|
|
Post by misterc on Sept 11, 2023 16:32:12 GMT
Ok, so in what respect was missing?
|
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Sept 11, 2023 16:36:12 GMT
sorry have to ask this the Sring 3 really was that down to the grain free and naturalness? or depth?
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 11, 2023 19:04:42 GMT
OK, so i am going to be 100% honest here, and i am doing so probably at my own detriment when i come to move stuff on at a later date.
Digital....It's probably the future.
Trying to describe what's missing Vs vinyl is impossible. It's like trying to describe why someone becomes uber famous. There's something about them, something that you cant quite put your finger on, but they are different to the normal human. They have a little bit of something that puts them in a different light to everyone else. It's probably a multitude of things, but its the mix of those things that's the secret, and just like KFC's recipe...it's top secret, to us anyway.
Trying to pick a singularity from Digital is not going to work, because it isn't one thing.
Keeping the analogy of KFC's recipe...Digital is like having all of the right ingredients and then getting the ratio *almost* right, maybe 90% right...like the Aqvox or the Holo does. Putting vinyl on is the real deal...the authentic flavour.
It's really odd, because if you look at digital in terms of categories, it wins every one of them Vs vinyl. Background Noise, SNR, Channel Separation, Distortion, Speed accuracy, Frequency range, Linearity....you name it, digital wins that category...until I play vinyl and just listen to it. What i feel digital doesn't do as well as vinyl is density. The isn't the same mass to vocals for instance. And no, i don't mean warmth or tone, i mean mass. It's like a cardboard cut-out is singing. There isn't enough depth the the vocal to make it sound like a real person is singing. Some digital gets closer than others, see the Holo, but even that doesn't get it 100%.
The human voice is the thing we hear most of in real life, and recorded vocals sound more like they come from a living organism on vinyl than they do on Digital.
Now, here's the kicker:
Via the Audiolab, with Mutec in the chain, with the same cables i use on the X50D, The Audiolab makes humans sound more human than via the X50D.
No, the sound does not come from a black hole between the speakers like it does on the X50D. No, the soundstage is not as spacious as via the X50D. No, There isn't as much depth as the X50D. No, There is not as much transparency as the X50D.....but it sounds more organic... more analogue. Yes, a different DAC may provide me with more mass, in fact i have one here, and it DOES...but it loses two or three of the other aspects as a trade off. And that seems to be the issue with digital, nothing i have tried has done everything, and i have heard Rockna Wavelights, Chord Daves, Lampizator Golden Gates (probably the best DAC of the ones mentioned here) Lab 47s...or whatever its called, and they all lose something to provide something else.
Now, IF i could get all of those attributes from the X50D and Aqvox combo coupled with the mass i am getting from a simple 16bit CDT from the 80's and Aqvox...you'd have a digital convert on your hands.
My hope is that the TEAC comes in, OR Ian's Jay's Audio, and gets that combination right. Then i will have a path into a digital realm that rivals vinyl.
|
|
|
|
Post by gninnam on Sept 11, 2023 20:07:35 GMT
Digital....It's probably the future. Future of what? Both have pros and cons as you say so why does it have to be one or the other? They said 40 years ago that digital was the future. My ears prefer analogue to digital so it ain't the future for me. For you may be and fair enough. Love it when people generalise  Enjoy your journey and I will enjoy the music  |
|
|
|
Post by lurch on Sept 11, 2023 20:36:01 GMT
I know exactly what you mean about more human, more organic, it's the main reason why I've pulled my Bardo & 12" Enterprise from my system and put it up for sale on a couple of forums and fleabay. Since I've replaced it with an Acoustic Signature Manfred ii I have as a loaner (initially to see if I was happy with a lower end deck) Ive found myself playing vinyl again, usually 2 - 3 albums a day on the Manfred and Cadenza Blue or Manticore Mantra/P77 Mg. The Bardo/OL combo whilst pretty much up there was I found too CD like, forensic & detailed but no soul. I love what my ZenITH and BI do, it sounds superb, warm, rich, detailed etc, BUT, there is just a tiny something missing, the same with my Lector CDP7TL, and that small something is what's stopped me ditching vinyl completely in favour of an all digital system. About the only setup where digital, near as damn it, sound right is system 2A (a sub-system of system 2) where I have a Wiim Pro & LPS into a CA DacMagic Plus (with 80s Tx wallwart) then the Puresound A30 and QA 3010 or 104ab. I also have a Technics SL-PG440A (90s CDP) and my Mantra via the PS in my 80s Cambridge C50 going into the A30.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 11, 2023 21:15:40 GMT
Digital....It's probably the future. Future of what? Both have pros and cons as you say so why does it have to be one or the other? They said 40 years ago that digital was the future. My ears prefer analogue to digital so it ain't the future for me. For you may be and fair enough. Love it when people generalise Enjoy your journey and I will enjoy the music I'm not generalising....I'm literally talking about me, and what I think. "Digital....it's probably the future" is me, verbalising my feelings on the subject of where the future of my system "probably" lies.. the "probably" demonstrates my unconvinced attitude to the prospect. I thought the post quite clearly demonstrates that my preference is still vinyl? |
|
|
|
Post by gninnam on Sept 11, 2023 21:23:11 GMT
Future of what? Both have pros and cons as you say so why does it have to be one or the other? They said 40 years ago that digital was the future. My ears prefer analogue to digital so it ain't the future for me. For you may be and fair enough. Love it when people generalise Enjoy your journey and I will enjoy the music I'm not generalising....I'm literally talking about me, and what I think. "Digital....it's probably the future" is me, verbalising my feelings on the subject of where the future of my system "probably" lies.. the "probably" demonstrates my unconvinced attitude to the prospect. I thought the post quite clearly demonstrates that my preference is still vinyl? My apologies then for miss-reading your text. Carry on good sir! |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 11, 2023 21:29:38 GMT
I know exactly what you mean about more human, more organic, it's the main reason why I've pulled my Bardo & 12" Enterprise from my system and put it up for sale on a couple of forums and fleabay. Since I've replaced it with an Acoustic Signature Manfred ii I have as a loaner (initially to see if I was happy with a lower end deck) Ive found myself playing vinyl again, usually 2 - 3 albums a day on the Manfred and Cadenza Blue or Manticore Mantra/P77 Mg. The Bardo/OL combo whilst pretty much up there was I found too CD like, forensic & detailed but no soul. I love what my ZenITH and BI do, it sounds superb, warm, rich, detailed etc, BUT, there is just a tiny something missing, the same with my Lector CDP7TL, and that small something is what's stopped me ditching vinyl completely in favour of an all digital system. About the only setup where digital, near as damn it, sound right is system 2A (a sub-system of system 2) where I have a Wiim Pro & LPS into a CA DacMagic Plus (with 80s Tx wallwart) then the Puresound A30 and QA 3010 or 104ab. I also have a Technics SL-PG440A (90s CDP) and my Mantra via the PS in my 80s Cambridge C50 going into the A30. Any that's the problem isn't it...it's a small "something" Something that's almost impossible to pin down. The Aqvox and X50D have, tonight, sounded utterly brilliant, but play the same album on vinyl and it's a very different story. I tried that tonight with Ike Quebec - Blue and sentimental. I have the CD ripped onto the X50D, so listened to that...yeah, great. Then played the CD via the Audiolab CDT...again, great, then played the vinyl...bloody brilliant. The dopamine releases with vinyl. You know the kind, like when you have a cold cider/lager/whatever on a really hot day, and there's a moment where you go "aahhhhh" and it hits differently.....I haven't had that anywhere near as regularly from digital. BTW, good to hear you are playing vinyl again 👍 |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 11, 2023 21:30:15 GMT
I'm not generalising....I'm literally talking about me, and what I think. "Digital....it's probably the future" is me, verbalising my feelings on the subject of where the future of my system "probably" lies.. the "probably" demonstrates my unconvinced attitude to the prospect. I thought the post quite clearly demonstrates that my preference is still vinyl? My apologies then for miss-reading your text. Carry on good sir! Don't worry, I often think people can read my mind 🤣 |
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Sept 12, 2023 9:04:46 GMT
I was going to pick a few points out a few of you have made and reply to each, however I really don’t have time to a philosophical debate on vinyl is better etc. Would like to suggest a few things here: If you have listened to vinyl for over 30 years of so then you will prefer vinyl, its that familiarity like a comfy pair of shoes, vinyl delivers something you like embrace it and stop trying to recreate a digitalised vinyl (actually that can sound quite good!) Possibly my biggest issue with vinyl is I grew around a recording studio where 2 1/4 studer's were the norm, so vinyl for myself was a backwards step, never really went vinyl although I have a genuinely nice set up that most people would give a kidney or two. Vinyl can sound exceptional with the right assembled cast. If you wish to make digital sound like vinyl then honestly use valves and amplification which demonstrates greater texture and layering with larger diameter cone sized speakers imho Similarly, if you wish for your vinyl to sound more cleaner, lower noise and greater impact then use a Whest phono stage/Lrya carts and N-core amplification. Digital not matter how good is not going to sound like vinyl, it *may* demonstrate vinyl like qualities for sure BUT it's not vinyl and never has pretented to be despite what audio press will have you think. Digital done right transcends both CD's & Vinyl in terms of naturalness, fluidity (something digital is always getting hauled up for) articulation and the ability to recreate recorded acoustic space. They only time I have genuinely heard this on vinyl is at Munch with the massive Silbertone room with western electric horns and occasionally a glimpse of it with Tony Valantine demo's. Other than a direct cut to vinyl @air studios. Through my career I have been very fortunate to listen to some truly stunning audio reproduction both analogue and digital from all over the globe with vastly different equipment, although all we put together by very passionate people. Both were superb right at the top of their respective games, however both very different perspectives and offered insights in to differing aspects of capturing the artists performances. However, there a place where they meet and that is point 'x' it takes years of practice to achieve this and it does require some interesting use of out of the box thinking imho. The bottom line is signal to noise, the very best vinyl is 76dB even crap CD is 92/3dB ideal is 96dB this is a logarithmic scale not linear, the noise floor on digital is WAY,WAY quieter and that inky black audio rag reviewer tripe descriptions lol however vinyl is noisy (I'm not talking about click, pops static snaps etc a hard core vinyl head would have a decent cleaning solutions for this anyway) I am taking about the inherent vinyl playback trait the difference being 20dB s/n difference which is like trying to inter stella faster than light travel while using a Reliant Robin with a misfire and semi flat tires. The lower the noise floor the greater the detail and ambience should be realised, but when Cd first came out it was worse than naim it was piss thin, weedy and in all honestly bloody awful. Vinyl has a very distinctive reproduction which if you have experienced bad digital will be much more preferable and enjoyable not going to argue. Its about conformation bias and for each individual it will be different no question. I would like to ask Chris (Optical) his thoughts here now he has lived with his new valve dac for a while how he feels does, he have now closer to vinyl feel at all? The end of line boils down to here is two single items of replay imho that sperates the vinyl and digital. Real palpable three-dimensional body/texture and fatigue free ease of listenability the rest is just definable in audiophile BS terms Oli I can transform the X50, but I feel you may need to experience other streaming front ends as well. The further down the s/n route the more this will become obvious and EVERYTHING in the reply chain becomes more critical no question. The obvious left field choice would to be try a memory player, no need for fancy cd mechs at all. Ten days ago I had a visit from agent who was looking to update his vinyl front end, he has many. many pieces of vinyl some extremely rare and valuable BUT he plays them as he likes the music that much, I set up an Oracle Delphi MK VI Gen II with a Thales Simplicity II arm, Benz LPS cartridge and trinity audio phono stage, he sat for three hours just immersed in the music with a big smile on his face. He placed an order teh and there. At the end of the session, he asked if he could listen to the digital purely as an exercise in seeing how far it had progressed, he was using a quality player a Marantz CD-7 2000 era model very good sound, that analogue esk feel you are looking for Oli, so I let him have a few minutes of Elvis Kid Galahad from 1962 straight digital transfer no up sampling, followed by some Beatles/Stones/Who and Purple. Said gent was a mix of ashen faced and elated throughout the next 45 minutes, at the end he turned and said, "Ok, that was wonderful, just so immersive, BUT I am happy with my original decision'. 'Vinyl is just fine for me, that digital I can't cope with it's way to analogue!' Different stokes for different folks, although yesterday he call to check on his orders progress and I did say, I really can't listen to my system anymore, you have ruined it for me, can I borrow one of those players please' Silbertone room Munich |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 12, 2023 9:30:26 GMT
Update: Audiolab > Mutec > Aqvox
Well, well, well. This journey is taking some pretty wild twists and turns. Certainly less linear in terms of scale of improvement. Te sheer weight and build quality of the Audiolab had me convinced that this *could* be where CD starts to push the X50D. And in some ways it does.
The Audiolab is a beast. I am mega impressed with the build quality. Proper engineering here, and i now regret selling the Audiolab 8000 amplifier i had. This could have been a great start to an all British second system. Alas, the 8000 is long gone and performing well elsewhere.
So, The Audiolab CDT had a few hours put on it yesterday. CDs from Jeff Buckley, Dire Straits, Eva Cassidy, Ray Lamontagne, Miles Davis, Ike Quebec were all spun, and i must say, it was a great session. The Audiolab offers a decent step up in overall sound quality over the Rotel CDP, which i would have expected really, but it isn't massive. Tonally, its much the same. Great texture and tangibility, but the Audiolab does clean up the LF offering much better resolution and detail. The Rotel sounding a bit bloomy. Obviously, it shouldn't be the case that the transport affects the sound, but in A/B comparisons, there is a clear difference to my ears.
The imaging feels more precise, and there's a little bit more metallic shimmer to cymbals and the like. Guitar strings have more of a leading edge to them, which makes them sound more 3D and realistic. The background is blacker, but not by much i have to admit, but in a game of fine margins, it's a margin.
The takeaway from the Audiolab is that for £250 (on eBay) i have a CD transport that is extremely well made, sounds bloody brilliant and is a bit of a HiFi bargain.
Comparing it to the X50D is where is starts to lose some ground. The soundstage for instance...it seems wider and higher on the X50D, whereas the Audiolab, and Rotel, seem to be about depth, front to back, rather than width. The background of the X50D is consistently like looking into space with the music appearing in it like an apparition carved into the ether. I should point out that not every DAC will create this. It's not just the transport at work here!
The resolution is definitely higher with the X50D, There is more micro and macro detail, which gives away that recordings are in recording spaces, whereas via the Audiolab everything feels a little more intimate or personal. The best way to describe these differences is to take "Wade in the Water" by Eva Cassidy and try to explain.
On The X50D, it sounds like you are listening to the master. Like you are mixing it at the desk, KNOWING that these tracks are just tracks on a deck and you have added echo, reverb and all of the other studio effects to them. Via the Audio lab, it's as if the song is live, is real..is happening between you and Eva and no one else in the world exists at that time. The added reverb and echo are now totally convincing the mind that Eva wasn't in a recording studio and that she is in fact playing in a small venue, with those effects convincing your mind and creating the mental image.
The issue i have is that i really like to hear the mix. The mastering and the engineers work matter to me. I love being in that realm of being able to hear it, but the Audiolab is definitely hitting the dopamine release button more frequently.
At this point in proceedings, the CDT part of the experiment isn't quite getting to where i was hoping I'd be. The X50D is still leading the way for 9 out of 10 categories, so to speak. There may be a couple of reasons for this and i suspect the main one to be age. These CDT's are old, and probably quite tired. I have read multiple reports of Audiolab gear requiring a good recap as they are 40 years old by now, and i suspect a rebuild will be beneficial for the AL8000CDM. So that's what i am going to do next. I am going to strip it down, do a refurb thread and then revisit this thread once it's got some hours on and can compare it.
The other thing i am looking into is component selection of the AL8000CDM. There must be modern day drop in replacements for at least some of the parts used in the AL8000, and i am wondering if i can get the SNR and distortion figures to improve a bit. Personally, i think that is where the key to this is going to be.
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,560 
|
Post by optical on Sept 12, 2023 9:50:35 GMT
Hi all, interesting thread. First of all I will state that I'm not really chasing digital to 'sound' akin to vinyl . . . at least not any more, there is no point with the formats differing so widely both in technical specification and indeed aural reproduction. The Prima Luna DAC has certainly biased my digital front end more towards the richer more vibrant presentation that is more obvious with vinyl, however it still does not have the same analogue 'factor' that comes with vinyl (for me). It's not really a very easy comparison for me to make with a lot of my favoured material however. I've stated this a few times but most of my listening habits (both vinyl and digital) are pretty niche (being a big electronic music fan) so there is not really a yardstick of how tracks developed using mainly synthetic drum machines and other VST's/plug-ins/synths etc, should sound. Also for the majority of my vinyl collection the digital versions are simply not available, this isn't spotify/Qobuz/bandcamp or whatever, a lot of them are limited release, white labels and promos. With even the more commercial released often being vinyl only. Ripping them to files sounds okay but any vinyl rips I have done never sound anywhere near the actual vinyl, so I just don't bother usually. I have spent time meticulously setting up the ripping method, using various digital pre-amps to provide enough gain and headroom whilst recording through high quality analogue phono-stages, raising the gain to maximum peak amplitude within a 32-bit float then dithering down to 24/96 etc etc . . . it just never sounds quite as good, so I don't see the point ultimately. . . . anyway. I think there is probably more to come from the Prima Luna, it is responding well to valve rolling which should enable me to tailor the sound to suit even more. I would also say that my streamer (Cocktail Audio X30) could be upgraded (to something like an X50d, especially if there is scope for further improvement there). However most importantly I'm getting a sound from digital that is really enjoyable, certainly more so than it has been in my room before. BUT, vinyl still trumps it, quite comfortably so at some points. Just for naturalness and ease of listening along with having a much more solid driving foundation in the low end. The digital has low end and good impact but it does not have that extra something that comes from the vinyl. As others have eloquently and correctly (in my opinion) put, there is an 'x' factor to it, perhaps it's not what some people are listening for, perhaps it's only born of distortion or what is technically an 'undesirable' in hifi terms. Maybe it's the fact that a truly analogue waveform (yes I know most vinyl is cut from a digital source but the replay formula is 'analogue') is far more forgiving of any distortions/artifacts within a recording and the digital waveform cannot gloss over such 'issues' and those said issues actually become audibly pleasing when using a vinyl setup, who knows? As gninnam (and others) have said before, why does it have to be one or the other, admittedly if I could have the 'sound' of vinyl with the convenience and flexibility of digital, of course I would. So as a direct comparison (one that applies to 'normal' listening habits, ie not weird presses of electronic music), I can stick on John Martyn - Solid Air, the entire album in digital format and enjoy all of it, a couple of tracks could be portrayed as a little lean but it doesn't distract me enough to consider skipping the track. If I then switch to vinyl I just listen to the entire thing in absolute satisfaction. I have to actively think about 'if' the track/s I found a tad 'lean' using digital, were still lean . . . and they are BUT with the vinyl it doesn't matter because they just sound more 'right'. Like I say, perhaps that's the digital being more truthful (or ruthless) with the recording or maybe the parts of the track that equate to the ear hearing a 'leanness' are not as apparent on the vinyl and some noise/distortion serves to mask these parts that are actually not audibly pleasant. I'm not saying either of my setups is perfect, far from it I would suggest but I've always been able to get a more satisfactory (to me) sound with a mid-range vinyl setup than mid-range digital one. That's been the story from day one for me to be honest. |
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Sept 12, 2023 10:55:58 GMT
Hi Chris
Thanks for your thoughts, pretty much what I felt you would convey.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 12, 2023 11:01:32 GMT
A little bit on the construction of the X50D. If I have complained about components before, it's likely been due to deviations in linearity, or more likely due to the PSU....usually SMPS. I have opened up the X50D as there are no pictures of the guts online at all. What's this I see?!   Yup....a SMPS. Focus has now changed temporarily to removing that. |
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,560
|
Post by optical on Sept 12, 2023 11:05:10 GMT
Focus has now changed temporarily to removing that. Looks fairly similar to my X30 . . . Be interested to see how you go about this as ever, it's a guarantee uplift in SQ. Nice one |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 12, 2023 11:06:39 GMT
Focus has now changed temporarily to removing that. Looks fairly similar to my X30 . . . Be interested to see how you go about this as ever, it's a guarantee uplift in SQ. Nice one I don't know why I didn't do that earlier. I knew it was a SMPS, but until I overhauled the Aqvox I wasn't hearing it! That's the problem.....upgrade one thing and you end up doing two others. |
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Sept 12, 2023 12:20:35 GMT
Plenty of space for good 4/5 rails psu Oli That psu is used in many devices not just audio lol, they have been 3 versions biggest issues are the the chopper Tx's which are average at best. The first one I look at spend 2 hours in the ultrasonic bath just to loosen off the over exuberant use of the snot gun. Time for a a good LPS lots of room
Used to sell fully upgraded SMPS and support kit for them. Long time ago though.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 12, 2023 12:32:54 GMT
Plenty of space for good 4/5 rails psu Oli That psu is used in many devices not just audio lol, they have been 3 versions biggest issues are the the chopper Tx's which are average at best. The first one I look at spend 2 hours in the ultrasonic bath just to loosen off the over exuberant use of the snot gun. Time for a a good LPS lots of room
Used to sell fully upgraded SMPS and support kit for them. Long time ago though.
Any recommendations for a decent preassembled LPSU board, Tony? |
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Sept 12, 2023 13:08:13 GMT
Hi Oli I've never found a multi rail ali express special of that number, I could use or just felt it might have half a chance. I designed a new board from scratch with two custom Tx's. Once the SMPS is removed and you even out the chassis floor (important) there is decent space to make one fit. Just work out ther rail numbers and voltages, you could proberbly mount a smaller two rail on the left hand side somewhere. The first time it cost me around £1100 with a board respin, all components, mounting hardware new chassis floor and the 20 odd hours to make it happen. That is just the first stage the X50 needs other work to bring it up to how I would describe a nice level. You will also need an underboard heater for a fair few of those updates, no way round that they are smaller than 0805 SMT components. Mind you the X40/45 & pro take much longer to wade through There is a dodge you can perform that will help i make a fully screened can for the SMPS see image updatimg the smps does pay off, you have to be careful when working out the LPS the main CPU and DOB board are EXTREMELY sensitive to many things and even with grounded wrist straps anti static precautions board damage CAN occur and CA arn't great at getting back to you now the UK distributor has ceased to deal with them. The X50 pro used this particular set up
|
|
|
|
Post by brucew268 on Sept 12, 2023 15:29:04 GMT
A little bit on the construction of the X50D. I have opened up the X50D as there are no pictures of the guts online at all. Yup....a SMPS. Focus has now changed temporarily to removing that. Hi Oli I've never found a multi rail ali express special of that number, I could use or just felt it might have half a chance. I designed a new board from scratch with two custom Tx's. Once the SMPS is removed and you even out the chassis floor (important) there is decent space to make one fit. Just work out ther rail numbers and voltages, you could proberbly mount a smaller two rail on the left hand side somewhere. The first time it cost me around £1100 with a board respin, all components, mounting hardware new chassis floor and the 20 odd hours to make it happen. That is just the first stage the X50 needs other work to bring it up to how I would describe a nice level. You will also need an underboard heater for a fair few of those updates, no way round that they are smaller than 0805 SMT components. Mind you the X40/45 & pro take much longer to wade through There is a dodge you can perform that will help i make a fully screened can for the SMPS see image updatimg the smps does pay off, you have to be careful when working out the LPS the main CPU and DOB board are EXTREMELY sensitive to many things and even with grounded wrist straps anti static precautions board damage CAN occur and CA arn't great at getting back to you now the UK distributor has ceased to deal with them. Yes a good bit of space... and lots of power rails. And very sensitive boards. Em. I wonder if you use the current SMPS space and the open space for a couple of dual rails, will you have some noise problems like with a phono stage? I'll be interested to see how this progresses and what you are able to sort. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 12, 2023 15:39:54 GMT
brucew268Yes a good bit of space... and lots of power rails. And very sensitive boards. Em. I wonder if you use the current SMPS space and the open space for a couple of dual rails, will you have some noise problems like with a phono stage? I'll be interested to see how this progresses and what you are able to sort.I don't see why there would be any more or less noise than there is now. I have known a SMPS to be quieter than a LPSU. I also don't think the size of the traffo will need to be huge either and with a shield and some GOSS, it will be perfectly behaved. However, my only real concern is to whether it will affect the resale value negatively if i mod it and end up flogging it. Not that i have any plans to.
|
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Sept 12, 2023 15:57:11 GMT
brucew268 Yes a good bit of space... and lots of power rails. And very sensitive boards. Em. I wonder if you use the current SMPS space and the open space for a couple of dual rails, will you have some noise problems like with a phono stage? I'll be interested to see how this progresses and what you are able to sort.I don't see why there would be any more or less noise than there is now. I have known a SMPS to be quieter than a LPSU. I also don't think the size of the traffo will need to be huge either and with a shield and some GOSS, it will be perfectly behaved. However, my only real concern is to whether it will affect the resale value negatively if i mod it and end up flogging it. Not that i have any plans to. I regaulalry make ultra quiet psu in smps for areospace and their are very good.
My own X50D uses a smps and it has MASSIVE depth and texture and is as far away from CD sound as you can get. BUT this not the only items that has recieved attention.
A good smps rebuold/ full shield and a coiple of on board clock changes plus some dc<>dc filtration made a decent difference, less cost and more readily available for most plus resale was less of an issue that saying LPS fitted.
So far I have maxed right four X50D so I know how far you can take them and its a fair way.
However know its limit and the potential the system it was in has, I couldn't be made to reach those goals without major reclocking/slaving grounding and mains power shite removal.
So there comes a time to reset and start way up the tree and work from there.
Something I will doing again in the not to distant furture this year I have have been skimping on the system, so a few changes planned in the next couple of months.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 12, 2023 16:13:30 GMT
brucew268 Yes a good bit of space... and lots of power rails. And very sensitive boards. Em. I wonder if you use the current SMPS space and the open space for a couple of dual rails, will you have some noise problems like with a phono stage? I'll be interested to see how this progresses and what you are able to sort.I don't see why there would be any more or less noise than there is now. I have known a SMPS to be quieter than a LPSU. I also don't think the size of the traffo will need to be huge either and with a shield and some GOSS, it will be perfectly behaved. However, my only real concern is to whether it will affect the resale value negatively if i mod it and end up flogging it. Not that i have any plans to. I regularly make ultra quiet psu in smps for aerospace and their are very good. My own X50D uses a smps and it has MASSIVE depth and texture and is as far away from CD sound as you can get. BUT this not the only items that has received attention. A good smps rebuild/ full shield and a couple of on board clock changes plus some dc<>dc filtration made a decent difference, less cost and more readily available for most plus resale was less of an issue that saying LPS fitted. So far I have maxed right four X50D so I know how far you can take them and its a fair way. Yeah, and i bet that is the same cost as the X50D again? We've made really good inroads using off the shelf devices and PSU's and i am extremely confident that if i do swap the PSU, it will have the desired outcome. Anyway, as i said, i don't want this thread to become derailed so i will most likely move some of this to a new thread on the X50D, in which we can discuss the merits of XYZ. In fact, getting us back on track.... It may be wise for me to hear a high quality CDT whilst the X50D is in standard guise. Lets get that ball rolling..... |
|
|
|
Post by zleepy on Sept 12, 2023 16:17:03 GMT
Very interesting thread indeed. For me, these kinds of comparisons of gear along with some philosophical ponderings (such as digital vs analog) are why I almost daily log in to this forum. Fantastic stuff, thanks for yet another quality thread Oli! Tony, you never cease to impress with your knowledge about digital audio and PSU:s. It seems your suggestions for improvements are endless and on a completely another level to what I normally read elsewhere. |
|
|
|
Post by hifinutt on Sept 12, 2023 19:24:42 GMT
got a audiomeca kreatura transport in system at the moment and its pretty good !!! [ on loan ]
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,088
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 12, 2023 19:30:05 GMT
got a audiomeca kreatura transport in system at the moment and its pretty good !!! [ on loan ] Feel free to bring it round for a couple of hours if you want 👍 |
|
|
|
Post by bencat on Sept 13, 2023 10:19:55 GMT
I am at odds with many on here over vinyl replay and it is not about the merits of digital or vinyl . I have tinnitus in my left ear which started about four years ago . Attended an audiologist through the NHS . Now what I had found was that listening to vinyl for anything above a minute or so started to increase the levels of my tinnitus and made me feel anxious . I just thought this was invented .
Mentioned it to the Consultant Audiologist who was sat in on my first appointment and he got rather excited and asked me if I would come back and do some additional tests which he told me up front would not help my condition but could help research . I agreed an on my next visit the Consultant had brought in his own Technics SL10 mini TT along with a headphone amp . I was then connected up with heart monitor and pulse and blood pressure taken before during and after . Played me some Beatles and as I listened again the tinnitus got louder and I started to feel uncomfortable . After two minutes I had to remove the headphones . Consultant then confirmed that as the music was playing my heart was starting to beat much faster and my pulse was racing , blood pressure was getting very high and he said I was exhibiting the signs of being in fight or flight mode .
I have done tests two more times and using a digital signal none of the occurs I remain calm but switch to vinyl and the symptoms start after about a minute and half. Now I am in a sound proof booth and the Consultant was outside and i was not able to see what was playing only hear it so he was very sure that my response was genuine . So I can not listen to vinyl for any longer than a minute without causing adverse reactions so at HiFi shows if they are using it I just leave the room . Same with going to Bake Offs there is little point if the main source will be vinyl as I will just not be able to sit there .
I have been a digital music listener since CD came out and all of my music is now on HD and streamed to players around the house . What I hear today is so much better than years ago . So unlike many finding Vinyl being right and more real for me it is the opposite digital sounds closer to a real person singing and real instruments being played by real people . I have not bought any Vinyl in probably forty years , I am buying CD,s at about 10 -15 a month . But it has been my Tinnitus that has made vinyl not something I can enjoy .
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,560
|
Post by optical on Sept 13, 2023 10:38:49 GMT
I am at odds with many on here over vinyl replay and it is not about the merits of digital or vinyl . I have tinnitus in my left ear which started about four years ago . Attended an audiologist through the NHS . Now what I had found was that listening to vinyl for anything above a minute or so started to increase the levels of my tinnitus and made me feel anxious . I just thought this was invented . Mentioned it to the Consultant Audiologist who was sat in on my first appointment and he got rather excited and asked me if I would come back and do some additional tests which he told me up front would not help my condition but could help research . I agreed an on my next visit the Consultant had brought in his own Technics SL10 mini TT along with a headphone amp . I was then connected up with heart monitor and pulse and blood pressure taken before during and after . Played me some Beatles and as I listened again the tinnitus got louder and I started to feel uncomfortable . After two minutes I had to remove the headphones . Consultant then confirmed that as the music was playing my heart was starting to beat much faster and my pulse was racing , blood pressure was getting very high and he said I was exhibiting the signs of being in fight or flight mode . I have done tests two more times and using a digital signal none of the occurs I remain calm but switch to vinyl and the symptoms start after about a minute and half. Now I am in a sound proof booth and the Consultant was outside and i was not able to see what was playing only hear it so he was very sure that my response was genuine . So I can not listen to vinyl for any longer than a minute without causing adverse reactions so at HiFi shows if they are using it I just leave the room . Same with going to Bake Offs there is little point if the main source will be vinyl as I will just not be able to sit there . I have been a digital music listener since CD came out and all of my music is now on HD and streamed to players around the house . What I hear today is so much better than years ago . So unlike many finding Vinyl being right and more real for me it is the opposite digital sounds closer to a real person singing and real instruments being played by real people . I have not bought any Vinyl in probably forty years , I am buying CD,s at about 10 -15 a month . But it has been my Tinnitus that has made vinyl not something I can enjoy . Thats absolutely amazing. Would you say your heart rate/blood pressure was rising due to an emotional response or you just don't like the sound of vinyl that much? Serious question. |
|
|
|
Post by bencat on Sept 13, 2023 10:49:05 GMT
No there is something in the noise levels of vinyl according to the consultant that is hitting the right level to trigger this reaction . He is going to try and see if he can identify the band frequency that it is at but so far he has found it very difficult . He has tried just noise generations starting from her low then moving up the scale in increments but this has no effect . He thinks it maybe more complex as music is almost never just straight tones . His first theory is it may be RIAA circuit when it is boosting the bass and lowering the treble but he has not been able to replicate it . I am not due anymore tests till next year due to his pressure of work . Will report back if there is any further identification .
|
|
|
|
Post by alit on Sept 13, 2023 14:04:25 GMT
Does a vinyl rip have the same effect?
|
|
