Bigman80
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Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 8, 2023 16:36:34 GMT
On this roasting Friday in the Black Country, I have managed to dig out an OLD Rotel CDP with coax out, which is currently serving as an introduction to CD replay, and all that entails. You may be wondering WHY I am venturing into CD, especially when I own one of the best (IMO) Digital Transports around in the form of the Novafidelity X50D. Well it has been inspired by the rather massive CD collection given to me by my late cousin, John. I have a few hundred CDs, certainly more than i have vinyl, and they are currently sitting in the garage in a few old school filing cabinets. I want to listen to them, but listen to them in their original form...rather than rip them and listen via the X50D. The question was also raised as to whether CD could be as good or better as streaming (files from a local SSD). This captured my attention and enthusiasm as I hadn't even considered it. So, with the usual attitude....I thought I'd better get something spinning and find out whilst looking for a decent transport. The first player I have plumbed in had been somewhat of a success....even if it doesn't have the Transparency of the X50D. The Rotel is a pretty old and whilst it has COAX out, I was pretty convinced that this experiment would be over in a few tracks, but it wasn't. I'm about 25 CDs into the combo of Rotel>AQVOX> Preamp, and I'm LOVING it. You'll note the Mutec isn't in the chain. It's a deliberate decision not to include it in the chain as I don't believe it has COAX in, and therefore it's not fair to be able to use it with some spinners and not others. I may need to read the manual again, because now I've typed it, I think I'm wrong. Anyway, as it stands now, the Rotel/Aqvox combo is crushing organic tone, and has a really impressive natural delivery. It's a dense sound, one where there is more meat than grissle. It does sound a little cloudy at times, but it's still a really great sound. It loses out to the X50D in soundstage size and transparency, meaning it's easier to hear micro and macro detail via the X50D, but the X50D now doesn't sound as natural in comparison. However, instruments and vocal definitely appear from a much blacker background and hang suspended if free space, whereas the Rotel does cause the sound to cling to the speaker. Believe me, tonally, it's a difference of about the width of a gnats wing, and either digital front end would easily pass for natural...I'm just splitting hairs at the moment and trying to describe only one singular aspect of the replay. This round goes to the X50D....as it should!
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Post by gninnam on Sept 8, 2023 16:48:40 GMT
Yes, I do wonder???
I use an old Marantz 50SE and love what it does to be honest (CD's are soo cheap to buy second hand)
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Post by antonio on Sept 8, 2023 17:17:46 GMT
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Post by pete on Sept 8, 2023 18:15:45 GMT
I can supply loads of these. I get lots of donations to our Oxfam shop and selll collectible ones to a small, but keen audience. I’ve been thinking for a while I should get a 78s jukebox to pair with my Ami G80. But they are massive and I don’t think it would get that much use. Apologies for thread drift!!
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Post by bencat on Sept 8, 2023 18:21:05 GMT
I think you are right that the Mutec does not have RCA SPDIF in . However a RCA to BNC cable is not beyond a man with your talents . Also I suspect the Rotel does have TOSLINK out and Mutec does have a TOSLINK in . Now not ideal of course but you do owe it to us all to be thorough . Let us all know when you are ready and set up . Oh and don't forget to make sure the external clock is connected as well .
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Post by hifinutt on Sept 8, 2023 18:23:10 GMT
I had one of those Rotel and used it as a cd player transport . lovely old player have used many different cd players . Saving up now for a decent transport which will probably be a teac 505t or 701cd . One of the best cd players i have had is the bel canto cd2 player
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Post by alit on Sept 8, 2023 18:44:18 GMT
Used to have a Teac P30 transport which was brilliant and built like a tank. Should never have sold it..
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 8, 2023 19:11:59 GMT
Well the SP10 has 78rpm, so if anyone feels like sending some my way, I will give them a whirl!
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 8, 2023 19:13:26 GMT
I think you are right that the Mutec does not have RCA SPDIF in . However a RCA to BNC cable is not beyond a man with your talents . Also I suspect the Rotel does have TOSLINK out and Mutec does have a TOSLINK in . Now not ideal of course but you do owe it to us all to be thorough . Let us all know when you are ready and set up . Oh and don't forget to make sure the external clock is connected as well . No, and I do have a cable already made up in that configuration. Hmmmm
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Post by alit on Sept 8, 2023 19:18:17 GMT
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 8, 2023 19:56:07 GMT
I have a few of those off the Oscilloscope, I could employ them in this experiment...good shout 👍
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Post by rexton on Sept 8, 2023 20:32:09 GMT
I've a Teac VRDS 25X just collects dust. I should really use it.
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Post by mikeyb on Sept 8, 2023 20:33:56 GMT
I'm just waiting on the next wind change see what comes up next 😁
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 8, 2023 21:04:52 GMT
I'm just waiting on the next wind change see what comes up next 😁 You're no fun 🤣🤣
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 8, 2023 21:05:07 GMT
I've a Teac VRDS 25X just collects dust. I should really use it. That looks an absolute stunner!!! Wow
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Post by mikeyb on Sept 8, 2023 21:11:53 GMT
I'm just waiting on the next wind change see what comes up next 😁 You're no fun 🤣🤣 😂
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 10, 2023 22:58:35 GMT
Sunday Update!
I've not had a lot of time today, certainly not as much as was required!
I decided to reintroduce the Mutec, but in use with the CDP first. After finding a suitable phono to Coax cable, I plumbed it all in and left it playing for a couple of hours to get up to speed.
Today's CD of choice was Eva Cassidy - Songbird.
First of all...WOW.
The Mutec has pulled the soundstage off the speakers. Remember I said the Rotel CDP sounded like the music clung to the speaker?, not anymore. The sound is now in its own space and free from the speaker. Fantastic!
The downside is that the Rotels big positive is now slightly diminished. The density of tone has lightened somewhat. The Mutec obviously achieves greatness but at what appears to be the expense of some tonal tangibility. It's not enought to upset the balance into lean or forensic, but it's there, and it's worth mentioning.
I moved on to the soundtrack from "From Dusk Till Dawn" and the sound quality blew my nut. Acres of detail and resolution but thanks to the recording itself, it had a beautiful balanced sound. It sounded utterly sublime. EC's Songbird has always sounded a little lean to me, and the CDP, Aqvox and Mutec demonstrated that, but with the FDTD soundtrack..Woah... goosebumps.
Tomorrow I'll be doing the same track with the Mutec in and the X50D back in play.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 11, 2023 11:03:39 GMT
Monday Monday! The Audiolab is here and it's a MONSTER! THE WEIGHT of the thing! It's plugged in and warming up.
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Post by zleepy on Sept 11, 2023 11:22:43 GMT
Exciting times , cant wait to hear your impressions!!
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Post by misterc on Sept 11, 2023 11:36:30 GMT
I will make a couple of observations here based on my personaly experinace with the X50D, we have demonstrated this for many clients by using a dedicated CD transport Wadia 270SE (unmolested) into a dac of their choice (No Mutec) then using the exact same cables play the disc via the X50D and the CD would be an easier listen, not a great deal in it but given the cost of the Wadia £10K for the Se versions with the 40mm stainless platter then well it really ought to be. However once you had ripped the disc it was quite a leap above the Wadia no question.
Also the other demonstration we performed was to use a Tad D1000 MK II cd/player one of the most natural and fuild sounding spinners around. This had a superb dac section you could use all thes usual dac inputs with so using the AES into the back of the same dac that the player uses. In a straight one on one playing CD's the Tad was head and shoulders above, however rip that disc (even without all of the disc treatments) then played via AES into the Tad dac section it was a big leap above no question, then factor in the Mutec and again another large jump forward.
All I will suggest here is that I can repast this with pretty much any CD drive in pretty much any system. Now of coarse as you take a step up the file backladder it becomes even more obvious.
Only last week, one client who was the biggest CD/SACD user I know has now gone entirety streaming (Qoboz/Tidal) which more than matches his £40K+ CD/sacd transport, local files are another level all togther imho.
I'm not suggesting CD sound bad it doesn't as can still put a smile on your face, but its not the same at all.
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Bigman80
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Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 11, 2023 12:21:58 GMT
I will make a couple of observations here based on my personaly experinace with the X50D, we have demonstrated this for many clients by using a dedicated CD transport Wadia 270SE (unmolested) into a dac of their choice (No Mutec) then using the exact same cables play the disc via the X50D and the CD would be an easier listen, not a great deal in it but given the cost of the Wadia £10K for the Se versions with the 40mm stainless platter then well it really ought to be. However once you had ripped the disc it was quite a leap above the Wadia no question. Also the other demonstration we performed was to use a Tad D1000 MK II cd/player one of the most natural and fuild sounding spinners around. This had a superb dac section you could use all thes usual dac inputs with so using the AES into the back of the same dac that the player uses. In a straight one on one playing CD's the Tad was head and shoulders above, however rip that disc (even without all of the disc treatments) then played via AES into the Tad dac section it was a big leap above no question, then factor in the Mutec and again another large jump forward. All I will suggest here is that I can repast this with pretty much any CD drive in pretty much any system. Now of coarse as you take a step up the file backladder it becomes even more obvious. Only last week, one client who was the biggest CD/SACD user I know has now gone entirety streaming (Qoboz/Tidal) which more than matches his £40K+ CD/sacd transport, local files are another level all togther imho. I'm not suggesting CD sound bad it doesn't as can still put a smile on your face, but its not the same at all. Whether it's a leap or not, I suppose it depends on what you want to hear, Tony. The X50D is more transparent than the Audiolab, I can't argue that, because that's what i hear. The music comes from a void in the soundstage with the X50D. It still has more micro & macro detail at this point, and whilst there is no doubt in my mind that the Audiolab has closed the gap significantly vs the Rotel, it's not quite matched it....yet. I am planning to fully refurb this transport, so maybe that will help further. However, If you can live without the 10% extra transparency, the Audiolab is ahead of the X50D for tonal density and tangibility. It's also an extremely fluid presentation, which i think is more fluid than the X50D. There are people i know who would prefer the presentation of the CD VS the X50D, and vice versa. I can see how after an hours demonstration the X50D would sell itself, but I want to know a few things from this experiment, not just "which one sounds better", and one of them is already becoming noticeable ..... and it's strongly in favour of CD.
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Post by lurch on Sept 11, 2023 12:57:24 GMT
Oli when you eventually drag your butt to Chris's, let me know and in addition the the BI, I will bring my Lector CDP7TL to put against your fettled AudioLab.
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Bigman80
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AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 11, 2023 13:38:39 GMT
Oli when you eventually drag your butt to Chris's, let me know and in addition the the BI, I will bring my Lector CDP7TL to put against your fettled AudioLab. Yeah, I am more then willing to travel down at some point. The Audiolab may have bitten the dust by then though 🤣 No, I'm kidding, but the real test, or certainly "sterner" IMO Will be when macca visits with his brand spanking new TEAC. My feeling is that maybe the Audiolab and Rotel are of an age where even though they have excellent performance figures for the time, they could have lost some ground along the way VS modern circuit components....I'm thinking SNR etc. I may be barking up the wrong tree, but the X50D and the TEAC were pretty much the same price when new, so if there is a modern component influence...the TEAC CDT should show me. The Audiolab is giving me a benchmark, a starting point so to speak. I expect the 10x the price (when new) X50D to be better....and overall, it is.
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Post by misterc on Sept 11, 2023 13:40:53 GMT
Well Oli, all I can say it's not just about transparancy here, it was more about the texture depth with a more natural fluidity sound those were the bigger winners. Transparancy is an easy trait to obtain, resolving it and producing real three dimensions corrently is the TOTAL system domain not just any one particular item imho.
Last week I struggled to make a very large expensive pair of speakers sounding anything other than ultra hifi, despite them being 'world class' what ever I did or changed they really dictated the total sound, if you liked that style of presentation then win, win but it was obvious to the owners after not to long a time period, he had made a wrong decision. In that systems the speakers were the clear issue this is an example.
My point is here, prehaps you require a more textured, deeper staging and layering sound front than one you have? You do always reference back to vinyl, think of what the vinyl is giving you that really make it work for you and what the digital isn't (not the detail or slam). A process of elimination time. given the amount of dac's/ cabling and sources you have tried (and liked along the way) maybe there is another factor at work here (taking the room aside)
Over the years I have improved many of the very best CD spinners way beyond there stock performance envelope and they are demonstrably more engaing, natural and 3 dimensional way beyond the original units premise. Yet not even with these quality improvements do they obtain the level of TOTAL enegaing musically of a good file playback imho.
The audiodrab tranny is a good canditiate for dicking about with a fully isolated DOB with AES is a must, next servo drive board updates, again big improvments here, psu easy update, I fitted a further two deciated for the new clock & DOB This was a while ago I did actually fit a word clock input card and board adapater.
Happy to help with this, but imho the reason the vinyl is still preferable is another component in the system having a greater say than you think imho.
The Jays audio 3 tranny isn't bad, if you have spin discs and don't want to much faffing about then aim there if you are not going down the memory player route, which is a half way house. Then I can show you how far you can take one of these at some point.
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Bigman80
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Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 11, 2023 15:11:42 GMT
My point is here, perhaps you require a more textured, deeper staging and layering sound front than one you have? You do always reference back to vinyl, think of what the vinyl is giving you that really make it work for you and what the digital isn't (not the detail or slam). A process of elimination time. Given the amount of dac's/ cabling and sources you have tried (and liked along the way) maybe there is another factor at work here (taking the room aside) The room isn't so much of an issue these days thanks to all of the panels and positioning of them. In fact i'd go as far as to say that ive been in larger rooms that sounded far worse than mine these days. Youre the digital expert...what do you think i am missing in digital that i havent found yet?
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Post by misterc on Sept 11, 2023 15:19:18 GMT
Youre the digital expert...what do you think i am missing in digital that i havent found yet?
Shot me now, but first
You have zero issues with your vinyl set up correct, not missing anything at all, not wishing to change anything would that be fair to say?
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 11, 2023 15:20:35 GMT
Youre the digital expert...what do you think i am missing in digital that i havent found yet?
Shot me now, but first
You have zero issues with your vinyl set up correct, not missing anything at all, not wishing to change anything would that be fair to say?
No, vinyl is bang on.
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Post by pete on Sept 11, 2023 15:58:46 GMT
Shot me now, but first
You have zero issues with your vinyl set up correct, not missing anything at all, not wishing to change anything would that be fair to say?
No, vinyl is bang on. Now this is getting interesting!😁
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Post by misterc on Sept 11, 2023 16:10:19 GMT
So next question, do you feelwioth anything that you have honest listened to that any digital comes close for you?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 11, 2023 16:31:17 GMT
So next question, do you feelwioth anything that you have honest listened to that any digital comes close for you?
Probably the Holo Spring 3 KTE has been the closest. The Aqvox is there too....but not with the X50D in the system.
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