hes right, beyond a certain ratio all the damping factor in the world doesnt add anything more. Same with headphone amps and output impedance related frequency shifts, once youre under half an ohm it makes no difference if its 0.1 ohm or 0.0001 So we can rule out damping factor then lol |
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orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Aug 17, 2019 17:01:16 GMT
Hes right, beyond a certain ratio all the damping factor in the world doesnt add anything more. Same with headphone amps and output impedance related frequency shifts, once youre under half an ohm it makes no difference if its 0.1 ohm or 0.0001 So we can rule out damping factor then lol Have you tried with the PecanPi yet? If you get the same result with the PecanPi then it's probably damping factor as there will not be an impedance mismatch between PecanPi and BOSC. BOSC is DC coupled so bass delivery should be very good. |
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Don't worry, the more I think I know, the more I realise I don't 
Fun learning though...
