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Post by firebottle on Feb 16, 2019 17:45:10 GMT
Calm down Ollie, it's not life and death.
The back story is that with the interest in grounding boxes I was intrigued in what effect they might have and of course how they work.
As a previous customer of Tony's he graciously invited me down to have a listen. I was far gobsmacked at the difference in Tony's system, not withstanding that it is one of the best systems I have heard.
So I put my hand in my pocket and shelled out for my own. I have had to lie down since.
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 16, 2019 17:54:22 GMT
I know that Westie does not work in the trade. I don't need to ask. I know that Dave does work in the trade. I don't need to ask. Would I seek to clarify the status of someone who is claiming massive improvements made by an item and posting those opinions frequently and across different forums? Yes, if their status was not obvious. That doesn't mean that I assume the worst, by any means. Macca has stated here, and elsewhere, that Alan is a good bloke who he respects for his knowledge and opinions. That was my starting point, and remains so. I've met Alan once and have no reason to doubt him, or Macca. I do believe in transparency. Clarifying is not doubting or assuming, quite the opposite. You are reading more into this than is there and you are coming across as excessively defensive. If something or someone elsewhere has pissed you off, don't take it out on me. If you are concerned that people think wrongly about Alan then you should welcome transparency to help you refute any such claims. Think about it - my question is helpful to you, not derogatory. Paul, what has pissed me off is exactly what i have said to you. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't want an extension of the thinking (or lack of in my opinion) demonstrated elsewhere on the internet. To suggest that because someone has improved their system and vocalised their opinion in multiple locations means they need to clarify their connection to that products manufacturer is absolute bollocks. The internet frequenters would have to spend every waking minute validating opinions rather than doing what 90% of us do, which is accept the opinion and then investigate further if we want to. Ultimately making up our own mind on the product. "You are reading more into this than is there and you are coming across as excessively defensive" Quite possibly. But as a moderator here, i will challenge anything i think needs challenging. Sorry, I find this to be irrational, bordering on paranoia and, again, unnecessarily defensive. Are you really saying that posters should not be open and transparent about their status? Here's how this conversation could have gone: Me: Does Alan have any commercial interest in the product?
You: No.
Me: Then his strong opinion about the improvements and his willingness to shell out £1.3k on it are notable, especially as he is an EE and it is not clear how these items actually work.
You: Yeah, I picked out subtle but repeatable improvements in blind listening, myself.
Me: Cool. Thanks for the feedback.The link that you posted does not work. Please check and re-post so that I can respond. |
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 16, 2019 18:03:32 GMT
I just assumed that he's just a delighted punter and that he paid full retail for it.
-edit- Whup there you go, a straight forward answer.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 18:10:18 GMT
Paul, what has pissed me off is exactly what i have said to you. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't want an extension of the thinking (or lack of in my opinion) demonstrated elsewhere on the internet. To suggest that because someone has improved their system and vocalised their opinion in multiple locations means they need to clarify their connection to that products manufacturer is absolute bollocks. The internet frequenters would have to spend every waking minute validating opinions rather than doing what 90% of us do, which is accept the opinion and then investigate further if we want to. Ultimately making up our own mind on the product. "You are reading more into this than is there and you are coming across as excessively defensive" Quite possibly. But as a moderator here, i will challenge anything i think needs challenging. Sorry, I find this to be irrational, bordering on paranoia and, again, unnecessarily defensive. Are you really saying that posters should not be open and transparent about their status? Here's how this conversation could have gone: Me: Does Alan have any commercial interest in the product?
You: No.
Me: Then his strong opinion about the improvements and his willingness to shell out £1.3k on it are notable, especially as he is an EE and it is not clear how these items actually work.
You: Yeah, I picked out subtle but repeatable improvements in blind listening, myself.
Me: Cool. Thanks for the feedback.The link that you posted does not work. Please check and re-post so that I can respond. Paul, I have quite clearly explained my opinion and made it entirely clear what i am saying. If you are genuinely interested in Alans connection to the Manufacturer, then ask directly, rather than place or suggest a doubt or concern in the motive of his posts. Which IMO you did, and why i challenged your post. This will be the final word on the subject. |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 16, 2019 18:12:21 GMT
Calm down Ollie, it's not life and death. The back story is that with the interest in grounding boxes I was intrigued in what effect they might have and of course how they work. As a previous customer of Tony's he graciously invited me down to have a listen. I was far gobsmacked at the difference in Tony's system, not withstanding that it is one of the best systems I have heard. So I put my hand in my pocket and shelled out for my own. I have had to lie down since. Cheers, Alan, You must have been well impressed with it to shell out that sort of dosh on a 'magic' box. Fair play to you. I definitely don't rule out subjective improvements, I just couldn't get myself over the line on pricing. Thanks for sharing. Warm regards, Paul |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 18:12:49 GMT
I just assumed that he's just a delighted punter and that he paid full retail for it. -edit- Whup there you go, a straight forward answer. Exactly. The way it should be. There is absolutely no reason or evidence to think anything else. If there was ANY evidence to suggest a connection to the manufacturer, i would expect to see him anyone challenge it. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 18:20:31 GMT
Calm down Ollie, it's not life and death. The back story is that with the interest in grounding boxes I was intrigued in what effect they might have and of course how they work. As a previous customer of Tony's he graciously invited me down to have a listen. I was far gobsmacked at the difference in Tony's system, not withstanding that it is one of the best systems I have heard. So I put my hand in my pocket and shelled out for my own. I have had to lie down since. Cheers, Alan, You must have been well impressed with it to shell out that sort of dosh on a 'magic' box. Fair play to you. I definitely don't rule out subjective improvements, I just couldn't get myself over the line on pricing. Thanks for sharing. Warm regards, Paul Are we to 'Insist' on all commercial disclosure from every enthusiast customer recommendation including your Controlers products ? Were you to hound a qualification out of myself as you did with Alan my responce would have been 'F**K OFF and mind your own buisness..... |
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 16, 2019 18:33:41 GMT
Good to see the heat being taken out of this debate now., I’ve been happily playing music and missed the slight escalation. FWIW I can see merit in so many folks posts and yet also see how it’s created a bit of heat too. Savvy seemed to ask a plain enough and helpful question which appeared to offer Alan an opportunity to clarify and defuse any muttering across forumland, I saw no malice or ill will in it, although that doesn’t mean there isn’t any elsewhere. Macca made a logical (you’re good at that, Martin, if I may say so) argument for his current position, which I found informative, even though I’ve moved in the opposite direction to currently view these as Snakeoil myself. Oliver rightly made the point that it’s getting tiresome how many times folk showing genuine love of the hobby and the kit are being accused of lying/shilling/backhanders etc. I’d say you need to see his response in the wider context of forum discussion, where this sort of thing is happening too often and potentially driving away enthusiasts. Alan gave a summary of his experience which struck me as measured, genuine and patient, leaving me in no doubt as to the validity of his own experience, BTW, the Sonneteer kit and Planets are sounding fucking beautiful tonight and are clearly something you all should buy immediately, so Haider and Markus can send me some more dosh for the reccys!    |
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Post by pauld on Feb 16, 2019 18:42:17 GMT
I find the fascination about cost interesting. I have been accused of Shilling for Coherent Systems before by one of the idiots that frequents HFS which made me laugh, because I have never done anything of the sort. I just happen to think that Tony provides a superb service and has helped me transform my system into an immensely pleasurable listen without costing me a fortune. Had I bought the equivalent system from Naim, Linn or one of the other brands that you pay heavily for the name, I would have had to spend probably 4 or 5 times the amount I have spent to get even close.
If I didn't have an 18 month old son who demands my attention and fleeces me of all of my cash, I would probably be interested in hearing one of the Grounding Boxes, but until I can afford one, there is little point in tempting and teasing myself by listening to one.
The concept of being ripped off makes me laugh, IMHO you cannot be ripped off. If you choose to buy something, you are choosing to buy it. If you then realise that you could have got the same for cheaper or less at a later date, it's a learning point, it doesn't mean you were ripped off originally.
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Post by macca on Feb 16, 2019 18:42:25 GMT
If I'm going to question someone's integrity then I've always found it best to have some solid evidence to bring to the table first. Just to, you know, avoid looking like a total twat.
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Post by pauld on Feb 16, 2019 18:43:24 GMT
If I'm going to question someone's integrity then I've always found it best to have some solid evidence to bring to the table first. Just to, you know, avoid looking like a total twat. LOL. |
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 16, 2019 18:44:29 GMT
Good to see the heat being taken out of this debate now., I’ve been happily playing music and missed the slight escalation. FWIW I can see merit in so many folks posts and yet also see how it’s created a bit of heat too. Savvy seemed to ask a plain enough and helpful question which appeared to offer Alan an opportunity to clarify and defuse any muttering across forumland, I saw no malice or ill will in it. Macca made a logical (you’re good at that, Martin, if I may say so) argument for his current position, which I found informative, even though I’ve moved in the opposite direction to currently view these as Snakeoil myself. Oliver rightly made the point that it’s getting tiresome how many times folk showing genuine love of the hobby and the kit are being accused of lying/shilling/backhanders etc. I’d say you need to see his response in the wider context of forum discussion, where this sort of thing is happening too often and potentially driving away enthusiasts. Alan gave a summary of his experience which struck me as measured, genuine and patient, leaving me in no doubt as to the validity of his own experience, BTW, the Sonneteer kit and Planets are sounding fucking beautiful tonight and are clearly something you all should buy immediately, so Haider and Markus can send me some more dosh for the reccys! Good post. I was genuinely trying to be helpful, and I was genuinely surprised by Oliver's reaction, but I'll leave it at that. As Alan said, it's not life and death. He definitely should have asked for a trade discount, though...  |
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Post by pauld on Feb 16, 2019 18:44:44 GMT
Good to see the heat being taken out of this debate now., I’ve been happily playing music and missed the slight escalation. FWIW I can see merit in so many folks posts and yet also see how it’s created a bit of heat too. Savvy seemed to ask a plain enough and helpful question which appeared to offer Alan an opportunity to clarify and defuse any muttering across forumland, I saw no malice or ill will in it, although that doesn’t mean there isn’t any elsewhere. Macca made a logical (you’re good at that, Martin, if I may say so) argument for his current position, which I found informative, even though I’ve moved in the opposite direction to currently view these as Snakeoil myself. Oliver rightly made the point that it’s getting tiresome how many times folk showing genuine love of the hobby and the kit are being accused of lying/shilling/backhanders etc. I’d say you need to see his response in the wider context of forum discussion, where this sort of thing is happening too often and potentially driving away enthusiasts. Alan gave a summary of his experience which struck me as measured, genuine and patient, leaving me in no doubt as to the validity of his own experience, BTW, the Sonneteer kit and Planets are sounding fucking beautiful tonight and are clearly something you all should buy immediately, so Haider and Markus can send me some more dosh for the reccys! Hear, hear. |
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,409
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 16, 2019 18:47:30 GMT
Anyone speaking up for grounding boxes has faced quite a shitstorm. It’s hard to imagine any sane person bigging them up unless they heard something they liked. Take the most insulting and nasty insinuation possible and look at it fir a mo......
You promote a Snakeoil product and you get it for less, or even nowt......Duh! If it’s Snakeoil it’s just a box full of concrete and a couple of wires that don’t carry signal. Where’s the benefit?
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Post by macca on Feb 16, 2019 18:48:18 GMT
I find the fascination about cost interesting. I have been accused of Shilling for Coherent Systems before by one of the idiots that frequents HFS which made me laugh, because I have never done anything of the sort. I just happen to think that Tony provides a superb service and has helped me transform my system into an immensely pleasurable listen without costing me a fortune. Paul you know the rules. You're only allowed to be enthusiastic about one make of gear, or maybe vintage stuff they don't make anymore. Not any other current kit especially nothing made by a British cottage manufacturer. If you say like any of that you're just shilling. And you'd have got away with it too if it wasn't for those pesky kids. What a service they provide! |
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Bigman80
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Posts: 16,409
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 16, 2019 18:53:24 GMT
The other thing that tickles me is that the shill theory proponents practice “doublethink” (look it up if you need to)
1. The people they accuse are painted as utter clowns who nobody listens to and who can’t eat a sandwich without biting off a finger.
2. At the same time, these very people are a danger because their opinions are likely to sway innocent folk. Annnnnd.....someone is paying them to do it.
Reminds me of the Simpsons episode when they paid Homer to redesign the automobile.
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Post by pauld on Feb 16, 2019 19:06:33 GMT
The problem is that a lot of the people that use the term Shill in my experience have never actually looked up what it means, it is just a word that they use because they think it makes them look big and clever.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 19:11:23 GMT
The other thing that tickles me is that the shill theory proponents practice “doublethink” (look it up if you need to) 1. The people they accuse are painted as utter clowns who nobody listens to and who can’t eat a sandwich without biting off a finger. 2. At the same time, these very people are a danger because their opinions are likely to sway innocent folk. Annnnnd.....someone is paying them to do it. Reminds me of the Simpsons episode when they paid Homer to redesign the automobile. Its an absolute load of bollocks. Circulated by those with an agenda to discredit the opinions of others. That nonsense is not welcome here. An opinion offered should be accepted as genuine until there is proof/evidence to suspect otherwise. |
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Post by macca on Feb 16, 2019 19:21:22 GMT
It's a free and easy way to try to rubbish the competition though, isn't it? The reason it doesn't happen more often is because most manufacturers have a grasp of basic business ethics and also realise the damage it can do to their reputations if/when it backfires.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 16, 2019 19:26:36 GMT
My issue is "the need" to clarify. To need to clarify suggests doubts about the motive of the opinion in the first place. To which there has been absolutely NO suggestion or evidence that would support the rise of this "need" Did you clarify the motive of opinion when Westie was lauding his Duevel planets? His soneteer gear? Dave's opinion on anything at all? He works in the trade!!! Did you clarify the motive of anyone else here for there opinion to add weight to subjectivity? I know that Westie does not work in the trade. I don't need to ask. I know that Dave does work in the trade. I don't need to ask. Would I seek to clarify the status of someone who is claiming massive improvements made by an item and posting those opinions frequently and across different forums? Yes, if their status was not obvious. That doesn't mean that I assume the worst, by any means. Macca has stated here, and elsewhere, that Alan is a good bloke who he respects for his knowledge and opinions. That was my starting point, and remains so. I've met Alan once and have no reason to doubt him, or Macca. I do believe in transparency. Clarifying is not doubting or assuming, quite the opposite. You are reading more into this than is there and you are coming across as excessively defensive. If something or someone elsewhere has pissed you off, don't take it out on me. If you are concerned that people think wrongly about Alan then you should welcome transparency to help you refute any such claims. Think about it - my question is helpful to you (and Alan), not derogatory. Yes, I am still on the fringes on the trade and hope to use this to my advantage when new speaker-time comes along, also in flogging some of my existing stuff (that which still has some merit in audiophile-land). I don't think I've ever been deceitful about who I was and where I came from - it was plastered all over PFM and AOS in past years ffs! and my current small scale assembly and occasional deck-fetttling jobs are known to you all (and I purposefully DON'T wish to rock the boat with that one).
I give 'opinions' (backed up as much as possible by stating that these are my personal experiences, or other's findings (thank DQ for that one)) and I've learned enough in recent times to state that my experiences then when the gear was new may well not apply to old gear now, thirty odd years later - was it really that long ago?
Thing is here, being where I'm at today, I kind of have red lines as regards what *I* regard as a fair price for things, knowing roughly what they cost to make, pack and ship, but then, people actually DO buy speakers costing fifty grand plus (giving the dealer an amazing profit too) and Naim have sold a good few Statement amps costing £160K+ in the UK via the very few dealers having it on show, so there's peeps around with money to burn on 'stuff.'
If you want me to shut up again Ollie, I'll crawl back under my stone again. It'll be hard for me as I love to chat (as if you never noticed), but I can do it if required.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 19:32:39 GMT
Nothing to do with grounding boxes. When are you out of plaster Oliver? Are you progressing OK?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 19:38:42 GMT
Thread drift alert ........😋
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 19:44:25 GMT
I know that Westie does not work in the trade. I don't need to ask. I know that Dave does work in the trade. I don't need to ask. Would I seek to clarify the status of someone who is claiming massive improvements made by an item and posting those opinions frequently and across different forums? Yes, if their status was not obvious. That doesn't mean that I assume the worst, by any means. Macca has stated here, and elsewhere, that Alan is a good bloke who he respects for his knowledge and opinions. That was my starting point, and remains so. I've met Alan once and have no reason to doubt him, or Macca. I do believe in transparency. Clarifying is not doubting or assuming, quite the opposite. You are reading more into this than is there and you are coming across as excessively defensive. If something or someone elsewhere has pissed you off, don't take it out on me. If you are concerned that people think wrongly about Alan then you should welcome transparency to help you refute any such claims. Think about it - my question is helpful to you (and Alan), not derogatory. Yes, I am still on the fringes on the trade and hope to use this to my advantage when new speaker-time comes along, also in flogging some of my existing stuff (that which still has some merit in audiophile-land). I don't think I've ever been deceitful about who I was and where I came from - it was plastered all over PFM and AOS in past years ffs! and my current small scale assembly and occasional deck-fetttling jobs are known to you all (and I purposefully DON'T wish to rock the boat with that one).
I give 'opinions' (backed up as much as possible by stating that these are my personal experiences, or other's findings (thank DQ for that one)) and I've learned enough in recent times to state that my experiences then when the gear was new may well not apply to old gear now, thirty odd years later - was it really that long ago?
Thing is here, being where I'm at today, I kind of have red lines as regards what *I* regard as a fair price for things, knowing roughly what they cost to make, pack and ship, but then, people actually DO buy speakers costing fifty grand plus (giving the dealer an amazing profit too) and Naim have sold a good few Statement amps costing £160K+ in the UK via the very few dealers having it on show, so there's peeps around with money to burn on 'stuff.'
If you want me to shut up again Ollie, I'll crawl back under my stone again. It'll be hard for me as I love to chat (as if you never noticed), but I can do it if required.
Dave, I've said it before! Your postings are a welcome addition to the forum. Please continue. Your motives are not under scrutiny. 😉 |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 19:46:17 GMT
Nothing to do with grounding boxes. When are you out of plaster Oliver? Are you progressing OK? Still in plaster, mate. Hopefully it's off on Wednesday but the pain suggests it might not. We will see! Just slow progress. It's depressing!!! Lol |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 19:47:30 GMT
Anyway, let's get back on track.....
The RTZ box worked.
Why?
How?
Can it be done cheaper?
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Post by macca on Feb 16, 2019 19:58:36 GMT
Assuming it does do something the entire thing is the contents.
Theories so far - it acts as some sort of reference ground - what sort of material could do that?
Or - it turns very high frequencies (RFI) into heat - what sort of material does that?
Work out what the material is you and work out what the cost is. The box and connectors are just a box and connectors and there are no other parts.
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Post by dsjr on Feb 16, 2019 20:11:41 GMT
Anyway, let's get back on track..... The RTZ box worked. Why? How? Can it be done cheaper? Course it can, and probably/possibly at a fraction of the price once you know what's inside it!
I'd add that if you can genuinely 'hear' a difference, then it MUST be measurable. test gear intelligently used is FAR more sensitive than our ears, but the operator needs to know what they're looking at and for IMO...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 20:13:33 GMT
Assuming it does do something the entire thing is the contents. Theories so far - it acts as some sort of reference ground - what sort of material could do that? Or - it turns very high frequencies (RFI) into heat - what sort of material does that? Work out what the material is you and work out what the cost is. The box and connectors are just a box and connectors and there are no other parts. Turning the RF to heat is something that has been said about this box. What material is gonna do that? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 20:14:59 GMT
Anyway, let's get back on track..... The RTZ box worked. Why? How? Can it be done cheaper? Course it can, and probably/possibly at a fraction of the price once you know what's inside it!
I'd add that if you can genuinely 'hear' a difference, then it MUST be measurable. test gear intelligently used is FAR more sensitive than our ears, but the operator needs to know what they're looking at and for IMO...
I agree Dave, maybe this is the issue. I think it would benefit any manufacturer of these things to try and get this done. Can't argue with science, as Jez would likely say. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 20:40:02 GMT
What intrigues me is that if there is an unidentifiable material or blend of in the box, why go to the trouble of filling the fastener heads so it can’t be opened?
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