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Post by firebottle on Mar 13, 2023 13:37:37 GMT
Sounds like a clock? Certainly does but other types of clock have a 'sound', or certainly influence the sound we hear in digital systems. All digital units and systems need a timing reference (clock) and its stability has an effect on the final perceived sound. I use the word stability rather than accuracy. If the clock frequency is 0.01% off is that really a problem in a domestic environment? I think not. I would suggest that stability also encompasses jitter (short term changes) and phase noise. 'Phase noise is a type of cyclostationary noise and is closely related to jitter, a particularly important type of phase noise is that produced by oscillators.' [Reference - Wikipedia] The Mutec MC3 used by many on here quotes "uses an ultra-low jitter clock with industry-leading precision and noise performance". However the Mutec has an external 'Word Clock & 1-10 MHz Input' socket so I thought I would see if performance gains could be had. I ordered a low phase noise clock board 3 weeks ago and by chance it arrived on my birthday, whoo hoo. Clock board in use:  This gives new combinations of Leds to use on the front of the Mutec:   So interesting stuff, but how does it sound I hear you ask? I have a small number of test tracks stored and immediately I played one I could hear it was different. The best single word I can think to use is more 'cohesive'. I am talking of incremental gains here so you need a well sorted system to begin with. It's a bit like showing what the dac is really capable of. A lot more listening over the weekend shows that the bass is tighter with a bit more punch, plus another small gain in space and 'air'. Swapping back to internal mode seemed a bit flat in comparison. Another step that can't be reversed once heard. |
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Post by stevew on Mar 13, 2023 13:53:25 GMT
Ooo… got a link?
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Post by misterc on Mar 13, 2023 14:11:34 GMT
Look if you guys want a decent version at a sesnible cost, then this is best solution I have found its way better than most of the After Dark stuff which I find cack anyway.
Have been using this for maybe six years in other non audio applications, a good psu and sensible place for the anntena and your away
I have well over 20 clocks and quite a few low ultra low phase noise (jitter fancy word) have a great amount of spurri on the phase plot which is imho the biggest issue for this type of clock and for many guys this is a decent option, no I have afflication with the manufacturer BUT I have been responsible for a great many of his sales lol should be on commission 
Also have around two to theree boxes of so called Ali express Trimble based clocks GPS/ Chinese sp called great ULPNC one word springs to mind BOLLOX
This one able is decent despite being only around -88dBc @ 1Hz but its good adn at £165 and ready to go is more than worth a try, cable wise start with RG59, have tested over 60 co-ax style of cables so you can have fun
Get going what are you waiting for lol
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Post by firebottle on Mar 13, 2023 15:26:50 GMT
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 13, 2023 16:03:35 GMT
Look if you guys want a decent version at a sesnible cost, then this is best solution I have found its way better than most of the After Dark stuff which I find cack anyway. Have been using this for maybe six years in other non audio applications, a good psu and sensible place for the anntena and your away I have well over 20 clocks and quite a few low ultra low phase noise (jitter fancy word) have a great amount of spurri on the phase plot which is imho the biggest issue for this type of clock and for many guys this is a decent option, no I have afflication with the manufacturer BUT I have been rersponsible for a greart many of his sales lol should be on commission Also have around two to theree boxes of so called Ali express Trimble based clocks GPS/ Chinese sp called great ULPNC one word springs to mind BOLLOX This one able is decent despite being only around -88dBc @ 1Hz but its good adn at £165 and ready to go is more than worth a try, cable wise start with RG59, have tested over 60 co-ax style of cables so you can have fun Get going what are you waiting for lol
So come on T, tell us why these things are worth buying? If the Mutec has a clock inside, why does adding another help? |
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 13, 2023 16:08:41 GMT
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Post by optical on Mar 13, 2023 16:17:49 GMT
Look if you guys want a decent version at a sesnible cost, then this is best solution I have found its way better than most of the After Dark stuff which I find cack anyway. Have been using this for maybe six years in other non audio applications, a good psu and sensible place for the anntena and your away I have well over 20 clocks and quite a few low ultra low phase noise (jitter fancy word) have a great amount of spurri on the phase plot which is imho the biggest issue for this type of clock and for many guys this is a decent option, no I have afflication with the manufacturer BUT I have been rersponsible for a greart many of his sales lol should be on commission Also have around two to theree boxes of so called Ali express Trimble based clocks GPS/ Chinese sp called great ULPNC one word springs to mind BOLLOX This one able is decent despite being only around -88dBc @ 1Hz but its good adn at £165 and ready to go is more than worth a try, cable wise start with RG59, have tested over 60 co-ax style of cables so you can have fun Get going what are you waiting for lol
So come on T, tell us why these things are worth buying? If the Mutec has a clock inside, why does adding another help? Stabilisation? (Further stabilisation from a reference point?) Literally pure guessing 🤣 |
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 13, 2023 16:25:16 GMT
So come on T, tell us why these things are worth buying? If the Mutec has a clock inside, why does adding another help? Stabilisation? (Further stabilisation from a reference point?) Literally pure guessing 🤣 Well thats the issue isn't it! I have it on good authority from two trusted sources that two Mutecs is far better than one, but i don't know why. Now we throw a clock in the mix...would that be x2.5 better? 3x....Where does it end!!! lol |
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Post by optical on Mar 13, 2023 16:25:49 GMT
Everyone should give it a go..... A small amount can go a long way. |
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Post by misterc on Mar 13, 2023 16:56:55 GMT
Not so good honestly I have reems of then stuff, other products are available by various manufacturers look else where imho
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 13, 2023 16:58:28 GMT
Not so good honestly I have reems of then stuff, other products are available by various manufacturers look else where imho
Where? |
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Post by antonio on Mar 13, 2023 17:25:20 GMT
Stabilisation? (Further stabilisation from a reference point?) Literally pure guessing 🤣 Well thats the issue isn't it! I have it on good authority from two trusted sources that two Mutecs is far better than one, but i don't know why. Now we throw a clock in the mix...would that be x2.5 better? 3x....Where does it end!!! lol When your bank account is empty. |
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Post by optical on Mar 13, 2023 17:41:38 GMT
Well thats the issue isn't it! I have it on good authority from two trusted sources that two Mutecs is far better than one, but i don't know why. Now we throw a clock in the mix...would that be x2.5 better? 3x....Where does it end!!! lol When your bank account is empty. I remember you referenced this a while back Dave. I like MP products too |
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Post by misterc on Mar 13, 2023 17:49:50 GMT
If the Mutec has a clock inside, why does adding another help? Hi Oli
OK, warning long post a head:
I use a 10 Mhz clock to slave both my Mutec's as well as the internal upgrades, DC power and special QP2. These two are slaved Via a Mutec ref 10 SE-120 you can see the unit is upper right of the image and note both clocks are slaved by a master clock. I have used master clocks for overt 16 years in audio and maybe three decades for lab equipment.
I have one of these in the lab slaving my Oscope/Real Time analyser/VNA/8.5 digit DVM/200Mhz Function generator/ Vector signal generator
Think how serial audio data protocol is generated and is transmitted:
There are three segments to the protocol (i2s), the audio data itself, (serial data can be labelled SDATA etc) the serial data clock (bit clock) and sync frame , left right clock or word select or Word Clock.
This format contians an EMBEDDED clock (NOT a sperate clock signal), which has to be extracted at the recieved end, usually br a reciever chip then a PLL (Phase lock loop filter/buffer) you can now use a synthetic clock via FPGA (Ala the main Coherent listening room door stop a chord dave). Although I have built many dacs using a synthetic clock as well.
The word select is used to indicate which are left & right channels simply by a 1 or a 0 and if two channels are used that give an absolute duty cycle of 50% though this has to match the incoming data sample rate, the key here is does this latch on the falling or rising edge of the supplied extracted clock signal. Low side usually is the left hand channel and the right on rising edge (high side).
This results in allowing the word clock to change the bit clock timing forward one clock segment before the most significant bit is sent, this gives the buffer time to clear the registars while stored the previous bit.
What the improved master ord clock does is supply a far superior non extracted clock signal which in turn improves the bit clock / serial data timing in audio it manifests itself as much improved temporal acuity & a sense of being in the recording enviroment.
The above is a very abridged version and audio dacs and ADC's will use a masterlcock signal as well as a dac input reference (at least 95% of them do!)
Also I'm sure Macca & Simon will point out that once a signal enters the PLL it can't be wrong leaving it and that having an extrenal clock is a waste of time and that citing a clock right next to the dac chips is the best method. Also you have extra cabling & power leads plus another box, connectors and transmission lines etc all make zero difference. Theory would dictate yes 100% correct.
However if this were the case no extranal clocks would ever be sold to audiophiles as the sheer number of the being used would mean that hoodwinking audio guys would be a world wide empidemic thats beem going on for many decades and that each box comes with a 35th level illusionists spell of utter suggestion and comformation bias.
Which makes myself personally a certified failmflamed/hoodwinked/hornswoggled gulible dish wash of the first order, hey then sign me up!
The Bottom line Oli is that the more aligned the serial/bit clock are the more appealing it will sound, the improved word clock allows you to sample this.
So with a DDC if this is slaved with a particularly quality 10Mhz reference then you will obatin a great sense of Coherence and temporal correctness.
This is a quote from a recent customer who has a system that any of us would happily offer a kidney for wrote back after a Mutec upgrade to his already ultra low phase noise internal dac clock of 33fS Thats femto seconds not pico seconds.
"Tony
I gave it some thought and my analogy for the change since adding in the Mutec SE-120, is the competent amateur musicians have been replaced by the professionals
Cheers"
The system wasn't DCS or any digital front end that had a straight word clock input.
Just as a side note I2s via HDMI uses LVDS (low voltage differential signals) this has a dedicated clock signal that is transmitted on a sperate rail /line it can also improved this method as well.
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Post by misterc on Mar 13, 2023 17:51:42 GMT
Not so good honestly I have reems of then stuff, other products are available by various manufacturers look else where imho
Where? Hi Oli
If I asked you for a full skimatic of the Avalon would you let me have one?
Promise its out there you just need to look in the right places, think about what you are trying to accomplish and where to find those items that will help you do this.
I've spent more $££ than Iare to think about over the years going down various rabbit holes, some of therm were quite costily
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 13, 2023 17:54:13 GMT
Well thats the issue isn't it! I have it on good authority from two trusted sources that two Mutecs is far better than one, but i don't know why. Now we throw a clock in the mix...would that be x2.5 better? 3x....Where does it end!!! lol When your bank account is empty. Like now lol |
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Post by misterc on Mar 13, 2023 17:55:14 GMT
Everyone should give it a go..... A small amount can go a long way. No it doesn't you will require multiple sheets to make the differenice you think may happen and its also very conductive and contains copper strips which when you cut it make sure you are well away from circuit boards.
Was big in the early 2000's
Alan can help you here he is an RF chap, he can explain about raditaed and imunnity RF ingress and what / how is required to combat this, oh and conducted as well.
A near field probe & reasonsable SA and you weill easily 'see' how effective OR not these rf control sheets are
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 13, 2023 17:58:14 GMT
Hi Oli If I asked you for a full skimatic of the Avalon would you let me have one? Promise its out there you just need to look in the right places, think about what you are trying to accomplish and where to find those items that will help you do this. I've spent more $££ than Iare to think about over the years going down various rabbit holes, some of therm were quite costily No, fair enough mate. I don't expect you to give all of your secrets away. I'll do some digging. |
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Post by optical on Mar 13, 2023 18:01:01 GMT
Everyone should give it a go..... A small amount can go a long way. No it doesn't you will require multiple sheets to make the differenice you think may happen and its also very conductive and contains copper strips which when you cut it make sure yo are well away from circuit boards.
You only need cover the actual chips though. People using entire sheets are adopting a very ham fisted approach and killing the sound. Cut to exact size of digital chips/clocks along the digital signal path, keep away from analogue paths and components. Made a big difference in my system. Maybe there was a lot of airborn hash being spewed from the clocks and chips, hence a little of this went a long way.... An entire sheet is probably enough for about 1000 chips 😂. |
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Post by misterc on Mar 13, 2023 18:04:26 GMT
No it doesn't you will require multiple sheets to make the differenice you think may happen and its also very conductive and contains copper strips which when you cut it make sure yo are well away from circuit boards.
You only need cover the actual chips though. People using entire sheets are adopting a very ham fisted approach and killing the sound. Cut to exact size of digital chips/clocks along the digital signal path, keep away from analogue paths and components. Made a big difference in my system. Maybe there was a lot of airborn hash being spewed from the clocks and chips, hence a little of this went a long way.... An entire sheet is probably enough for about 1000 chips 😂. Yes that is one way Chris, and its works to a degree but just the chips really ok?, I stopped using it many, mnay moons ago due to the issues with contimation and fluffiness (lol) as you have done this you know what I'm talking about, you can also damage your dac without being extremely careful just the slighest over size piece and your push down (so how did you fix it double sided tape? watch for heat issues later on) and you could end up touching some dac / IC legs and short them out.
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Post by misterc on Mar 13, 2023 18:12:48 GMT
You know, I might just make a video using ERS and three other similar products with a dac and a PC as test beds Set up a certified probe at a given distance use an Rf generator / amplifer for immunity testing as well then just swap of the products while the camera is on the screen of the RTA then you cann understand how and why I come to these reasons. Also I thought I was being helpful citing the LB clock which is British and actually works for very little money and then get hey you need more clocks, I'm not trying to sell you an extra clock here or speakers, so just spank me
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Post by optical on Mar 13, 2023 18:17:42 GMT
You only need cover the actual chips though. People using entire sheets are adopting a very ham fisted approach and killing the sound. Cut to exact size of digital chips/clocks along the digital signal path, keep away from analogue paths and components. Made a big difference in my system. Maybe there was a lot of airborn hash being spewed from the clocks and chips, hence a little of this went a long way.... An entire sheet is probably enough for about 1000 chips 😂. Yes that is one way Chris, and its works to a degree but just the chips really ok?, I stopped using it many, mnay moons ago due to the issues with contimation and fluffiness (lol) as you have done this you know what I'm talking about, you can also damage your dac with being extremely careful just the slighest over aize and your push down (so how did you fix it double sided tape?) and you could end up touching some dac legs and short them out
Yes you have to be careful but luckily my dac and inside the Mutec are pretty easy to get to and well spaced. Certainly no overhang. Using very sharp scissors you can get sharp edges with very little "fluffiness" haha. A very small amount of white/blu tac does actually hold it in place fine. I did a little rudimentary shake test and they stayed on which was good enough for me. I've done it mainly on the actual d/a conversion chips themselves and the input chips for the digital signal as well as the clocks and some of the other chips clearly in the digital path (not entirely sure what all of them are to be honest). I'm not sure if the fabric has been improved but it does seem to have a very instant affect in my system. Like I say maybe there was a lot of hash to 'clean up' so if your system is already 'cleaner' it might not make as much (or any) of an audible difference as it did in mine. Another sensible use of it is blocking rfi from the back of display LED's and screens on streamers etc. Cut it to size and mount on the rear of displays (again be careful with conductive parts). It's cheap enough to have a play anyway. The sort of thing I enjoy trying. |
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Post by misterc on Mar 13, 2023 18:32:11 GMT
Chris
I'm not saying it doesn't work to a degree, this is what I have removed from cleints equipment in the last 6 months.
I have around 50 sheets of the stuff in storage, if you wishes to try some let me know, but there is much more effective out there, ideally you design the rf control into your products at the oustset, BUT audio just deosn't seem to get this???
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Post by antonio on Mar 13, 2023 18:34:26 GMT
You know, I might just make a video using ERS and three other similar products with a dac and a PC as test beds Set up a certified probe at a given distance use an Rf generator / amplifer for immunity testing as well then just swap of the products while the camera is on the screen of the RTA then you cann understand how and why I come to these reasons. Also I thought I was being helpful citing the LB clock which is British and actually works for very little money and then get hey you need more clocks, I'm not trying to sell you an extra clock here or speakers, so just spank me
This post would have me wondering where your interests really lie Tony.  Oh, and it's not a clip I've seen before. I did like the warning 'long post ahead' on your previous post. |
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Post by stevew on Mar 13, 2023 18:36:56 GMT
You know, I might just make a video using ERS and three other similar products with a dac and a PC as test beds Set up a certified probe at a given distance use an Rf generator / amplifer for immunity testing as well then just swap of the products while the camera is on the screen of the RTA then you cann understand how and why I come to these reasons. Also I thought I was being helpful citing the LB clock which is British and actually works for very little money and then get hey you need more clocks, I'm not trying to sell you an extra clock here or speakers, so just spank me
This post would have me wondering where your interests really lie Tony. I did like the warning 'long post ahead' on your previous post. It’s ok boys.. he’s one of us. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 13, 2023 18:39:03 GMT
You know, I might just make a video using ERS and three other similar products with a dac and a PC as test beds Set up a certified probe at a given distance use an Rf generator / amplifer for immunity testing as well then just swap of the products while the camera is on the screen of the RTA then you cann understand how and why I come to these reasons. Also I thought I was being helpful citing the LB clock which is British and actually works for very little money and then get hey you need more clocks, I'm not trying to sell you an extra clock here or speakers, so just spank me
I no longer know what were talking about for some reason |
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Post by optical on Mar 13, 2023 18:40:17 GMT
Chris
I'm not saying it doesn't work to a degree, this is what I have removed from cleints equipment in the last 6 months.
I have around 50 sheets of the stuff in storage, if you wishes to try some let me know, but there is much more effective out there, ideally you design the rf control into your products at the oustset, BUT audio just deosn't seem to get this??? Well exactly, otherwise there would be no need for anyone to do or offer it would there! It's like the first time someone uses a £50 outboard DAC with their home blu ray player, is there miles better available, yes, but is it still an upgrade, absolutely. Hearing the audible improvements from this 'inferior' product proves it's benefit for me and I'm sure there is much better available, as with everything. Also from the size of those "chunks" I'd say they have been used akin to a sledgehammer for a wall tac. I used very small bits by comparison and it had a pleasing effect. The more surgical positioning approach just seems more logical to me. |
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Post by bencat on Mar 14, 2023 12:47:15 GMT
Alan thank you for setting up yet more music paranoia in my head after getting a Mutec and having it converted to LPSU . As I have said elsewhere my system now sounds the best it ever has but then you mention clocks . Tony thank you for giving us a little of your thoughts on this and also giving us a lead to a solution that is not in the £1000,s like the Mutec . Can I ask a couple of straight questions before I really consider pulling the trigger on one of the UK made ones linked . Firstly there is another mini clock on the same site which is cheaper but reading the descriptions I do not see what the difference is . Is there a difference and if so what makes one superior to the other. www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=107&products_id=301&zenid=7a986d83eac018e242d377b5cfc30398Now the more obvious question and this I suspect I already know the answer does how the clock is powered make a difference . It can be powered by USB or I presume by an off board power supply and does using an LPSU raise the performance as it does in other areas ? I am pretty sure that I will be giving this a try but would be interested in Tony,s view on how much of the uplift you get with this low priced unit compared to the far more expensive ones which I know even used I will not be able to afford . Next is the then practical issue of were in the digital chain you put the clock . In between the player/streamer and the Mutec or in between the Mutec and DAC ? My Delius has a clock input would this work in to it directly ? Sorry I know this is getting a bit close to stealing your work and current knowledge but as the saying goes if you do not ask then you dont get . |
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Post by misterc on Mar 14, 2023 13:49:50 GMT
Alan thank you for setting up yet more music paranoia in my head after getting a Mutec and having it converted to LPSU . As I have said elsewhere my system now sounds the best it ever has but then you mention clocks . Tony thank you for giving us a little of your thoughts on this and also giving us a lead to a solution that is not in the £1000,s like the Mutec . Can I ask a couple of straight questions before I really consider pulling the trigger on one of the UK made ones linked . Firstly there is another mini clock on the same site which is cheaper but reading the descriptions I do not see what the difference is . Is there a difference and if so what makes one superior to the other. www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=107&products_id=301&zenid=7a986d83eac018e242d377b5cfc30398Now the more obvious question and this I suspect I already know the answer does how the clock is powered make a difference . It can be powered by USB or I presume by an off board power supply and does using an LPSU raise the performance as it does in other areas ? I am pretty sure that I will be giving this a try but would be interested in Tony,s view on how much of the uplift you get with this low priced unit compared to the far more expensive ones which I know even used I will not be able to afford . Next is the then practical issue of were in the digital chain you put the clock . In between the player/streamer and the Mutec or in between the Mutec and DAC ? My Delius has a clock input would this work in to it directly ? Sorry I know this is getting a bit close to stealing your work and current knowledge but as the saying goes if you do not ask then you dont get . BC
Use the Bodnar clock gave the link for it is more appealing sound wise, you will need to plug it in to a laptop or similar to set up the reciever once a month, you can run it off a usb and yes a LPS works better no question.
No the output slaves the MC3+ not the Delieus that requires a clock output that follows the sample rate so use one of the Mutec's word clock distribution outputs their are four of them.
How much of a difference does it make? that depends on how well your system is set up and balanced.
I have customers who just use them straight into the back of a A26 and R26 and that is quite a significant uplift, but that is because they are designed to take a 10Mhz input.
Generally you obtian a geater sense of ease, improved speration and flow plus a better sense of being there.
I have been working with and design clocks for many, many years for different EE applications and while the ali express stuff is appealing due to cost, just scour the forums see how many are being sold on quickly.
The LB is a great place to start as it WORKS, treat it the same way you would dac or transport, its integeral to the digital replay chain IF you wish for more than run of the mill.
All clocks are not equal by any means its a question of how far you wish to travel/budget and system ability and CABLING remeber you need another BNC clock cable as well.
Everything attached to clocks has an impact but keep this context.
When you feel you really have listened to a song, then listen with a correctly impliment clock then you have to reaccess your situtaion, but that's the fun part!
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Post by bencat on Mar 14, 2023 14:11:52 GMT
Thanks Tony for clearing up my questions but not being as fully conversant with the digital chain and reading your reply has raised another question in my head . I think what you have said is that I would connect the LB clock to the Mutec and I would connect it to the clock input on the Mutec ? I would then as Alan showed change the settings on the Mutec to External clock . Now you then talk about using the Output clock from the Mutec and I should connect that to the Delius ? So doing this would add two extra SPDIF BNC cable one from LB to Mutec and one from Mutec to Delius . Hope that I have got all that correct . There is then as you say finding the best cable to connect the two but in the first instance I would just like it to work and see what that sounds like and live with that for a while before I go off and change anything . Could I also ask currently I use my Mutec with XLR AES/EBU output to my Delius I resume that this will still work fine without using an external clock connection to the Delius ?
Looked through the set up instructions and found that this unit requires a 12 Volt input and surprise I have a spare chifi 12 V LPSU sitting right next to me . I both love and hate this site as it has helped me to get things sounding much better but it keeps adding things to try and use to get even more . Glad to say this is not one of the most expensive things I have gone out on a limb with so I think I should just bite the bullet and order one and take it from there . Will also order a couple of cheap but well made BNC leads so that i am fully prepared .
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Oh, and it's not a clip I've seen before.
