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Post by sq225917 on Feb 11, 2019 8:47:37 GMT
I agree - and now someone's had a listen and heard nothing happening - not just a small effect but nothing - I've changed my vote. I think it's just a parlour trick and if you're in the 'I want to believe' camp it will probably work. I mean how can people say the effect is obvious and someone else hear nothing? Two possible explanations: 1. It could be that the thing treats a weakness that some systems don’t have........or was this in the same system where others heard an obvious difference? 2. The other thing it could be doing is altering perception rather than output. Some folk would hear a difference and others not. Either way, although I’m not ready to label them as snake oil, it’s hard to see how the costs reflect performance. There is already zero evidence to show that the cost represents manufacturing or materials cost. More likely that the price is a reflection of manufacturer/seller greed and buyer’s need to feel “reassured” they have bought a high end product. Emperors do like to feel they have bought the best new clothes and suppliers are always ready to charge them accordingly. Altering perception? Really, in what way? How about a 3rd suggestion: They do absolutely nothing but some people will claim to hear a difference anyway because they have an emotional need to feel stuff like this works. (or a financial one) They could be altering perception? What it tunes into specific individuals only and makes their brains receptive to hearing a difference while others don't. |
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 11, 2019 9:02:55 GMT
Cool
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 9:09:04 GMT
It doesn't matter if what many regard as 'foo' products work or not. If for some reason you want and can afford one, you buy it. What gets me, is the apparent indignation of those who feel others should not reject such products.
I'm perfectly entitled to think something is rubbish and a total take on and I'm also entitled to express that view.
Having an 'open mind' is fine, just be careful not to fill that space with nonsense.
(Shakti Stones anybody?)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 9:14:01 GMT
It doesn't matter if what many regard as 'foo' products work or not. If for some reason you want and can afford one, you buy it. What gets me, is the apparent indignation of those who feel others should not reject such products. I'm perfectly entitled to think something is rubbish and a total take on and I'm also entitled to express that view. You have to do it 'nicely' though. Mheh. |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 11, 2019 10:11:24 GMT
Either way, although I’m not ready to label them as snake oil, it’s hard to see how the costs reflect performance. There is already zero evidence to show that the cost represents manufacturing or materials cost. More likely that the price is a reflection of manufacturer/seller greed and buyer’s need to feel “reassured” they have bought a high end product. Emperors do like to feel they have bought the best new clothes and suppliers are always ready to charge them accordingly. Even if the boxes did very little in sound terms I can tell you that the content materials are not cheap, so the notion of buying one for less than £100 is well off the radar I'm afraid. If the manufacturer (Coherent) is not saying what is inside it then how do you know? |
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 11:11:08 GMT
Even if the boxes did very little in sound terms I can tell you that the content materials are not cheap, so the notion of buying one for less than £100 is well off the radar I'm afraid. If the manufacturer (Coherent) is not saying what is inside it then how do you know? Has anyone actually asked him?, they have a phone number on their website. Tony is very approachable so I am sure he will be more than willing to have a discussion. |
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 11:13:16 GMT
It doesn't matter if what many regard as 'foo' products work or not. If for some reason you want and can afford one, you buy it. What gets me, is the apparent indignation of those who feel others should not reject such products. I'm perfectly entitled to think something is rubbish and a total take on and I'm also entitled to express that view. Having an 'open mind' is fine, just be careful not to fill that space with nonsense. (Shakti Stones anybody?) That is a fair point. You are entitled to think what you like. It just annoys me that people would call something rubbish without having heard one. |
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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2019 11:24:59 GMT
I've been in this hi-fi game 30 years man and boy so I think that entitles me to cast aspersions on miracle products that have no technical explanation in the same way that I don't need to jump off the roof of my house to know I'll break both of my legs.
That's not the same as saying 'Your system's rubbish mate' when I've never heard it.
By your logic you really can't dismiss my 'bananas on top of the speakers' tweak without trying it. But you wouldn't try it because all of your many years on planet earth tells you that it is nonsense.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 11:25:27 GMT
Trepanning used to be popular, if somewhat lethal. Folk with an 'open mind' ended up with one, literally! Yet people who called it rubbish would probably have been vilified, certainly by those who thought it a great idea. Which reminds me, I must make my quarterly vist to the barber's and get 'bled' again.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 11:27:10 GMT
It doesn't matter if what many regard as 'foo' products work or not. If for some reason you want and can afford one, you buy it. What gets me, is the apparent indignation of those who feel others should not reject such products. I'm perfectly entitled to think something is rubbish and a total take on and I'm also entitled to express that view. Having an 'open mind' is fine, just be careful not to fill that space with nonsense. (Shakti Stones anybody?) That is a fair point. You are entitled to think what you like. It just annoys me that people would call something rubbish without having heard one. Well that line 'gives with one hand and takes back with the other'. |
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 11:29:32 GMT
Well not really, I was saying you are entitled to say what you like, I just struggle 'myself' with anyone that says something is rubbish before actually trying it.
I have never tried one, they might well be a complete and total con and make no difference whatsoever, but they could be the best thing since sliced bread, but how would I know as I haven't tried one?
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 11:31:02 GMT
By your logic you really can't dismiss my 'bananas on top of the speakers' tweak without trying it. But you wouldn't try it because all of your many years on planet earth tells you that it is nonsense. You are absolutely right, I will put some bananas on my speaker and report back, I'll even take a photo for you to proove I have tried it. Then after that I can make a judgement on whether it makes a difference and not before. |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 11, 2019 11:43:06 GMT
If the manufacturer (Coherent) is not saying what is inside it then how do you know? Has anyone actually asked him?, they have a phone number on their website. Tony is very approachable so I am sure he will be more than willing to have a discussion. Simples. At AOS, Tony has said that he will not share the contents of the box. |
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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2019 11:48:29 GMT
By your logic you really can't dismiss my 'bananas on top of the speakers' tweak without trying it. But you wouldn't try it because all of your many years on planet earth tells you that it is nonsense. You are absolutely right, I will put some bananas on my speaker and report back, I'll even take a photo for you to proove I have tried it. Then after that I can make a judgement on whether it makes a difference and not before. Uber-empiricism! Trouble is that's not really practical. I could come up with a thousand everyday objects you could try atop the speakers, are you really going to give them all a go before you feel safe in saying that they don't work? I appreciate that we all draw our line in the sand at different places and that's fair enough. But there has to be a line somewhere, don't you agree? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 11:55:22 GMT
C'mon fellas, let's not descend into daftness.
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 11, 2019 12:04:43 GMT
C'mon fellas, let's not descend into daftness. We have a box filled with 'secret sauce' that costs £2.4k. Connecting cables that don't carry a signal but cost £600 each. Marketing babble instead of science. Cut and paste website descriptions. A room full of people, one of whom thinks it makes his system worth double and others who can't hear any difference. No, mate, we definitely don't want to descend into daftness...  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 12:05:54 GMT
C'mon fellas, let's not descend into daftness. We have a box filled with 'secret sauce' that costs £2.4k. Connecting cables that don't carry a signal but cost £600 each. Marketing babble instead of science. Cut and paste website descriptions. A room full of people, one of whom thinks it makes his system worth double and others who can't hear any difference. No, mate, we definitely don't want to descend into daftness... Well, when you put it like that! Lol |
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 12:07:05 GMT
Has anyone actually asked him?, they have a phone number on their website. Tony is very approachable so I am sure he will be more than willing to have a discussion. Simples. At AOS, Tony has said that he will not share the contents of the box. Fair enough, I don't blame him. |
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 12:09:38 GMT
You are absolutely right, I will put some bananas on my speaker and report back, I'll even take a photo for you to proove I have tried it. Then after that I can make a judgement on whether it makes a difference and not before. Uber-empiricism! Trouble is that's not really practical. I could come up with a thousand everyday objects you could try atop the speakers, are you really going to give them all a go before you feel safe in saying that they don't work? I appreciate that we all draw our line in the sand at different places and that's fair enough. But there has to be a line somewhere, don't you agree? Of course, cost. I can't afford one of Coherent's RTZ's, so there is little point in me trying one out. i can afford to buy a bunch of banana's, so probably would try that if enough people were saying they felt it made a difference. |
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 12:15:12 GMT
C'mon fellas, let's not descend into daftness. We have a box filled with 'secret sauce' that costs £2.4k. Connecting cables that don't carry a signal but cost £600 each. Marketing babble instead of science. Cut and paste website descriptions. A room full of people, one of whom thinks it makes his system worth double and others who can't hear any difference. No, mate, we definitely don't want to descend into daftness... Why are you so het up about the cost?, what does it matter? if I were a millionaire (I'm not) I could just buy one of those kits for a laugh and if I didn't like it give it to charity and let them sell it and keep the funds. People always seem so het up by the cost. I don't care how much it costs as long as I have enough expendable income to afford it, and am happy that it makes sufficient difference to warrant the outlay. |
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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2019 12:16:36 GMT
Yes, cost is a factor. I could afford to buy a Tony box although writing the cheque would release quite a lot of endorphins. I'm not being sceptical about it because it's beyond my means. I being sceptical because it's a good thing to be sceptical. Experience has taught me that it does not pay to take anything in life at face value.
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 12:20:08 GMT
There is nothing wrong with that at all Macca.
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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2019 12:30:17 GMT
I'm happy to spend my own time and money to travel to have a listen to this thing. That's about as open minded as I get. I know there are people who wouldn't bother to do even that so I'm not at the bottom of the scale here. |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 11, 2019 12:44:59 GMT
We have a box filled with 'secret sauce' that costs £2.4k. Connecting cables that don't carry a signal but cost £600 each. Marketing babble instead of science. Cut and paste website descriptions. A room full of people, one of whom thinks it makes his system worth double and others who can't hear any difference. No, mate, we definitely don't want to descend into daftness... Why are you so het up about the cost?, what does it matter? if I were a millionaire (I'm not) I could just buy one of those kits for a laugh and if I didn't like it give it to charity and let them sell it and keep the funds. People always seem so het up by the cost. I don't care how much it costs as long as I have enough expendable income to afford it, and am happy that it makes sufficient difference to warrant the outlay. Of course cost is a factor. I'm not getting het up about anyone paying £4k plus for a box of magic sauce and a few cables...I am 'rolling on the floor laughing my arse off', though, as 'da yoof' might say. PS. If you do think the 'Macca Nanas' make a difference...they are only £1k each. Let me know. PPS. Why would you be bovvered about me not being bovvered about you being bovvered? |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 11, 2019 12:53:05 GMT
I'm happy to spend my own time and money to travel to have a listen to this thing. That's about as open minded as I get. I know there are people who wouldn't bother to do even that so I'm not at the bottom of the scale here. That's pretty much where I'm at. I'll listen to it with an open mind. My mind is pretty much closed on the pricing and the babble around it, though... |
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 12:54:48 GMT
Why are you so het up about the cost?, what does it matter? if I were a millionaire (I'm not) I could just buy one of those kits for a laugh and if I didn't like it give it to charity and let them sell it and keep the funds. People always seem so het up by the cost. I don't care how much it costs as long as I have enough expendable income to afford it, and am happy that it makes sufficient difference to warrant the outlay. Of course cost is a factor. I'm not getting het up about anyone paying £4k plus for a box of magic sauce and a few cables...I am 'rolling on the floor laughing my arse off', though, as 'da yoof' might say. PS. If you do think the 'Macca Nanas' make a difference...they are only £1k each. Let me know. PPS. Why would you be bovvered about me not being bovvered about you being bovvered? First point - of course it is your prerogative to be rolling on the floor laughing, but the people who have bought them are clearly happy. First PS. Bargain. Although as my 17 month old drains most of my cash at the moment, I doubt I'll have available disposable income to buy them just yet. Second PS. I am not bothered. |
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Post by nonuffin on Feb 11, 2019 12:58:29 GMT
Scoff you may my lad, but I have heard Shakti Stones make an audible difference to a high end system. I'm donald ducked if I know what goes on inside of them thar blocks though. |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 11, 2019 13:00:37 GMT
Of course cost is a factor. I'm not getting het up about anyone paying £4k plus for a box of magic sauce and a few cables...I am 'rolling on the floor laughing my arse off', though, as 'da yoof' might say. PS. If you do think the 'Macca Nanas' make a difference...they are only £1k each. Let me know. PPS. Why would you be bovvered about me not being bovvered about you being bovvered? First point - of course it is your prerogative to be rolling on the floor laughing, but the people who have bought them are clearly happy. I've got no problem with them being happy. I've got no problem with you having the view that they are happy. Have you got a problem with me thinking that they have taken leave of their senses? |
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Post by macca on Feb 11, 2019 13:07:13 GMT
Scoff you may my lad, but I have heard Shakti Stones make an audible difference to a high end system. I'm donald ducked if I know what goes on inside of them thar blocks though. Sighted test or properly controlled double blind? Sorry to come over all objectivist but when we move in to the realms of 'unknown unknowns' like shakti stones that sort of testing is essential. The imagination is very powerful. You might trust your ears but the ears are a passive device whilst the brain, the bit that actually does the listening, is very active. No-one is immune to that and you can't just decide that you are being objective in your listening. |
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Post by pauld on Feb 11, 2019 13:15:35 GMT
First point - of course it is your prerogative to be rolling on the floor laughing, but the people who have bought them are clearly happy. I've got no problem with them being happy. I've got no problem with you having the view that they are happy. Have you got a problem with me thinking that they have taken leave of their senses? Yes, what right do you have to judge them? Judge the product, yes that is fine, preferably if you had tried it first Although I would call Coherent if I wanted to know more about it, but that's just me. |
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