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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2019 13:15:48 GMT
First point - of course it is your prerogative to be rolling on the floor laughing, but the people who have bought them are clearly happy. I've got no problem with them being happy. I've got no problem with you having the view that they are happy. Have you got a problem with me thinking that they have taken leave of their senses? yes I do have a problem with that because it is quite possible that you or I will also hear a difference even if the reality is that there is none. Both conscious and subconscious cues (like knowing the device is in circuit) are all that is necessary for the brain to make up its own story. We are all susceptible to this although some will be more susceptible than others. This is why we get all the 'objectivist/subjectivist' antagonism. The subs don't appreciate the power of the mind to invent things and clumsy objectivists give the impression that they are immune to it (and therefore superior to the subs) by saying things like 'you have taken leave of your senses'. |
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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2019 13:18:43 GMT
I've got no problem with them being happy. I've got no problem with you having the view that they are happy. Have you got a problem with me thinking that they have taken leave of their senses? I would call Coherent if I wanted to know more about it, but that's just me. You'd be wasting your time though because it's pretty clear from what he's said so far that he doesn't have a clue how it works. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 13:19:24 GMT
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 11, 2019 13:19:40 GMT
I've got no problem with them being happy. I've got no problem with you having the view that they are happy. Have you got a problem with me thinking that they have taken leave of their senses? yes I do have a problem with that because it is quite possible that you or I will also hear a difference even if the reality is that there is none. Both conscious and subconscious cues (like knowing the device is in circuit) are all that is necessary for the brain to make up its own story. We are all susceptible to this although some will be more susceptible than others. This is why we get all the 'objectivist/subjectivist' antagonism. The subs don't appreciate the power of the mind to invent things and clumsy objectivists give the impression that they are immune to it (and therefore superior to the subs) by saying things like 'you have taken leave of your senses'. My 'taken leave of their senses' is about the pricing. Not the listening. |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 11, 2019 13:22:12 GMT
I've got no problem with them being happy. I've got no problem with you having the view that they are happy. Have you got a problem with me thinking that they have taken leave of their senses? Yes, what right do you have to judge them? Judge the product, yes that is fine, preferably if you had tried it first Although I would call Coherent if I wanted to know more about it, but that's just me. My 'taken leave of their senses' comment is in respect of pricing. What right do I have to have an opinion? The same right as you. |
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 13:24:25 GMT
I would call Coherent if I wanted to know more about it, but that's just me. You'd be wasting your time though because it's pretty clear from what he's said so far that he doesn't have a clue how it works. Maybe true, but then he is saying that on an open forum, wouldn't you be less happy to discuss it in that environment? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 13:29:07 GMT
Of course cost is a factor. I'm not getting het up about anyone paying £4k plus for a box of magic sauce and a few cables...I am 'rolling on the floor laughing my arse off', though, as 'da yoof' might say. PS. If you do think the 'Macca Nanas' make a difference...they are only £1k each. Let me know. PPS. Why would you be bovvered about me not being bovvered about you being bovvered?  First point - of course it is your prerogative to be rolling on the floor laughing, but the people who have bought them are clearly happy.How many of them and how can you know that. Or are you going by a few 'cherry picked' testimonials somewhere? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 13:36:11 GMT
Good point Wal, some testimonials would be nice.
Perhaps a grounding box bake off in the future....
Luv to hear how that one would pan out...😂
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 13:38:27 GMT
First point - of course it is your prerogative to be rolling on the floor laughing, but the people who have bought them are clearly happy.How many of them and how can you know that. Or are you going by a few 'cherry picked' testimonials somewhere? Ok so the people that have bought them that have been vocal on forums, Geoff, is that better? |
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 13:41:29 GMT
Yes, what right do you have to judge them? Judge the product, yes that is fine, preferably if you had tried it first Although I would call Coherent if I wanted to know more about it, but that's just me. My 'taken leave of their senses' comment is in respect of pricing. What right do I have to have an opinion? The same right as you. But again, if they have the available disposable income and they are happy with the product and the amount they have spent, why have they taken leave of their senses? |
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 13:41:59 GMT
Good point Wal, some testimonials would be nice. Perhaps a grounding box bake off in the future.... Luv to hear how that one would pan out...😂 Now then Jammy, that would be a good experiment wouldn't it. |
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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2019 13:49:15 GMT
You'd be wasting your time though because it's pretty clear from what he's said so far that he doesn't have a clue how it works. Maybe true, but then he is saying that on an open forum, wouldn't you be less happy to discuss it in that environment? if I wasn't happy to discuss the workings then I'd just say nothing. I wouldn't obfuscate and give explanations that are clearly just bullshit, which is what he has done. Part of the reason given for the high price is the extensive R&D. Yet he doesn't even have a THD+N measurement that he can post up. Even if it showed nothing it would at least indicate that some R&D had been done. |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 11, 2019 13:55:15 GMT
My 'taken leave of their senses' comment is in respect of pricing. What right do I have to have an opinion? The same right as you. But again, if they have the available disposable income and they are happy with the product and the amount they have spent, why have they taken leave of their senses? Simples. Paying more than they need to... How are you getting on with the £1000 bananas? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 13:58:12 GMT
But again, if they have the available disposable income and they are happy with the product and the amount they have spent, why have they taken leave of their senses? Simples. Paying more than they need to... How are you getting on with the £1000 bananas?Obviously he won't know yet. Banana 'burn in' can take many weeks. |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 11, 2019 13:59:17 GMT
Simples. Paying more than they need to... How are you getting on with the £1000 bananas?Obviously he won't know yet. Banana 'burn in' can take many weeks. ROFLMAO!!!! |
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Post by nonuffin on Feb 11, 2019 14:01:47 GMT
Scoff you may my lad, but I have heard Shakti Stones make an audible difference to a high end system. I'm donald ducked if I know what goes on inside of them thar blocks though. Sighted test or properly controlled double blind? Sorry to come over all objectivist but when we move in to the realms of 'unknown unknowns' like shakti stones that sort of testing is essential. The imagination is very powerful. You might trust your ears but the ears are a passive device whilst the brain, the bit that actually does the listening, is very active. No-one is immune to that and you can't just decide that you are being objective in your listening. Does having my eyes shut classed as "blind" lol
To be honest Martin, the difference wasn't immense so it didn't send me rushing out to buy any for my own system. That clearly puts into context how much I personally valued the perceived sound improvement, but it does annoy me a tad when folks are so prejudiced against anything that does not sit comfortably with anything they do not understand.
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 14:05:41 GMT
But again, if they have the available disposable income and they are happy with the product and the amount they have spent, why have they taken leave of their senses? Simples. Paying more than they need to... How are you getting on with the £1000 bananas? How do you know they are paying more than they need to? Could you recommend something equal or better for less that you have heard? I haven’t had a chance to try the bananas yet, although I ate one for breakfast and it was yummy. Oh wait, will they be as effective now? |
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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2019 14:06:17 GMT
But again, if they have the available disposable income and they are happy with the product and the amount they have spent, why have they taken leave of their senses? Simples. Paying more than they need to... We don't know that for certain in this specific case though. |
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 14:06:37 GMT
Sighted test or properly controlled double blind? Sorry to come over all objectivist but when we move in to the realms of 'unknown unknowns' like shakti stones that sort of testing is essential. The imagination is very powerful. You might trust your ears but the ears are a passive device whilst the brain, the bit that actually does the listening, is very active. No-one is immune to that and you can't just decide that you are being objective in your listening. Does having my eyes shut classed as "blind" lol
To be honest Martin, the difference wasn't immense so it didn't send me rushing out to buy any for my own system. That clearly puts into context how much I personally valued the perceived sound improvement, but it does annoy me a tad when folks are so prejudiced against anything that does not sit comfortably with anything they do not understand.
Same as my point really. |
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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2019 14:12:01 GMT
Sighted test or properly controlled double blind? Sorry to come over all objectivist but when we move in to the realms of 'unknown unknowns' like shakti stones that sort of testing is essential. The imagination is very powerful. You might trust your ears but the ears are a passive device whilst the brain, the bit that actually does the listening, is very active. No-one is immune to that and you can't just decide that you are being objective in your listening. it does annoy me a tad when folks are so prejudiced against anything that does not sit comfortably with anything they do not understand.
If shakti stones do have an effect beyond the purely psychological then I can guarantee that no-one on this planet understands why. Like Han Solo I've been from one side of this galaxy to the other and I've seen a lot of crazy things. But when there's a simple, easily demonstrated explanation (unconscious bias in this case) I'll take that every time over 'There are forces in this world that we just can't explain.' |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 11, 2019 14:13:15 GMT
Simples. Paying more than they need to... We don't know that for certain in this specific case though. No, but we are building up a picture... Macca said "Part of the reason given for the high price is the extensive R&D. Yet he doesn't even have a THD+N measurement that he can post up. Even if it showed nothing it would at least indicate that some R&D had been done." |
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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2019 14:17:03 GMT
We don't know that for certain in this specific case though. No, but we are building up a picture... Macca said "Part of the reason given for the high price is the extensive R&D. Yet he doesn't even have a THD+N measurement that he can post up. Even if it showed nothing it would at least indicate that some R&D had been done." We are building up a picture but I like to give the benefit of the doubt until none remains. I'm stupid like that. |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 11, 2019 14:22:06 GMT
No, but we are building up a picture... Macca said "Part of the reason given for the high price is the extensive R&D. Yet he doesn't even have a THD+N measurement that he can post up. Even if it showed nothing it would at least indicate that some R&D had been done." We are building up a picture but I like to give the benefit of the doubt until none remains. I'm stupid like that. Again, remember that I am separating the pricing from the listening... I'm open minded about the listening. |
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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2019 14:40:49 GMT
Yes, I was also talking about the pricing.
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 11, 2019 14:47:28 GMT
Yes, I was also talking about the pricing. Fair enough. I've read enough about the way this is 'being done' to have made my mind up about the pricing. |
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 14:49:46 GMT
We are building up a picture but I like to give the benefit of the doubt until none remains. I'm stupid like that. Again, remember that I am separating the pricing from the listening... I'm open minded about the listening. But why does the price matter so much to you? Especially if you have zero intention of buying one? |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 11, 2019 14:57:28 GMT
Again, remember that I am separating the pricing from the listening... I'm open minded about the listening. But why does the price matter so much to you? Especially if you have zero intention of buying one? Because I want to put together the best possible system for the least possible money. Until the revolution, when we will all have equal means and privilege, how much something costs is still rather important. Why does my concern about price matter so much to you? |
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 15:13:21 GMT
But why does the price matter so much to you? Especially if you have zero intention of buying one? Because I want to put together the best possible system for the least possible money. Until the revolution, when we will all have equal means and privilege, how much something costs is still rather important. Why does my concern about price matter so much to you? I have absolutely no problem with you wanting to put together the best possible system for the least amount of money, that is just sensible. I was just concerned because all you seemed to be talking about with this product is the cost, it's £2.4k for the box and £600 for the cables, who cares if that is how much it costs and that is how much people are willing and able to spend on it, then good luck to them. |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 11, 2019 15:31:06 GMT
Because I want to put together the best possible system for the least possible money. Until the revolution, when we will all have equal means and privilege, how much something costs is still rather important. Why does my concern about price matter so much to you? I have absolutely no problem with you wanting to put together the best possible system for the least amount of money, that is just sensible. I was just concerned because all you seemed to be talking about with this product is the cost, it's £2.4k for the box and £600 for the cables, who cares if that is how much it costs and that is how much people are willing and able to spend on it, then good luck to them. Yes, I'm questioning the value for money. If you don't like that...tough. I'm not questioning your view that price is irrelevant to you. I disagree with your view but...hey, tough. It's just opinions. Shall we leave it there? Before 'the wheels on the bus go round and round' song gets stuck in my head? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 15:33:04 GMT
Because I want to put together the best possible system for the least possible money. Until the revolution, when we will all have equal means and privilege, how much something costs is still rather important. Why does my concern about price matter so much to you? I have absolutely no problem with you wanting to put together the best possible system for the least amount of money, that is just sensible. I was just concerned because all you seemed to be talking about with this product is the cost, it's £2.4k for the box and £600 for the cables, who cares if that is how much it costs and that is how much people are willing and able to spend on it, then good luck to them. You give the impression of being unduly bothered about others drawing attention to what on the face of it looks rather like unreasonable pricing. Surely it makes sense to ask what one is getting for the money, regardless of personal wealth. |
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