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Post by firebottle on Apr 24, 2023 16:20:39 GMT
I would suggest it is all about the noise floor.
By that I mean residual noise in the system, not noise you can hear per se but noise pollution that affects the ultimate resolution.
The Innuos Zen only has a USB output but using a DDC on the output works wonders to improve the sound.
Whether it is the conversion and reclocking or the galvanic isolation that gives the most benefit I'm not sure, but I guess probably the latter.
This then goes via AES into the Mutec.
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Post by stevew on Apr 24, 2023 16:37:18 GMT
This is a question that may or may not be related to clocks . Hopefully Tony or someone with equal knowledge can let me know . I use the Leo Bodnor clock in my main system and have heard very clearly what it does . Like Tony and I think a few on here I dislike USB as a format for digital . So in my second system which uses an SBT as player and USB out I used an Audio GD DI-2014 that I bought off John and this improved things and has been in the system ever since . Now as i know many of us do I was trawling e-bay months ago and saw a much smaller DDC from Audio GD and as it was only £40 delivered I just pressed the button . First before I even got to plug it in I lent it to a mate . Then when he was giving it back to me and again before I managed to get it in my system it weent out on a very long loan and only really returned about two months ago . First thought were to sell it on but instead as if you have a scatter gun brain like mine you get a bad case of the What if?,s . So I decided to put the little DDC connected by Supra Excaliber USB cable after the SBT . I then took the SPDIF output from that in to the DI-2014 and then the twice worked on signal in to my system . First of all it worked but I began to think it sounded much better than just the DI-2014 on its own . After quite a few weeks of listening both to my main system and this one I have been mainly doing digital stuff like loading SD cards with music so have been listening to this system most of today . Now there is a direct connection between how it sounds now and how my main system sounds . This system using the two unit chain now sounds much more real with real texture and nuance to vocals . Like Steve was describing above artists seem to have made an effort to get out the speakers and in to my room . All instruments sound more real and there is a very definite suppleness to the sound as it insinuates in to your brain . I keep getting distracted and listening to a guitar part or the bass on tracks as it just becomes more clear and obvious of why it was played that way . Now for certain this second system does not for me sound as good as my main system but there is no input to use an external clock . However in its own way it is sounding exceedingly good and better than I ever remember it doing before . The little Audio GD unit is being LPSU powered but the DI-2014 is supposed to be used with just a mains connection and thats how it is being used . So why does the use of two units in tandem sound better then either unit on their own ? Is this again down to the quality of the clock in the DI-2014 making the timing better ? No clue myself but it does work and is staying as it is . Is that the same principle of using 2 mutecs in tandem like wot the posh people have? |
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Post by bencat on Apr 24, 2023 17:34:08 GMT
Honestly Steve I have no idea . One possibility is that the first DDC is using an LPSU so the USB signal is being cleaned up then fed to the second unit which has a better clock and this then just improved the digital information down the chain . Truth is that is why I have asked this , I can hear and am impressed with end result but just no clue as to why it is improved .
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Post by bencat on Apr 26, 2023 7:38:50 GMT
After a bit of searching I have found the big Audio GD unit is fitted with a TCXO clock . Not sure were this fits in with all the other clocks but presume it is better than the standard ones fitted to most digital units . As this is doing the final timing before entering in to the DSP unit and after it has been fed by a DDC with an LPSU supply this will bring the uplift I am hearing back to the quality of the clock . I am sure that a Mutec with better clock will sound better again but that would be very costly so this is a nice used cheap option for those without Word Clock inputs to get a better clock in the chain .
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Post by misterc on Apr 26, 2023 11:05:54 GMT
I have just completed an Audio GD DI HE 20 for a chap on one of the other forms he is based in NZ, for the life of me I can't find the results or the images of the unit what piddling me off is the unit was only sent out last week!
What I can say is it has a very good noise floor and the sound it produces is more akin to how Jerry likes his music, a different spin shall we say
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Post by bencat on Apr 26, 2023 11:18:59 GMT
Thanks Tony I have to say that using the two Audio GD Units has reduced the as you say different sound the Audio GD DI-2014 produces on it own . John did warn me when he sold it to me that it was not neutral but thankfully I liked what it does. Using the chain I have in place now has changed things and reduced the difference with the sound now much closer and similar to the Mutec with LB Clock . Not as good but certainly a very nice step up from the single unit . Given this is my second system and is used less than it was due to mu main system sounding so good now I am very happy to stop were I am and just enjoy the music that it is producing . I still feel that all of this is back to the clock and the ease it allows the other parts of the digital chain to work under .
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Post by misterc on Apr 26, 2023 17:12:48 GMT
I have had a request to demonstrate real world sample rate frequencies shown in relation to direct digital audio sample rates actually used in playback rather than just the 10Mhz reference clocks.
Just finished off a Mutec project for a gent across the pond, the outcome has shall we say pleased me somewhat is a tad of an understatement. I have been trialing a new noise (emi & rf) sniffer probe & rf amplifier out, it's been a great upgrade (measurment wise) over the usual devices I use.
Below (scope images) are of the word clock that is being output by the MC3+ via one of the four BNC terminals it is producing a WC signal matching the 48Khz digital test FFT signals from the audio analyser, first one is illustrate the main wave form while showing various important measurments relating to it note this is close as I ever seen to ideal sqaure wave form an audio device. Deviation on the frequency over 14 thousand samples was 430 micro hertz, roughly 1 in 100,000 drift.
Next is a zoomed trace of the top of the wave form in close up (more resolution here) its is again pretty darn good.
Last one of the scope acreen grabs, the eye pattern relating to that word clock output again its just as open as it gets. Now usually we would be looking at much greater frequencies and more data contianed withon the signal. However its damn fine none the less.
Finally an image of the analyser measuring the FFT return on the AES Mutec output it's the lowest I've seen at all time -208dBr.
So what does it mean, after all we as humans have zero ability ot physically hear beyond 120dB, whoooooooooo knows?
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Post by firebottle on Apr 26, 2023 18:45:41 GMT
Hells bells, I've never seen an eye pattern that open.
Good work.
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Post by bencat on Apr 26, 2023 19:04:03 GMT
Tony was that measurement after you had worked on th Mutec ? If so do you have any before measurements ? Could I also ask exactly what work you did on it to gain this excellent result ?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 26, 2023 19:31:29 GMT
Tony was that measurement after you had worked on th Mutec ? If so do you have any before measurements ? Could I also ask exactly what work you did on it to gain this excellent result ? T isn't gonna give you specifics, as that's where he makes his cheddar. |
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Post by misterc on Apr 26, 2023 19:32:17 GMT
Andrew, I can measure a stock one tomorrow no problem, food time now.
The answer to your second question is the result is due to my internal restructuring of the product and converting to DC, however it was only using a bench psu and not one of our own.
This is the Coherent upgrade to the MC3
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Post by bencat on Apr 26, 2023 23:02:08 GMT
Tony apologies I was not trying to gain secrets and just general details are fine . I fully understand that you have done lots of work on this and I am just interested in the differences that happen not the specifics .
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Post by misterc on Apr 27, 2023 11:48:21 GMT
Morning Andrew
To be able to show the results obtained in the post with the scope images has taken around five years to achieve with a significant amount of R&D time inbetween customers projects, product development & day to day running of the shop. It does involve at least five hours of time to complete the work involved on the unit including machining the replacement IEC panel and fabricating a Coherent DC power lead.
Internal restructuring involves removal of 22 compoments including SMT components, which are replaced and augmented with a further 26 pieces, plus significant RF control work. To enable SMT work correctly to avoid damage to the surrounding parts, circuit tracks and or board then the use of underboard controlled heaters and thermo couples / Kapton tape is require along with a hot air pencil/gun.
The use of analysers and sniffer probes plus various test equipment to actually 'see' what is really happening are essential as well.
Below the custom rear panel fitment on the MC3+ (usb), also one the info-red heaters we use for smt circuit board work.
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Post by bencat on Apr 27, 2023 12:27:58 GMT
Sorry but that is just porn .
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Post by bencat on Apr 28, 2023 12:43:11 GMT
I know that Tony has made the I think is a sarcastic comment that we may not be able to hear the changes he has made . But this is the first time I have seen real measurements that seem to make logical sense to improve equipment . I have never been one for measurements as I have too often heard things that the measurements say are bad sound very good indeed . I know that in many cases this is down to not doing the right sort of measurements or not having the right sort of equipment to measure accurately enough . Tony has shown some results which look to me to be very strong indicators of a step improvement in the performance of the Mutec . Will it make any sonic difference ? There is only one way to find out and that is to leap in to another rabbit hole and find out . Alan was the first one to start this clock addition rolling Tony was the one to give a link to the LB Clock . I can hear the difference and I am enjoying the sonic uplift that has been in my system . So I trust that Tony is doing something here that will make a difference and i am going to commit to getting my Mutec upgraded to similar to the above measured unit and hope that it will deliver the same or similar measured result . Only issue is this is not going to happen soon as i do not have the pennies currently to afford this . But I am going to save up and then book it in . I will once completed put it back in my system and come back to this thread and tell you if there is a musical uplift attached to these higher specification measurements than a standard Mutec . Sadly will not be able to do back to back but not that bothered about that . So unless someone esle has the cash and wants to get the upgrade now and tell us all about it I am looking at about three months then off the Mutec will fly .
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Post by stevew on Apr 28, 2023 14:46:49 GMT
I’ve missed the cost of this somewhere?
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Post by bencat on Apr 28, 2023 15:23:19 GMT
Steve no price was given I PM,d Tony and he quoted me privately . I would suggest it you want details that would be the correct way to go as most of those mfg and offering services do not give out prices on a general thread so I respect this .
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Post by stevew on Apr 28, 2023 16:04:18 GMT
Got it. No worries
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Post by misterc on Apr 29, 2023 7:32:47 GMT
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Post by bencat on Apr 29, 2023 12:51:10 GMT
Tony hope you are drinking plenty of Guiness as there are some cracking pubs even in Dublin . Enjoy your time there .
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optical
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Post by optical on May 30, 2023 17:58:27 GMT
Something I forgot to mention regarding the clock connections from the LB GPS clock they are 50Ohm, the Mutec & pretty most audio BNC inputs are 75Ohm 
So as good as it sounds now imagine what if the reflections were reduced even more, so you can use an Impedence matching device.
For a far more matched impedence pathway I would recommend one of the quality proessional adapters
I bought one of these (cheaper imported from USA!) didn't think the seller would accept my offer but was pleasantly surprised when he did. Thanks for the recommendation Tony! mistercIt sounds better than my cheapo Amazon job, this is a proper bit of kit. |
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Post by misterc on May 30, 2023 18:20:39 GMT
Hi Chris
I know it seems sometimes I do go crazy on various widgets, but I do so for a reason they work, with anything in correct measurment procedures then the right impedance matching imho is critical not just for Test & Measurment but audio also.
If you think of it in real terms Chris, its actually quite a small outlay in refernce to what the individual compoents cost in your system and the change hasn't been subtle I suspect.
Pasternak is a very well respected company around the world I have one or two of these adapters and baluns.
Thanks for the feedback Chris.
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Post by bencat on Jun 23, 2023 11:45:05 GMT
Well I decided that it was better to deliver my Mutec to Tony directly at the Cranage Show . He has been working on my Mutec today and expects it to be finished later this afternoon . I have asked if he has the time if Tony could take similar screen shots as above to show how my own Mutec fairs after his improvements . I am using an sBooster LPSU with the Mutec and feel this is good enough .
I also dropped off two BNC cables , one a hand made 50 Ohm made by Pickerings Limited and the other a cheap and cheerful 50 Ohm from a music instrument shop . I have asked Tony if he could check on these and advise which one measures better . I have already decided by ear which one I prefer and I will be fascinated to see if my ears agree with the measurements .
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 23, 2023 14:05:39 GMT
Well I decided that it was better to deliver my Mutec to Tony directly at the Cranage Show . He has been working on my Mutec today and expects it to be finished later this afternoon . I have asked if he has the time if Tony could take similar screen shots as above to show how my own Mutec fairs after his improvements . I am using an sBooster LPSU with the Mutec and feel this is good enough . I also dropped off two BNC cables , one a hand made 50 Ohm made by Pickerings Limited and the other a cheap and cheerful 50 Ohm from a music instrument shop . I have asked Tony if he could check on these and advise which one measures better . I have already decided by ear which one I prefer and I will be fascinated to see if my ears agree with the measurements . What is Tony doing? Upgrading to Coherent level of internal components etc? |
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Post by bencat on Jun 23, 2023 14:23:12 GMT
Hi Oli yes he is doing the full internal upgrade as he described in the other Mutec he did for someone in the US and showed the screen grabs . As I already had an sBooster that I bought from John i decided to skip the Coherence power supply . I dropped off the sBooster with the Mutec and I am sure Tony will let me know if there is anything that needs attention . The Coherence power supply may indeed be better but it is a stretch for me to pay out for this full upgrade as it is so will leave that as something to consider for the future .
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 23, 2023 14:30:52 GMT
Hi Oli yes he is doing the full internal upgrade as he described in the other Mutec he did for someone in the US and showed the screen grabs . As I already had an sBooster that I bought from John i decided to skip the Coherence power supply . I dropped off the sBooster with the Mutec and I am sure Tony will let me know if there is anything that needs attention . The Coherence power supply may indeed be better but it is a stretch for me to pay out for this full upgrade as it is so will leave that as something to consider for the future . What was the cost of the upgrades? |
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Post by bencat on Jun 23, 2023 14:50:57 GMT
Oli I PM,d Tony and got the cost from him . I am not sure if he would want me to be giving out the details on an open forum . I could send you a PM but it is probably better if you deal with Tony direct as I do not want to give out any details without his say so . Hope you understand .
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Post by Bigman80 on Jun 23, 2023 15:11:32 GMT
Oli I PM,d Tony and got the cost from him . I am not sure if he would want me to be giving out the details on an open forum . I could send you a PM but it is probably better if you deal with Tony direct as I do not want to give out any details without his say so . Hope you understand . No, I thought it as soon as I pressed post. All good |
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Post by misterc on Jun 23, 2023 16:03:53 GMT
I'm just testing Andrew unit as we speak, interesting results with the S-booster, even with the second in line regulator module its not as stable as the bench power supply with crock clips, interesting amplitute variantions.
How much difference this will make under listnening? that is down to the person doing the listneing so I can't comment.
Right back on the case now chaps
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Post by bencat on Jun 23, 2023 18:51:02 GMT
I liked the sound uplift the sBooster gave over the previous LPSU And used before it which was a pretty basic fit one . But I do have a Sean Jacobs DC 2 that I can switch in to use so may will give that a try when the Mutec returns . Things seem to be never as you think they will be . Tony just asking for you keep the output setting at 6V as they do say this is necessary when you use the second filter in the line .
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