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Post by dsjr on Feb 17, 2019 13:15:39 GMT
 Your memory of Quadral speakers may have been valid back then Dave, but the current crop is worlds away from that. I own a pair of Chromium Style 6 speakers and they are truly superb, easily seeing off speakers many times the price, in fact they thrashed a pair of floorstanders twice their size and no less than 3 times their price last week. You didn't say what speakers they trounced, but glad if they're now sorted. They weren't a very few years ago I recall (less than ten).
Would be interesting to compare them with the boring (in pictures) looking Spendor A4 (I don't believe or find that modern Spendors are slush-boxes any more since Derek Hughes left), oddball Rega RX3 which can be really good, Revel Concerta2 F35 which had a lean, 'quick' balance but not screechy and stand-mount ATC 12's which seem to have a habit of creeping up on the unsuspecting and sounding rather too good for the price? I don't look so fondly at ribbons I'm afraid or metal cones, as matching in the usually passive crossover can be a minefield depending on dispersion and the room they're in and a recipe for jangling highs or what I'd call razor-spit. I suppose my suggestions for comparison would be regarded as boring here?
Anyway, I've dug my hole so I'd better just lay in it 
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Post by pauld on Feb 17, 2019 13:34:40 GMT
Yes I have. Have you heard any other MODERN gear that he DOESN'T sell? If the sounds were as musical as you claim, then he'd not be making these add-on boxes because they wouldn't be necessary. You lived with your ES14/Exposure system for many years, yet how much and how often have you changed stuff in recent times eh? Maybe you've settled now, but you were chopping and changing for a while I recall. You haven't heard modern Linn and Naim obviously, 'cos THESE DAYS, it ain't 'broken' as the Olive and CB stuff was and even the early post 2000 cosmetic stuff is bettered now. I've not been into KJ for many years, but a trip there might be an eye opener for you as regards serious Top End purchased by the 'Oligarch' market. Hell, you can compare a Naim Statement amp with a top D'Agostino confection using an expensive DCS or Metronome digital source or the Kronos twin-opposing platter vinyl source at top LP12 money they do and which is claimed to sound amazing by any vinyl standards (I know the top LP12 and it's nothing remotely like the 80's sound they were getting) if you wanted to and that's 'proper' top end luxury. You're too close to it all Paul and have bought almost totally into your favourite dealer's portfolio. As long as you enjoy the music you play at home and can ignore your stereo, then that's fine. So many assumptions in a single post, Dave. Impressive. Firstly I don’t have a favourite dealer because I’m not 14 years old. I have just been impressed with the service I received from Coherent Systems. Secondly, the reason I had the Epos and Exposure system for so long was for two reasons, one, I liked it, and two I couldn’t afford anything better at the time. When I got my current job, I was able to look at upgrading. Modern Naim and Linn kit has changed, but has it improved?, not to me. I compared my Belles Aria directly to a 252/250DR/SC and the Naim didn't come off well given the much higher price. They are still too bright and with little soundstage or substance. The Naim Statement is overpriced nonscence and I’d love to pitch the top Belles or TAD amps against it and suspect the Naim would be highly embarrassed for so much less. Every time I’ve heard D’Agostino and DCS I have been underwhelmed and would argue equivalently price TAD kit would be preferable to me. Oh and the bit about, if Coherent Systems made musical systems, they wouldn’t need to make the accessories a stupid statement because how would you know? |
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Post by nonuffin on Feb 17, 2019 13:59:59 GMT
Your memory of Quadral speakers may have been valid back then Dave, but the current crop is worlds away from that. I own a pair of Chromium Style 6 speakers and they are truly superb, easily seeing off speakers many times the price, in fact they thrashed a pair of floorstanders twice their size and no less than 3 times their price last week. You didn't say what speakers they trounced, but glad if they're now sorted. They weren't a very few years ago I recall (less than ten).
Would be interesting to compare them with the boring (in pictures) looking Spendor A6 (I don't believe modern Spendors are slush-boxes any more since derek Hughes left), oddball Rega RX3, Revel Concerta2 F35 and stand-mount ATC 12's? I don't look so fondly at ribbons I'm afraid, as matching to cones can be a minefield depending on dispersion and the room they're in. It was a pair of Russell K 150's and 150 SE's too but by less of a margin.
I am no real lover of ribbon tweeters either if I am to be honest, but these Quadral drivers are a very easy listen and don't fatigue, yet are accurate and insightful. The ribbons are paired with titanium drivers which also have a 'reputation', but again they are hard to fault in any areas of response.
I mention from time to time I own these speakers and am always met with a huge wave of apathy which makes me smile, but if you could hear what I hear from them you lot would cast aside your prejudices.
Wouldn't swap them for any of the speakers you mention and I am very serious in that.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 17, 2019 14:06:48 GMT
I know the Russell K speakers, so thanks for that.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 17, 2019 14:18:38 GMT
Yes I have. Have you heard any other MODERN gear that he DOESN'T sell? If the sounds were as musical as you claim, then he'd not be making these add-on boxes because they wouldn't be necessary. You lived with your ES14/Exposure system for many years, yet how much and how often have you changed stuff in recent times eh? Maybe you've settled now, but you were chopping and changing for a while I recall. You haven't heard modern Linn and Naim obviously, 'cos THESE DAYS, it ain't 'broken' as the Olive and CB stuff was and even the early post 2000 cosmetic stuff is bettered now. I've not been into KJ for many years, but a trip there might be an eye opener for you as regards serious Top End purchased by the 'Oligarch' market. Hell, you can compare a Naim Statement amp with a top D'Agostino confection using an expensive DCS or Metronome digital source or the Kronos twin-opposing platter vinyl source at top LP12 money they do and which is claimed to sound amazing by any vinyl standards (I know the top LP12 and it's nothing remotely like the 80's sound they were getting) if you wanted to and that's 'proper' top end luxury. You're too close to it all Paul and have bought almost totally into your favourite dealer's portfolio. As long as you enjoy the music you play at home and can ignore your stereo, then that's fine. So many assumptions in a single post, Dave. Impressive. Firstly I don’t have a favourite dealer because I’m not 14 years old. I have just been impressed with the service I received from Coherent Systems. Secondly, the reason I had the Epos and Exposure system for so long was for two reasons, one, I liked its sound, and two I couldn’t afford anything better at the time. When I got my current job, I was able to look at seriously upgrading. Modern Naim and Linn kit has changed, but has it improved, not to me. I have compared my Belles Aria directly to a 252/250DR/SC and they Naim didn't come off well given the much higher price. They are still too bright and with little soundstage or substance. The Naim Statement is overpriced nonscence and I’d love to pitch the top Belles against it, as I suspect the Naim would be highly embarrassed for around at least £150k less. Every time I’ve heard D’Agostino and DCS I have been underwhelmed and would argue equivalently price TAD kit would be preferable to me. Oh and the bit about, if Coherent Systems made musical systems, they wouldn’t need to make the accessories a stupid statement because how would you know? I know by what you and others say. crappily matched systems, so turn up with a box of goodies to make it all better for a few hundred quid and bingo! I've been there Paul and seen it so many times, so apologies for being around for so long...
You sure you've heard a Naim Statement amp - it's really impressive as are the streaming boxes which are leaving the old legacy separates they made way behind... Doesn't matter to me as it's mad money for mad wealthy people, but to merely dismiss it? I learned my lesson there and they DO sell, whatever we think of the ott package and its ott cost.....
You're happy with what you have and the chap you bought it all from has your absolute trust now, so nothing I say or suggest is going to sit well now. That's cool. As long as you've done fair comparisons to reach your decision and can afford to spend what you've done, then ok. Your money, your music taste and your room to fill with music your way.
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Post by macca on Feb 17, 2019 14:22:48 GMT
Yes I have. Have you heard any other MODERN gear that he DOESN'T sell? If the sounds were as musical as you claim, then he'd not be making these add-on boxes because they wouldn't be necessary. You lived with your ES14/Exposure system for many years, yet how much and how often have you changed stuff in recent times eh? Maybe you've settled now, but you were chopping and changing for a while I recall. You haven't heard modern Linn and Naim obviously, 'cos THESE DAYS, it ain't 'broken' as the Olive and CB stuff was and even the early post 2000 cosmetic stuff is bettered now. I've not been into KJ for many years, but a trip there might be an eye opener for you as regards serious Top End purchased by the 'Oligarch' market. Hell, you can compare a Naim Statement amp with a top D'Agostino confection using an expensive DCS or Metronome digital source or the Kronos twin-opposing platter vinyl source at top LP12 money they do and which is claimed to sound amazing by any vinyl standards (I know the top LP12 and it's nothing remotely like the 80's sound they were getting) if you wanted to and that's 'proper' top end luxury. You're too close to it all Paul and have bought almost totally into your favourite dealer's portfolio. As long as you enjoy the music you play at home and can ignore your stereo, then that's fine. Firstly I don’t have a favourite dealer because I’m not 14 years old. Brilliant. That cracked me up. Ribbon tweeters - they are a bit of a gimmick IMO hard to match and no better than a good dome - Heil Air Motion Transformers on the other hand, worth investigating. Modern Linn - heard a full system in the summer with LP 12 and subwoofers. Not the top spec LP12. Not a bad sound at all for small speakers and subs, very cohesive. Only problem was audible distortion, clearly coming from the record deck. Dodgy stylus or poor set up at a guess. No-one else seemed to mind it including the demonstrators. You've got the cost too, not cheap. If your main priority is bang for your buck then its not even worth considering. |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 17, 2019 14:24:20 GMT
Do you chaps remember Peter Belt? At Jimmy H's place, I could hear all manner of subtle improvements with bottles of magic water in and out of his meter cupboard, having my specs 'polarised,' even drinking specially polarised water as well as all the other things Belt promoted. I'd go home, get a not significantly worse sound from my gear and not hear a damned thing with any of the tweaks Jimmy suggested.... I did green-pen many of my CD's then and at the time, I honestly thought I could tell a difference. It was when a friend started doing it to LP's I began to worry...
If grounding boxes really do help, then one day, someone will come along and give proper evidence as to WHY they work and psychology won't then perhaps play a part. In the meantime I'll stick to me BMU and ferrites, even though my BMU is an early one and hums sometimes (the transformers were improved in this respect in subsequent samples by the makers, which should benefit everyone who uses them).
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Post by pauld on Feb 17, 2019 14:34:15 GMT
So many assumptions in a single post, Dave. Impressive. Firstly I don’t have a favourite dealer because I’m not 14 years old. I have just been impressed with the service I received from Coherent Systems. Secondly, the reason I had the Epos and Exposure system for so long was for two reasons, one, I liked its sound, and two I couldn’t afford anything better at the time. When I got my current job, I was able to look at seriously upgrading. Modern Naim and Linn kit has changed, but has it improved, not to me. I have compared my Belles Aria directly to a 252/250DR/SC and they Naim didn't come off well given the much higher price. They are still too bright and with little soundstage or substance. The Naim Statement is overpriced nonscence and I’d love to pitch the top Belles against it, as I suspect the Naim would be highly embarrassed for around at least £150k less. Every time I’ve heard D’Agostino and DCS I have been underwhelmed and would argue equivalently price TAD kit would be preferable to me. Oh and the bit about, if Coherent Systems made musical systems, they wouldn’t need to make the accessories a stupid statement because how would you know? I know by what you and others say. crappily matched systems, so turn up with a box of goodies to make it all better for a few hundred quid and bingo! I've been there Paul and seen it so many times, so apologies for being around for so long...
You sure you've heard a Naim Statement amp - it's really impressive as are the streaming boxes which are leaving the old legacy separates they made way behind... Doesn't matter to me as it's mad money for mad wealthy people, but to merely dismiss it? I learned my lesson there and they DO sell, whatever we think of the ott package and its ott cost.....
You're happy with what you have and the chap you bought it all from has your absolute trust now, so nothing I say or suggest is going to sit well now. That's cool. As long as you've done fair comparisons to reach your decision and can afford to spend what you've done, then ok. Your money, your music taste and your room to fill with music your way.
More assumptions there, Dave. The matching of Exposure with my Focal’s was a mistake, what Coherent System helped with was matching them better and that’s where the Belles came in, but don’t whatever you do let you preconceptions get in the way of reality. I have heard the Naim Statement a number of times and whilst it’s quite pleasant to listen to initially, have you ever listened for more than 5-10 mins?. If you do you’ll find you want to get to the nearest exit as quickly as possible, a bit like the majority of Naim’s range. The bloke I bought it from has my absolute trust, nope, respect yes. I had been searching for a long time to find a system I would enjoy more than the Exposure/Epos but was a significant upgrade, and Coherent Systems helped me achieve that. |
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Post by nonuffin on Feb 17, 2019 14:37:38 GMT
Do you chaps remember Peter Belt? At Jimmy H's place, I could hear all manner of subtle improvements with bottles of magic water in and out of his meter cupboard, having my specs 'polarised,' even drinking specially polarised water as well as all the other things Belt promoted. I'd go home, get a not significantly worse sound from my gear and not hear a damned thing with any of the tweaks Jimmy suggested.... I did green-pen many of my CD's then and at the time, I honestly thought I could tell a difference. It was when a friend started doing it to LP's I began to worry... If grounding boxes really do help, then one day, someone will come along and give proper evidence as to WHY they work and psychology won't then perhaps play a part. In the meantime I'll stick to me BMU and ferrites, even though my BMU is an early one and hums sometimes (the transformers were improved in this respect in subsequent samples by the makers, which should benefit everyone who uses them). I remember Peter Belt very well. In a way he was right on the notion that everything and anything has SOME influence on the sound, so it was basically a "good" idea with piss poor implementation and grossly overstating the effects of his solutions . . . . . . . . . . to miniscule problems that nobody knew or even cared about. |
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 17, 2019 14:57:14 GMT
Your transformer hums because it's a transformer and the primaries are as susceptible to DC offset on the mains as any other transformer. You need a proper hi-power DC blocker before it to ensure that doesn't happen. Then it'll be able to do it's thing even better.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 17, 2019 15:55:51 GMT
Do you chaps remember Peter Belt? At Jimmy H's place, I could hear all manner of subtle improvements with bottles of magic water in and out of his meter cupboard, having my specs 'polarised,' even drinking specially polarised water as well as all the other things Belt promoted. I'd go home, get a not significantly worse sound from my gear and not hear a damned thing with any of the tweaks Jimmy suggested.... I did green-pen many of my CD's then and at the time, I honestly thought I could tell a difference. It was when a friend started doing it to LP's I began to worry... If grounding boxes really do help, then one day, someone will come along and give proper evidence as to WHY they work and psychology won't then perhaps play a part. In the meantime I'll stick to me BMU and ferrites, even though my BMU is an early one and hums sometimes (the transformers were improved in this respect in subsequent samples by the makers, which should benefit everyone who uses them). I remember Peter Belt very well. In a way he was right on the notion that everything and anything has SOME influence on the sound, so it was basically a "good" idea with piss poor implementation and grossly overstating the effects of his solutions . . . . . . . . . . to miniscule problems that nobody knew or even cared about. I heard subtle differences with some PWB treatments. I’d be very willing to accept expectation bias, but some PWB products did nothing, so I’m perplexed by that. The two things that did most were a CD stabiliser which my work due to physical properites rather than PWB claims. The second was harder to explain. Electret cream seemed to make a difference when applied to CD player displays, CDs and equipment fascias as well as cable sheaths. Were any of them worth it? No, because the differences were tiny and even if I had been able to pick them up,blind, none would’ve really been missed. I still have the PWB disc stabiliser and a few others. I can’t be arsed using them even though they appear to improve sound, |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 17, 2019 16:55:56 GMT
I know by what you and others say. crappily matched systems, so turn up with a box of goodies to make it all better for a few hundred quid and bingo! I've been there Paul and seen it so many times, so apologies for being around for so long...
You sure you've heard a Naim Statement amp - it's really impressive as are the streaming boxes which are leaving the old legacy separates they made way behind... Doesn't matter to me as it's mad money for mad wealthy people, but to merely dismiss it? I learned my lesson there and they DO sell, whatever we think of the ott package and its ott cost.....
You're happy with what you have and the chap you bought it all from has your absolute trust now, so nothing I say or suggest is going to sit well now. That's cool. As long as you've done fair comparisons to reach your decision and can afford to spend what you've done, then ok. Your money, your music taste and your room to fill with music your way.
More assumptions there, Dave. The matching of Exposure with my Focal’s was a mistake, what Coherent System helped with was matching them better and that’s where the Belles came in, but don’t whatever you do let you preconceptions get in the way of reality. I have heard the Naim Statement a number of times and whilst it’s quite pleasant to listen to initially, have you ever listened for more than 5-10 mins?. If you do you’ll find you want to get to the nearest exit as quickly as possible, a bit like the majority of Naim’s range. The bloke I bought it from has my absolute trust, nope, respect yes. I had been searching for a long time to find a system I would enjoy more than the Exposure/Epos but was a significant upgrade, and Coherent Systems helped me achieve that. Had it not occurred to you that just maybe, the Focals were a mistake for your room and nowt to do with the amp at all? I mean, you used the ES14's sans port which made them boom in every other room but yours it seems (I sold rather a lot of these and had lengthy chats with the designer of the sodding things, so do know what I'm on about with these...)? Where have you heard the Statement and with what? I've spent a couple of days on and off listening to one (while I was doing something else) and it's really not bad at all into Fenestrias in a room they 'fit' perfectly for size and both can play well quietly which surprised me, as well as at almost deafening 'monitor' levels - it's unburstable, although the price is monstrous for someone like me and I dare say a Lab Gruppen or similar would flatten it in terms of power at least. I never thought an Exposure amp was speaker fussy - it was also designed for three ohm loads such as isobariks and Saras I recall. It sounded 'warmer' than the CB era Naim 250 but that was the 250 being hard and assertive even wgen new I now realise, not necessarily any issue at all with the Exposure I reckon.
You carry on and I genuinely hope you continue to enjoy your stereo very much. I still think your dealer is having a laugh in the background as regards the grounding boxes, but no publicity is bad publicity, so I shan't offer him any more oxygen. Time will tell as it always does whether these boxes, at any price, actually make a beneficial difference and if so, why...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2019 18:59:16 GMT
Thanks Martin, What is the 'new information' that 'has come to light' and has changed your opinion? How do you view Jez's assertion that 'believing in grounding boxes is like believing in a car with square wheels'? Various testimonials and a partial explanation of how it might work offered me by an EE. Whilst I respect Jez's knowledge and experience he states that all interconnect and speaker cables always sound the same in all circumstances and IME he is wrong about that. I don't know any other EE who thinks that either. So he could be wrong about the box. I stress 'could be.' I don't know any EE who believes in cables etc (all the ones I know/have worked with rightly laugh at the very idea!) and believe that those on line etc who say they do have commercial motives for saying so or don't want to "rock the boat".. in the niche area which is hi fi it's a small world and most will know people who do sell or promote cables. Some will just not want to put off potential customers who "see the emperors new clothes"! To me the truth is infinitely more important than being popular or even selling anything... There can be circumstances where they will make a difference but for obvious and well known reasons such as excessive length of coax having excessive capacitance and rolling off the top end with a passive. With speaker cables the main thing is that they need to be thick and hence low resistance. Thin cables such as some solid core single strand cables have high resistance and hence are same as thin "bell wire" and will have a bad effect. A few badly designed amps have marginal stability and a high capacitance cable could cause instability or HF peaking and ringing. I recall an evening at Alchemist when we were all mocking the concept of cables then the business guy, Warren, said quite seriously "yeah but obviously if we can make a buck out of it we'll have Alchemist branded speaker cable made up and then tell customers it's important for the best sound".... Probably not new to many here but here's the truth douglas-self.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm |
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Post by nonuffin on Feb 17, 2019 19:14:15 GMT
Various testimonials and a partial explanation of how it might work offered me by an EE. Whilst I respect Jez's knowledge and experience he states that all interconnect and speaker cables always sound the same in all circumstances and IME he is wrong about that. I don't know any other EE who thinks that either. So he could be wrong about the box. I stress 'could be.' I don't know any EE who believes in cables etc (all the ones I know/have worked with rightly laugh at the very idea!) and believe that those on line etc who say they do have commercial motives for saying so or don't want to "rock the boat".. in the niche area which is hi fi it's a small world and most will know people who do sell or promote cables. Some will just not want to put off potential customers who "see the emperors new clothes"! To me the truth is infinitely more important than being popular or even selling anything... There can be circumstances where they will make a difference but for obvious and well known reasons such as excessive length of coax having excessive capacitance and rolling off the top end with a passive. With speaker cables the main thing is that they need to be thick and hence low resistance. Thin cables such as some solid core single strand cables have high resistance and hence are same as thin "bell wire" and will have a bad effect. A few badly designed amps have marginal stability and a high capacitance cable could cause instability or HF peaking and ringing. I recall an evening at Alchemist when we were all mocking the concept of cables then the business guy, Warren, said quite seriously "yeah but obviously if we can make a buck out of it we'll have Alchemist branded speaker cable made up and then tell customers it's important for the best sound".... Probably not new to many here but here's the truth douglas-self.com/ampins/pseudo/subjectv.htm And there was me thinking that Jez Arkless was against all forms of cable beyond bell wire.
Without even realising it, you have just indirectly promoted the idea of aftermarket cables, not by saying how "wonderful" an aftermarket upgrade cable per se really is, but advising folks to get away from cheap inadequate cables, which to me is always the starting point in the cables argument and to a degree the end of the debate too.
It is taking out an inadequate cable and replacing it with a cable that is less imperfect than the one you have just removed and hence the "better" sound as a result.
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Post by pauld on Feb 18, 2019 12:20:12 GMT
More assumptions there, Dave. The matching of Exposure with my Focal’s was a mistake, what Coherent System helped with was matching them better and that’s where the Belles came in, but don’t whatever you do let you preconceptions get in the way of reality. I have heard the Naim Statement a number of times and whilst it’s quite pleasant to listen to initially, have you ever listened for more than 5-10 mins?. If you do you’ll find you want to get to the nearest exit as quickly as possible, a bit like the majority of Naim’s range. The bloke I bought it from has my absolute trust, nope, respect yes. I had been searching for a long time to find a system I would enjoy more than the Exposure/Epos but was a significant upgrade, and Coherent Systems helped me achieve that. Had it not occurred to you that just maybe, the Focals were a mistake for your room and nowt to do with the amp at all? I mean, you used the ES14's sans port which made them boom in every other room but yours it seems (I sold rather a lot of these and had lengthy chats with the designer of the sodding things, so do know what I'm on about with these...)? Where have you heard the Statement and with what? I've spent a couple of days on and off listening to one (while I was doing something else) and it's really not bad at all into Fenestrias in a room they 'fit' perfectly for size and both can play well quietly which surprised me, as well as at almost deafening 'monitor' levels - it's unburstable, although the price is monstrous for someone like me and I dare say a Lab Gruppen or similar would flatten it in terms of power at least. I never thought an Exposure amp was speaker fussy - it was also designed for three ohm loads such as isobariks and Saras I recall. It sounded 'warmer' than the CB era Naim 250 but that was the 250 being hard and assertive even wgen new I now realise, not necessarily any issue at all with the Exposure I reckon.
You carry on and I genuinely hope you continue to enjoy your stereo very much. I still think your dealer is having a laugh in the background as regards the grounding boxes, but no publicity is bad publicity, so I shan't offer him any more oxygen. Time will tell as it always does whether these boxes, at any price, actually make a beneficial difference and if so, why...
Probably best we stop this argument here, Dave. We are never going to agree, however I might point out a couple of things. I never said that the Epos didn't boom. With a single Exposure XVIII power amp they bounced all over the road they boomed so much with the plugs out, but by adding the second Exposure XVIII in a Bi-Amp configuration it just sounded 'right' to my ears. The first time I heard the Epos ES14, I didn't like them and that was playing through a Naim system. I then was offered them from my Dad (lucky me) on the proviso that I sold my previous speakers (Linn Nexus) and gave the proceeds to my sister, so I thought I would try them on my Exposure amps. That sounded a lot better to me. The Naim over accentuated the tizz of the treble, whereas the Exposure sound was warmer and more musical, so I kept them. However, I then tried them without the plugs and preferred the sound. Whether that is Robin intended and you were best buddies or not is entirely irrelevant to me. The current Naim Classic range (strange choice of name) 250DR and 300DR amps are much warmer than the original CB or especially Olive ranges, but they are still all leading edge and nothing much more with limited sound stage. My Focal's were probably the wrong speakers for my room, certainly if you asked Focal themselves they would argue that they need a lot more room to 'breath', and I did buy them on a whim. They failed to work well with the Exposure amps, whereas they match exceptionally well with the Belles which is a lot warmer, has a much more open sound stage and a significantly tighter and more coherent sound. My dealer?, again I am not 14 years old. They are just the dealer that I used most recently and have been extremely impressed with their service (as I keep saying). Whether the grounding boxes are good or not, well if and I get a chance to hear one, I will let you know. |
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Post by macca on Feb 18, 2019 12:46:06 GMT
Focals are good speakers, very transparent and will show up the quality of the amplification hence the talk of them being bright or harsh.
Exposure has always been over-rated IMV although not heard them all. Flat earth 'exciting' sound for those who don't trust the recording engineers to deliver that (a mistake IMV).
The only way a conventional speaker can be 'wrong for the room' is if they excite the bass nodes. Solution is to get a speaker that does not go so low in the bass (or does not have an FR rise in the bass region, which it shouldn't if properly designed). But if the amp does not have sufficient control of the speaker that could also cause boom - or just a crappy bass response. Not rocket science, folks.
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Post by pauld on Feb 18, 2019 13:20:08 GMT
Exactly, with my Exposure amps, these Focal's were bouncing all over the town they boomed so badly and sounded bright and edgy, but swapping to the Belles it grabbed hold of them like no other and they sound fantastic.
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Post by macca on Feb 18, 2019 13:47:06 GMT
Only time I have heard the old Naim and Exposure stuff sounding good was with the BBC type speakers like Rogers. Okay so you are losing some insight into the recording but you get a balanced sound that is involving.
if you use modern speakers designed to be explicit it's no wonder the combo sounds bright and edgy. When those amps were designed there were very few speakers so transparent. NS1000M springs to mind and probably why they get a mixed reception from all the old school crowd who only ever heard them with the flat earth amps (because that's what everyone used back then, at least in the UK).
I'll bet those old Jap flagship amps that were dismissed as boring and bland back then would work well with a pair of Focals and show what they can really do. Although never tried it.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 18, 2019 15:53:05 GMT
Old Naim liked the better BBC derivatives like BC1's and SP1's (Rogers from the Export model onwards and the later Spendors Derek Hughes designed, tended to go too lush, clogged and boomy for me, yet the two early SP1 models were fine and still worthy I feel). Smaller stand mounted 'better' Focals from a few years ago had a double problem macca. On the one hand, the tweeter was filling-removing sparkle irrespective of program, amps or cables (I heard them in several venues when on the road) and on the other hand, the bass was underdamped, so inclined to sound off with port bongs removed, or ok but bass shy with bungs back in (the main one I played with was the grand-ish two way). I know the inverted tweeter could perform well (and I'd love to hear the KRK 9000 monitors which used them but good ones are hens teeth and still a grand or so used) and Jimmy's Impulse H2's sounded great whatever he did with the tweeter crossover (don't ask  ) The main 'Big Exposure' comparison I remember doing was in the 80's and *at the time* they sounded a bit full and warm in comparison with the Naim 250/HiCap/32.5. Knowing what I believe I know now, I think maybe the correct balance point was between the two extremes, but today, I'd lean in favour of the Farlowe era Exposure but maybe with a more modern and less 'noisy' preamp. With Naim, I was stunned how a 250 came to 3-D life when fed by a 52 and the 135's turned into something much more serious, the smaller preamps going flat in perspectives. the '82' to me was a bit more like a 52 I thought, even when not SuperCapped. By this time, you could get as good or better for rather less and of course that continues, although it's the streaming stuff that keeps them alive now I gather. SOME of those old Jap amps were very good I remember, but where I'm feeling seriously uncomfortable now is that a good spec doesn't always guarantee a great sound. Sorry for the rambles. Typing over a cuppa. |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 18, 2019 15:58:18 GMT
the bass was underdamped, so inclined to sound off with port bongs removed... A typical port bong:  |
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Post by macca on Feb 18, 2019 16:27:03 GMT
It contributes to smooth highs.
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Post by macca on Feb 18, 2019 16:28:15 GMT
I believe the Tannoy 'Jamaica Royale' used port bongs.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 18, 2019 16:42:31 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 17:40:47 GMT
I believe the Tannoy 'Jamaica Royale' used port bongs. For even inkier blackness and sillier grins. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 20:35:03 GMT
Well, there are some who hold the view that we don't know "all" there is to know with regards audio design. Take for example the designer - we're not talking fireside forum experts, Martin. Not suggesting anything personal by that, by the way - who has designed gear for decades including for some hi-end American brands and at 80+ been round the audio block a few times, who holds the the view that active preamps are preferable to passive. He can't, even after decades of experience, give a rational, technical reason why it should be. In theory, a passive is as simple as it gets, so, in theory, should sound best, all things considered. On the the other hand, an active preamp obviously has more components in the signal path, plus you have distortion, noise and power considerations to take into account. In theory then, active preamp should come-off second best. And course he's not unique in holding the view. He also has a bit of an unusual view about "music" being "conveyed" by a piece of electronic apparatus. Interesting bloke to listen to. Yes I've seen that interview, it is interesting. Isn't the active/passive thing more of a personal taste issue though? As oppose to being a technical conundrum I mean. Couldn't say. I would have thought though that decades of experience would lead him to prefer the most accurate. Bit like defeatable tone controls (sort of). You can have them switched in and faff about, until you accept that they don't really do what you want. Switching them out, you then realise is the preferred option. Well, that's what I've found. |
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Post by macca on Feb 18, 2019 22:20:31 GMT
Re tone controls I agree. Not had them on an amp since I had an old Harmon Kardon 930 in the system for a week or two a few years back, but I never felt the need to use them. I did have a twiddle to see if they worked though. As you do.
As far as his decades of experience go -I'd say for all of us the decades of experience just lead us to us what we personally like. Which was probably born of some great sounding system we heard once back when we were young and it just imprinted on us. He doesn't really talk about accuracy he just says the active has something that he feels the passive lacks.
Although you've also got your zero gain active pre like the DCB1 I've got now. Might seriously be the best of both worlds.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 22:46:28 GMT
Never heard any great sounding system when I was young... And what I value now has changed with time, and certainly wasn't available on what I listened to when I was young.
Oh, surely, one has to be more accurate than the other? And again, from his experience, I'd give him the benefit of being able to distinguish which that is. If the sound is portrayed with more realism - the "something" - won't it be more accurate, I would have thought?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2019 22:57:30 GMT
Re tone controls I agree. Not had them on an amp since I had an old Harmon Kardon 930 in the system for a week or two a few years back Nice unit. I had the 330C, 430 and 730. Wish I'd kept the 730. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2019 0:32:38 GMT
Focals are good speakers, very transparent and will show up the quality of the amplification hence the talk of them being bright or harsh. Exposure has always been over-rated IMV although not heard them all. Flat earth 'exciting' sound for those who don't trust the recording engineers to deliver that (a mistake IMV). The only way a conventional speaker can be 'wrong for the room' is if they excite the bass nodes. Solution is to get a speaker that does not go so low in the bass (or does not have an FR rise in the bass region, which it shouldn't if properly designed). But if the amp does not have sufficient control of the speaker that could also cause boom - or just a crappy bass response. Not rocket science, folks. I don't mind an old Exposure amp... much better than Naim (I'd take a Quad 606 or similar over a NAP250 all day long!) but yep still rather over rated. Always thought them just a wee bit too warm and cloying, lacking a bit of transparency. |
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Post by dsjr on Feb 19, 2019 10:08:50 GMT
Where's the conundrum with active? Good experienced designers can do the electronic crossovers so they're phase coherent and acoustically transparent and even if Naim never bothered to fully design theirs to integrate properly with the speakers (they were more general), ATC and others in the pro sector have been doing it right for decades now. Even Linn worked hard on theirs in the 90's. It's only the audiophile market that insists on passive speakers so the end user can mix and match the often expensive and good looking gear as pro monitors are almost all active now. Passive crossovers are usually intrusive and very difficult to do transparently. We are seriously so off the beam in terms of technology it's sad to say andnobody is going to even consider say, a pair of JBL LSR305mk2's for three hundred notes a pair when you can buy some dinky wooden boxes with 'BBC pedigree' for fifteen hundred the pair and a nice amp with glowing bottles for a couple or three grand, even if this combination may not be any 'better' at all apart from looks and pride in ownership. Just sayin and sorry if it doesn't vibe with you all.
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