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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 11:20:27 GMT
Giving these the once over. Class D with some utterly impressive specs.
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Post by macca on Aug 15, 2019 12:12:34 GMT
Just been reading this review of them here theaudiobeatnik.com/reviewing-the-orchard-audio-bosc-monoblocks/
he likes them a lot but some of the stuff he comes out with is bizarre:
Once in front of the speakers, the details in the high-end pulled me into the recording. They were so clear and present without being brittle, too aggressive or fatiguing. It was like someone had replaced the little silk dome tweeters on the PMC speakers with something similar to ribbons
Eh?
and
Next came In Session with Albert King and Stevie Ray Vaughan, as it always tickles me to hear blues through digital gear. It kind of just seems so wrong
WTF?
There seems to be loads of these little review blogs now and they are all littered with these ridiculous statements.
And why is he cleaning the house instead of listening properly? Doesn't he have a wife?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 12:40:57 GMT
I'm starting to hate these Hi-Fi reviews. Sorry, but I find most of them so false and pathetic.
S.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 15, 2019 12:46:09 GMT
I got bored, started skim reading then gave up after about 30 seconds. When you have Linn Kans to listen to, time is precious!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 14:29:48 GMT
Just been reading this review of them here theaudiobeatnik.com/reviewing-the-orchard-audio-bosc-monoblocks/
he likes them a lot but some of the stuff he comes out with is bizarre:
Once in front of the speakers, the details in the high-end pulled me into the recording. They were so clear and present without being brittle, too aggressive or fatiguing. It was like someone had replaced the little silk dome tweeters on the PMC speakers with something similar to ribbons
Eh?
and
Next came In Session with Albert King and Stevie Ray Vaughan, as it always tickles me to hear blues through digital gear. It kind of just seems so wrong
WTF?
There seems to be loads of these little review blogs now and they are all littered with these ridiculous statements.
And why is he cleaning the house instead of listening properly? Doesn't he have a wife? Yes a bit odd isn't it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 14:52:51 GMT
Not being funny but watch those speaker connections, looks like the +ve in the top picture is going to pop out.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 15, 2019 15:10:52 GMT
Not being funny but watch those speaker connections, looks like the +ve in the top picture is going to pop out. Well spotted!
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Post by dsjr on Aug 15, 2019 15:34:54 GMT
Subjective bloggers are to me the worst of them all. Jumped up prats who want to be heard and who speak the audiophool speak (maybe it takes one to know one, ymmv). There's a cartridge bod on Youtube who seriously grinds my gears. He says he hates 'digital' so that alone colours both his and my sensibilities and absolutely no reference to a known good sonic reference for his comparisons, so it's all his personal uneducated opinion at that moment and really no use to anyone... Send him to a bloody studio first so he can see how records are mastered and cut and get an idea what it should sound like!
I expect those amps to be very good indeed and any measurable distortion way below our abilities to hear it. I *think* current top quality Class D amps are absolutely benign where speaker loads are concerned, seem good now at all audio frequencies and the extra power means no soft clipping at normal levels so a more effortless and less compressed presentation, maybe making the effect slightly dry compared to soft clippers more usually used domestically. Orchard have too much of a rep at stake to inflict crap on unsuspecting punters... Tiny too, so you could almost hide them away rather than show them off as a badge of honour as many stereo's seem to be presented...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 15:38:17 GMT
Not being funny but watch those speaker connections, looks like the +ve in the top picture is going to pop out. Nah, they are all good. I checked.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 15:58:16 GMT
Subjective bloggers are to me the worst of them all. Jumped up prats who want to be heard and who speak the audiophool speak (maybe it takes one to know one, ymmv). There's a cartridge bod on Youtube who seriously grinds my gears. He says he hates 'digital' so that alone colours both his and my sensibilities and absolutely no reference to a known good sonic reference for his comparisons, so it's all his personal uneducated opinion at that moment and really no use to anyone... Send him to a bloody studio first so he can see how records are mastered and cut and get an idea what it should sound like! I expect those amps to be very good indeed and any measurable distortion way below our abilities to hear it. I *think* current top quality Class D amps are absolutely benign where speaker loads are concerned, seem good now at all audio frequencies and the extra power means no soft clipping at normal levels so a more effortless and less compressed presentation, maybe making the effect slightly dry compared to soft clippers more usually used domestically. Orchard have too much of a rep at stake to inflict crap on unsuspecting punters... Tiny too, so you could almost hide them away rather than show them off as a badge of honour as many stereo's seem to be presented... They are supposed to be on extremely short speaker wires and hidden behind the speakers but I haven't got anything short enough to try that with. Sonically, they are incessantly clean and don't seem to impart anything on the sound. Macca would love these. I'm impressed so far but they need to open up a touch. Everything still feels a bit "fresh out the factory".
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Post by dsjr on Aug 15, 2019 16:36:14 GMT
They won't compress. I have a hunch that amps with proper dynamic range don't sound as 'cosy' and 'atmospheric' as those which compress, soft clip or have what I know as narrow power bandwidths, thes elatter possibly 'rounding off' high frequencies.. My ancient Crown D-150 is like this an dback in the early 70's, 90WPC was seen as very powerful indeed, the DC300A regarded as an animal at 175WPC minimum. When there's atmosphere in the recording, it's there, but if not it isn't, the amp not adding its own flavour all over the music as other amps I have here do.
While your ears are 'opening up' to them, just see if the sound changes more with different recordings played via them. if it does, job done for the amp designer. If every recording sounds the same, I'd worry a bit and wait for the Neurochrome to arrive.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2019 16:53:39 GMT
They won't compress. I have a hunch that amps with proper dynamic range don't sound as 'cosy' and 'atmospheric' as those which compress, soft clip or have what I know as narrow power bandwidths, thes elatter possibly 'rounding off' high frequencies.. My ancient Crown D-150 is like this an dback in the early 70's, 90WPC was seen as very powerful indeed, the DC300A regarded as an animal at 175WPC minimum. When there's atmosphere in the recording, it's there, but if not it isn't, the amp not adding its own flavour all over the music as other amps I have here do. While your ears are 'opening up' to them, just see if the sound changes more with different recordings played via them. if it does, job done for the amp designer. If every recording sounds the same, I'd worry a bit and wait for the Neurochrome to arrive. Oh they definitely sound different with every album I've played. No doubt about that. Listening to some classical via Vinyl, which is rare for me but these amps are exceptionally quick. Fleet of foot so to speak. Nimble maybe but everything is stop start on a 5pnce. They are doing stuff the Krell didn't manage but at the same time, that Krell slam and the mahoosive dynamic swings aren't there in the same degree. Listening to this classical album, I am seriously feeling like I'm at the Queens Garden party. It has a really refined and dignified way of delivering the music. I'll be putting some Metallica through them tomorrow to see how they handle that. So far, so good.
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Post by sq225917 on Aug 15, 2019 21:50:15 GMT
Analogue YouTube blogger hates digital, oooh the irony.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 16, 2019 5:59:06 GMT
It was the part about wanting his heart to stop that really put me off. Overkill.
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Post by antonio on Aug 16, 2019 9:59:12 GMT
$1499. You can buy a really good amp for that, and there are new classD I've seen (names escape me) which look a lot better value than these.
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orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Aug 16, 2019 10:32:45 GMT
Giving these the once over. Class D with some utterly impressive specs. Thanks for the mention. If anybody has questions, don't hesitate to ask.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 11:17:40 GMT
$1499. You can buy a really good amp for that, and there are new classD I've seen (names escape me) which look a lot better value than these. Well, OK they aren't cheap but let's be fair, these have been designed from the ground up. From an idea to completion. Far from the likes of Nord and Apollon, who are using ready made Hypex units. That's a lot of work! They are using right up the minute technology and untill they've been compared against a few other "named" Amplifiers, its hard to know where they sit in terms of performance in the big scheme of things. I haven't looked inside yet but will. Personally, I like everything to be cheaper lol
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orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Aug 16, 2019 11:23:40 GMT
$1499. You can buy a really good amp for that, and there are new classD I've seen (names escape me) which look a lot better value than these. I haven't looked inside yet but will. I'll save you the trouble...here is what the circuit board inside looks like:
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 11:28:11 GMT
I haven't looked inside yet but will. I'll save you the trouble...here is what the circuit board inside looks like: Thanks for the picture. Tidy little thing!
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Post by dsjr on Aug 16, 2019 11:46:07 GMT
I think 'we' in the UK have to remember that elsewhere in the world, services aren't given away for next to nothing as they often are here, but sold at a fair rate for the work involved. To the likes of many of us forum peeps, amps like this look expensive for what appears to be on offer, but then, the designer has to get the boards drawn up and made if he/she can't do this themselves, most of the components look to be surface mount so I suspect a third party board-stuffer has to make them, the case is a bespoke one by the looks of it and how many are going to be made in a batch - 10,000 at a time, or maybe a hundred or even fifty? Believe me, the numbers made for domestic audio use are barely worth these third parties' time (Rega had this trouble with turntable plinth quantities at one time, the numbers they wanted being pitiful for their suppliers I was told). I suspect Hypex and similar modules are made in significantly larger quantities so can be made cheaper, possibly in a country with give-away labour rates for all I know...
Sorry Dave (Antonio), I've learned that very small scale amp manufacturing like this really does cost dear if it's going to be profitable and the NVA stuff I've enjoyed making up for the last five years is going to have to increase in price if the new company is going to be viable, especially as it's mostly hand assembled with a lot of point to point wiring and not sold in large quantities...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 11:54:42 GMT
I think 'we' in the UK have to remember that elsewhere in the world, services aren't given away for next to nothing as they often are here, but sold at a fair rate for the work involved. To the likes of many of us forum peeps, amps like this look expensive for what appears to be on offer, but then, the designer has to get the boards drawn up and made if he/she can't do this themselves, most of the components look to be surface mount so I suspect a third party board-stuffer has to make them, the case is a bespoke one by the looks of it and how many are going to be made in a batch - 10,000 at a time, or maybe a hundred or even fifty? Believe me, the numbers made for domestic audio use are barely worth these third parties' time (Rega had this trouble with turntable plinth quantities at one time, the numbers they wanted being pitiful for their suppliers I was told). I suspect Hypex and similar modules are made in significantly larger quantities so can be made cheaper, possibly in a country with give-away labour rates for all I know... Sorry Dave (Antonio), I've learned that very small scale amp manufacturing like this really does cost dear if it's going to be profitable and the NVA stuff I've enjoyed making up for the last five years is going to have to increase in price if the new company is going to be viable, especially as it's mostly hand assembled with a lot of point to point wiring and not sold in large quantities... You've got a point there Dave. Small quantities, which these most certainly will be, are always significantly more expensive to make. The numbers are probably more like 10 boards, two needed for a set of amps which gives 5 complete pairs. Then you have the custom power units and before you know it, you're £4/500 deep into it per unit. I'm afraid that unless you actually go through this path (as I have) it's not always obvious where the cost comes from. The Phonostage (mine) costs about £5/600 PER UNIT to make, and that's without any valves in it. Its an expensive project and when people want a loan unit, it's then getting bashed about by Mr Postie, becoming a used unit so losing profit and often comes back in need of a repair. Like I said, they aren't cheap, but they aren't unreasonable.
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Post by macca on Aug 16, 2019 11:58:28 GMT
Economy of scale is everything when it comes to pricing. It's why Technics could offer the (old) SL1200 at just £500 retail. Boutique audio is always going to be sold at boutique prices, otherwise it wouldn't exist at all.
And that's before you consider the phenomena of Veblen goods. Sometimes if you hike the price right up you'll sell more of them. Rich people don't want to buy stuff that anyone could afford. I mean otherwise what's the point of being rich?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 12:00:35 GMT
Economy of scale is everything when it comes to pricing. It's why Technics could offer the (old) SL1200 at just £500 retail. Boutique audio is always going to be sold at boutique prices, otherwise it wouldn't exist at all. And that's before you consider the phenomena of Veblen goods. Sometimes if you hike the price right up you'll sell more of them. Rich people don't want to buy stuff that anyone could afford. I mean otherwise what's the point of being rich? Haha, that is so true.
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Post by macca on Aug 16, 2019 12:04:54 GMT
What is the power output, 8 ohm/ 4ohm?
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orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Aug 16, 2019 12:08:10 GMT
What is the power output, 8 ohm/ 4ohm? 150W. The amp comes in two configurations. One for 4ohm and one for 8ohm. Both have 150W output into the respective load. The gain for the 4ohm version is 1.41 times lower than that of the 8 ohm version. Otherwise they are identical.
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Post by dsjr on Aug 16, 2019 12:08:20 GMT
I just feel there really are hidden costs in some of this stuff. Of course the kind of electronics often reviewed by HiFi news has beggar all inside and doesn't always test out that well, but that's likely because of the Veblen effect, which I wasn't fully aware of until recently (thanks for reminding me macca). The Orchard Audio chap, whom I've followed by lurking on ASR for some months now ( ), will know of that TotalDac thingie from France, which performs worse than many original 1983 era CD players I believe, yet sells to devoted audiophile followers for 13,000 Euros or similar with a huge cachet around it. I wish this little amp well and hope it sells in sufficient quantities that maybe the price could come down.
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Post by macca on Aug 16, 2019 12:10:22 GMT
What is the power output, 8 ohm/ 4ohm? 150W. The amp comes in two configurations. One for 4ohm and one for 8ohm. Both have 150W output into the respective load. The gain for the 4ohm version is 1.41 times lower than that of the 8 ohm version. Otherwise they are identical. More than enough then
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orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Aug 16, 2019 12:12:34 GMT
150W. The amp comes in two configurations. One for 4ohm and one for 8ohm. Both have 150W output into the respective load. The gain for the 4ohm version is 1.41 times lower than that of the 8 ohm version. Otherwise they are identical. More than enough then Yep especially if you have high sensitivity speakers.
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Post by macca on Aug 16, 2019 12:15:18 GMT
that TotalDac thingie from France, which performs worse than many original 1983 era CD players I believe, It performs worse than some turntables, never mind early CD players...
Actually one thing they do point out on ASR (although possibly not enough) is that all their measured distortions won't be at all audible. If they were vinyl would never have caught on in the first place. Or compact cassette.
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Post by dsjr on Aug 16, 2019 12:21:36 GMT
An early 14 bit Philips CD player 'sounded' far better when it's output was recorded on a top line Nakamichi cassette deck (TDK metal tape I think). These early Philips players gave me a headache (the Sony 101 didn't) but the tape recording was absolutely fine.
Thing with cassettes was that the record companies thought it was a crap medium and compressed and limited the music recorded on them accordingly. My ex-mastering engineer pal surprised his Decca colleagues how good it could be when he took his own live recordings in transferred to cassette and with no messing around. I need to get my old three head Denon out to use - I still have a box of cassettes in the loft, all metal type so they shouldn't have gone off much of at all...
Vinyl? well, you know that there's thousands of audiophiles (audiophools?) in the far east who still refuse to even look at that new fangled 'digital' thing going on everywhere else.........
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