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Post by macca on Aug 16, 2019 12:42:56 GMT
My point was that vinyl and cassette can sound excellent despite the fact that the measurements are terrible compared to even the cheapest, oldest digital playback system. So the ASR measurements are nothing to worry about, even for the Totaldac.
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Post by dsjr on Aug 16, 2019 12:57:27 GMT
Cassettes excellent? Dolby-less hiss was terribly intrusive although bearable with properly calibrated Dolby B. I admit the hf response limitations weren't an issue, but there was always a loss when recording CD's for the car back before cheaper in-car CD players came along. Metal tape took more energy to get the signal on the tape and a lot more playings to remove it but ferric tape was awful after just a few playings. I could never go back to that medium now. As for vinyl, I have a lot of LP's and 12" singles I'd like to play again regularly one day.
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Post by macca on Aug 16, 2019 13:52:23 GMT
I'd never go back to cassette and I gave away my deck and all my tapes years ago and replaced them with CDs, mostly.
But you could get very good results with a quality tape and a good deck like a top end Aiwa or a Nakamichi. if you don't agree you've either forgotten or you never heard one!
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Post by antonio on Aug 16, 2019 14:12:43 GMT
I think 'we' in the UK have to remember that elsewhere in the world, services aren't given away for next to nothing as they often are here, but sold at a fair rate for the work involved. To the likes of many of us forum peeps, amps like this look expensive for what appears to be on offer, but then, the designer has to get the boards drawn up and made if he/she can't do this themselves, most of the components look to be surface mount so I suspect a third party board-stuffer has to make them, the case is a bespoke one by the looks of it and how many are going to be made in a batch - 10,000 at a time, or maybe a hundred or even fifty? Believe me, the numbers made for domestic audio use are barely worth these third parties' time (Rega had this trouble with turntable plinth quantities at one time, the numbers they wanted being pitiful for their suppliers I was told). I suspect Hypex and similar modules are made in significantly larger quantities so can be made cheaper, possibly in a country with give-away labour rates for all I know... Sorry Dave (Antonio), I've learned that very small scale amp manufacturing like this really does cost dear if it's going to be profitable and the NVA stuff I've enjoyed making up for the last five years is going to have to increase in price if the new company is going to be viable, especially as it's mostly hand assembled with a lot of point to point wiring and not sold in large quantities... No need to be sorry Dave, it's usually me arguing, when others are saying something is overpriced. Don't bring in NVA as an example, as Brookie said "he's taking the piss". I just looked at these amps expecting the price to no more than £500 for the pair. I'll happily wait for Oli's review, although I'd like to try em against my A60, or even my brother's monos.
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orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Aug 16, 2019 14:47:10 GMT
although I'd like to try em against my A60, or even my brother's monos. Once Oli is done we can try to arrange this. I think Oli is also going to be taking these to a bake-off somewhere, he can confirm this.
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Post by dsjr on Aug 16, 2019 16:24:29 GMT
That's Antonio there. I have home-made NVA based power amps here and the larger one, based on the AP70 integrated, does seem very good and more 'straight laced' sounding than the colourful and charming character smaller models I was making, up until RD passed away.
Lord, I wish I wasn't so bloody far away from the 'action' these days. 'Up North' has had a keen do-it-yourself presence in audio for decades now and people seem able to travel hundreds of miles up and down very busy roads and railways to attend bake-offs which I just can't do (waily waily). That's why I spend so much time on bloomin' forums - cough.....
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Post by macca on Aug 16, 2019 17:04:02 GMT
I don't know why, you've got a motor. Life's too short to not do the stuff you want to do.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 18:34:07 GMT
Orchard Audio – BOSC Class D Monoblock Amplifiers PART 1
The BOSC is the brain child of Leo, who has been developing his OA brand for the last couple of years. The amps are all analogue and have a total output of 150w.
Diminutive in size, barely bigger then a CD Jewel case on the face and maybe 2 inches deep, they are designed to be on short speaker cables and hidden behind your speaker, an antidote to ego stroking big brand mentality.
The amps were left running and in place for 48hrs prior to any critical listening.
The system consisted of a DCB1 preamp, Pioneer CS-77A Speakers, Allo Boss & RPI streaming via JRiver and Spotfire Cables throughout, which although isn’t the ideal setup, is the only setup I had available to use. Real world situations exist here so I felt it served a purpose.
I started the listening with a few well know (to me) tracks and although I felt the amps were incredibly clear, I wasn’t feeling particularly “connected” to the songs. I tried a few tracks and I just wasn’t getting into the songs in the same way as usual. I decided to try a meatier set of cables, so I dug out my Spotfire “Emeralds” from the garage and plumbed them in. The Emeralds have a chunkier sound, so it was a good start that the BOSC demonstrated what I knew to be true already.
I put a few tracks on and straight away I felt a bit more involved but still felt like a bit of something was missing. I contacted Leo and explained that, and he said if I was to use shorter speaker cables, all would be well. I hadn’t got anything sufficient at this time, so I thought I’d just listen and get something sorted out later.
I put on Dave Brubecks “Take 5” and sure enough, the bit that was missing was some “slam” The kick drum that forms the start of the song didn’t quite hit me in the chest in the way I have become accustomed to. However, before I knew it, I had just finished the whole album and hadn’t noticed the last hour or so had passed.
Hmm, I thought in a puzzled way.
Donavon was next. Universal solder to be precise. Donavon’s vocals soared out of the speakers in a way I haven’t experienced before. They were so clean and clear that I was genuinely taken aback. I sat here listening to the songs, one after another and again, the last song of the album came on and yes, I’d listened to every track intently, but the time had flown. I thought I had better write a few things down and decided to start with the gob iron (harmonica)
The gob iron and Donovans vocals were absolutely crystal clear. I will say this now……….OPEN WINDOW
I haven’t had an amplifier here that gets you as deep into to the recording as the BOSC. Stunningly transparent and neutral. I was hearing the tape “warble” on the second guitar track. I was hearing fret buzz, contrasting harmonics from the strings on the guitar, the plectrum land on the strings, you name it, if the mic picked it up, I was getting it here. Revelatory. I played a plethora of acoustic guitar tracks and every one of them drew me in and captivated me.
I needed to change genre and did so.
Madness – Greatest hits.
House of fun started up and yes, superb clarity and transparency but the lower registers were slightly recessed, and I wasn't really “feeling” the bass line. Don’t get me wrong, the detail from the bass is there but its not punching my chest. I am a huge believer that the bass line underpins everything else, so if that’s not right, we ain’t gonna get on!
I must try something loud.
On went Metallica – The God that failed.
Unfortunately, in this instance it was the amp that failed, failed to give me sufficient levels of chest vibrations.
Again, I am hearing details and layers of this track that I have NEVER heard before but IMO its missing the weight I know this track gives and more importantly, I am not wanting to smash the house up and scream the lyrics at my neighbours wall. This is a problem.
I decide to do a bit more experimentation and play a few tracks via vinyl. For almost everything, the bass issue isn’t and issue via vinyl and again, I have spent at least 2 hours just letting albums run through and enjoyed every second of them.
I decide to see whether the amps would sound as good via Volumio. As suspected and in accordance with my experience, Volumio “fattens” the sound somewhat and this is very apparent here. I played “Talk Tonight” by Oasis and by god, the hairs stood up on end, but it lost some nuances, micro detail and a bit of the imaging, likely caused by the lack of up-sampling without JRiver. I was streaming at 32/96 and now we’re at 16bit. Once again, the whole Oasis back catalogue is at risk of being auditioned and I must get up and walk away for a few minutes to get my brain around what I have heard.
SO, what do I think?..........
The BOSC are phenomenal imagers. I played some classical music via vinyl and sat here feeling like I was at a Royal tea party. It was all very polite and dignified. An air of prim and proper about it. Delightful, but not dramatic, Safe not stirring.
I played some acoustic guitar tracks and I heard deep into the recording. I was absorbed and engrossed. I played some metal and whilst being dazzled by the amount of detail and new things I hadn’t heard before, I didn’t feel very metal at all. No head banging, not screaming at the neighbors and the family were all relatively unperturbed by my behavior.
Truth is, I loved most of my music via the BOSC but it seemed to me that the experience varied, alum by album. On the good stuff, they were phenomenal. Bass was tight and dynamic, and the clarity was unbelievable at times. However, on other stuff, it was like the bottom end had been rolled off and the emphasis was on the HF. I’d like to say that it was poor mixing or something but I have material here that is deliberately mixed to have a hump in the mids and it sounded “normal”.
29 Palms – Robert Plant being one of them. I have this track for this exact reason and yet through the BOSC, it sounded normal....balanced.
The Beatles 50th anniversary Sgt. Pepper always sounds a little bass heavy here, regardless of amplifier and again, it just didn’t. So there are a couple of reasons why this could be….
1) The BOSC need shorter speaker cables as advised or
2) The BOSC are a little lean.
Tomorrow I will investigate further.
To be Continued.
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Post by dsjr on Aug 16, 2019 18:44:30 GMT
They don't thicken the tones like the old Krell did?
Without having heard them, I could say 'Welcome to the world of professional amplification!'
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 18:50:09 GMT
They don't thicken the tones like the old Krell did?
Without having heard them, I could say 'Welcome to the world of professional amplification!'
No they don't Dave. I'm still sitting here listening and the more I do, the more convinced I am becoming that they are completely transparent, tonally.
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orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Aug 16, 2019 18:59:56 GMT
They don't thicken the tones like the old Krell did? Without having heard them, I could say 'Welcome to the world of professional amplification!'
No they don't Dave. I'm still sitting here listening and the more I do, the more convinced I am becoming that they are completely transparent, tonally. The idea behind these Amps is to be as close as possible to the ideal flat wire with gain... And based on your findings this seems to be the case...
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Post by dsjr on Aug 16, 2019 19:05:49 GMT
I don't know why, you've got a motor. Life's too short to not do the stuff you want to do. If I was single and free, I'd think the same and do likewise - and did before I chose marriage and family over bloody stereo sets with fridge size speakers I'm told that (reviewer) Jimmy Hughes referred to my life then as 'HiFi Virginity!'
Anyway, sorry to go so far off topic. I reckon I'd love these amps and so would the likes of the Harbeths...
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Post by macca on Aug 16, 2019 19:11:26 GMT
They don't thicken the tones like the old Krell did?
Without having heard them, I could say 'Welcome to the world of professional amplification!'
That'd be the old Krell I'm listening to now? Nah it doesn't thicken tones. I'd not be listening to it if it did that! But it does have some character to it. More than I'd expect these Orchard amps to have anyway. I think you might be right in that the amps are exposing the speaker's lack of deeper bass that the Krell in some way compensated for. Will be interested to see if the short speaker cables change it all. In theory it shouldn't make a blind bit of difference.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 16, 2019 19:16:46 GMT
No they don't Dave. I'm still sitting here listening and the more I do, the more convinced I am becoming that they are completely transparent, tonally. The idea behind these Amps is to be as close as possible to the ideal flat wire with gain... And based on your findings this seems to be the case... Things will get interesting when the Neurochrome turns up. My moneys on it being closer to the Orchard Audi’s, but with a bit more bottom end.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 19:21:55 GMT
No they don't Dave. I'm still sitting here listening and the more I do, the more convinced I am becoming that they are completely transparent, tonally. The idea behind these Amps is to be as close as possible to the ideal flat wire with gain... And based on your findings this seems to be the case... And would you say your amps are more... wire-like than Peter Walker's?
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Post by macca on Aug 16, 2019 19:27:35 GMT
From a technical point of view they are. Whether that is audible, or is even a good thing, are different questions
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 19:54:07 GMT
They don't thicken the tones like the old Krell did?
Without having heard them, I could say 'Welcome to the world of professional amplification!'
That'd be the old Krell I'm listening to now? Nah it doesn't thicken tones. I'd not be listening to it if it did that! But it does have some character to it. More than I'd expect these Orchard amps to have anyway. I think you might be right in that the amps are exposing the speaker's lack of deeper bass that the Krell in some way compensated for. Will be interested to see if the short speaker cables change it all. In theory it shouldn't make a blind bit of difference. The Krell does have a meatier sound, no doubt in my mind about that. What I don't understand is, if the speakers don't have deeper bass, how did they have it with the Krell? They can't do something that they Can't physically do.
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Post by dsjr on Aug 16, 2019 19:55:54 GMT
My take on these first generation krells was that they could sound slightly 'cloudy.' Probably disrespectful and obviously limited by the preamps of the day, bu tit's a long time since I heard an original Krell. The krell 50S isn't like that at all and possibly slightly 'literal' in presentation, as my geriatric D-150 is.
Please remember that high damping factor (low output impedance) can have the effect of totally changing the bass quality as well as flattening the frequency response of a speaker otherwise altered by a higher output impedance (best shown in numerous Stereophile valve/tube amp reviews - look for the Prima Luna measurements for a bit of a technical horror story which owners absolutely swear by).
Peter Walker's amps were anything but a pure straight wire with gain, Quad only suggested that an 'ideal' amp should be so in their view. Peter and his team DID 'listen' to their amps, but not to music when they were testing. Moreover, they claimed that they listened for distortions and other nasties, so in the final design stage, they could tune the designs to get distortions as far out of the audible way as possible. Only then would they pass the designs for production I gather.
I rather think we've gone beyond that stage now, but there are definitely some popular amp makes that have added character that owners find difficult to live without.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 19:55:57 GMT
The idea behind these Amps is to be as close as possible to the ideal flat wire with gain... And based on your findings this seems to be the case... Things will get interesting when the Neurochrome turns up. My moneys on it being closer to the Orchard Audi’s, but with a bit more bottom end. Just have to wait and see. I think they will sound more similar than dissimilar, like you say. That will be an enjoyable comparison
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 19:58:21 GMT
peter walkers amps were anything but a pure straight wire with gain, Quad only suggested that an 'ideal' amp should be so in their view. Peter and his team DID 'listen' to their amps, but not to music when they were testing. Moreover, they claimed that they listened for distortions and other nasties, so in the final design stage, they could tune the designs to get distortions as far out of the audible way as possible. I rather think we've gone beyond that stage now, but there are definitely some popular amp makes that have added character that owners find difficult to live without. It's only taken a few years but you and I are agreeing Dave lol Definitely feeling like Krell, Mcintosh and the like managed to do this. Bruno Putzeys suggested he could make his amps sound like any other brand, but he didn't want that. He wanted the straight wire with gain that I have here with Leo's stuff.
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Post by dsjr on Aug 16, 2019 20:07:12 GMT
You've caught up you mean? Don't worry, the more I think I know, the more I realise I don't Fun learning though...
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orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Aug 16, 2019 20:15:14 GMT
This is most likely what Oli is describing as the damping factor of this amp is very high > 600.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 20:27:40 GMT
You've caught up you mean? Don't worry, the more I think I know, the more I realise I don't Fun learning though... Hahaha, cheeky! Lol
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orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Aug 16, 2019 20:41:00 GMT
This is most likely what Oli is describing as the damping factor of this amp is very high > 600. If this is the case putting the amp on even shorter wires would only make this effect more apparent.
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Post by macca on Aug 16, 2019 21:06:21 GMT
That'd be the old Krell I'm listening to now? Nah it doesn't thicken tones. I'd not be listening to it if it did that! But it does have some character to it. More than I'd expect these Orchard amps to have anyway. I think you might be right in that the amps are exposing the speaker's lack of deeper bass that the Krell in some way compensated for. Will be interested to see if the short speaker cables change it all. In theory it shouldn't make a blind bit of difference. The Krell does have a meatier sound, no doubt in my mind about that. What I don't understand is, if the speakers don't have deeper bass, how did they have it with the Krell? They can't do something that they Can't physically do. Could be other possibilities. impedance matching between the pre and power for example. Probably the most obvious reason is being overlooked - the Krell is just better in the bass. I mean class D amps have been around longer than Krell has existed as a company, there's always a trade off with any topology - and so forth. The Krell is a massive leccy guzzling fan heater for a reason. Don't suppose there is any chance of you bringing them up the motorway and we can have a listen here?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 21:09:01 GMT
The Krell does have a meatier sound, no doubt in my mind about that. What I don't understand is, if the speakers don't have deeper bass, how did they have it with the Krell? They can't do something that they Can't physically do. Could be other possibilities. impedance matching between the pre and power for example. Probably the most obvious reason is being overlooked - the Krell is just better in the bass. I mean class D amps have been around longer than Krell has existed as a company, there's always a trade off with any topology - and so forth. The Krell is a massive leccy guzzling fan heater for a reason. Don't suppose there is any chance of you bringing them up the motorway and we can have a listen here? Impedance matching is something I have thought about. I will try and get up to yours for a couple of hours. I'll PM you when I've had a chat with the gaffer about plans.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2019 8:10:05 GMT
This is most likely what Oli is describing as the damping factor of this amp is very high > 600.
Genuine question... Jez Arkless is adamant that a damping factor over say 20 has negligible effect and one of say 500 is maybe only 1% greater than 20 in damping terms. Don't quote me on the exact figures but you get the gist, any thoughts on this one?
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Post by sq225917 on Aug 17, 2019 8:22:52 GMT
Hes right, beyond a certain ratio all the damping factor in the world doesnt add anything more. Same with headphone amps and output impedance related frequency shifts, once youre under half an ohm it makes no difference if its 0.1 ohm or 0.0001
If the damping factor is 600 changing the length of the cables to the speakers shouldn't make any difference, at least not if they're unconditionally stable...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2019 8:26:58 GMT
Hes right, beyond a certain ratio all the damping factor in the world doesnt add anything more. Same with headphone amps and output impedance related frequency shifts, once youre under half an ohm it makes no difference if its 0.1 ohm or 0.0001 So we can rule out damping factor then lol
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orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Aug 17, 2019 17:01:16 GMT
Hes right, beyond a certain ratio all the damping factor in the world doesnt add anything more. Same with headphone amps and output impedance related frequency shifts, once youre under half an ohm it makes no difference if its 0.1 ohm or 0.0001 So we can rule out damping factor then lol Have you tried with the PecanPi yet? If you get the same result with the PecanPi then it's probably damping factor as there will not be an impedance mismatch between PecanPi and BOSC. BOSC is DC coupled so bass delivery should be very good.
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