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Post by bencat on Apr 12, 2023 7:45:44 GMT
I think you really need to look at what you have said . Error correction and the other processes applied to a disk will be a guess they are not and are not claimed to be 100% perfect just the best estimate they can make . So you say the a best estimate will be identical every time , well that is up to you but as with all things said by the originators it should be taken with a pinch of salt .
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Post by misterc on Apr 12, 2023 8:16:59 GMT
I stopped using CD's in 2007 personally and haven't looked back since, I'm not saying it can't sound good because it can, but it way from being what I call top draw now. With regard to Martins suggestion I should go back and look at how CD actually works, I'm quite well versed in it's mechanisms. With ANY optical media CD/DVD-A/SACD/BLu Ray you are shining a light on a spinning disc so a laser is focused to to a specific wave length in order to be reflected back towards the photodiode to enable the 'decoder' to ascertain whether it is is a '1' or '0' you CANNOT change the information on the disc. This is why there is a reed Solomon error correction code and small buffering on these devices there has to be as Martin said its not strictly real time But what you change is the way that is read, if you remove the need to go from electrical top optical and vice versa you eliminate a lot of the reading indecisive errors that you thought weren't there in the first place. Copying a a CD correctly to a dedicated drive so when playback happens it in its digital state already, so ZERO need for thr above conversion, the result a is a more natural, flowing sound with lower noise floor, again this is dependent on how good the original cd mastering and mixing is, sometime you just can't polish a turn (ask naim) Ine of the demonstrations we perform is using a quality dac a quality transport, level matching the sound and playing clients discs then ripping them on a dedicated ripping/streaming device then using the same dac and cables playback its more than obvious. Once the file has been converted to the I2s/TDME data is is then bit perfect playback by the device as there is no optical decoding and CRIC to overcome If you wish to go further then use the original CD mater file that was used to in the transfer process to manufacturer that cd its quite something. You can view this TDME data in real time from any digital transport CD etc when leaving the transport and entering the dac simultaneously can you see anything in the digital traces and decoding container coding and lengths that’s for another day. However I am 100% under no illusion that the are clear cut, repeatable and demonstratable audible differences. This quote is from a cleint yesterday who has a full DCS Vivaldi stack I been working on his streaming file playback using just the internal streaming module in the up sampler. "J was over and we listened to the system, she also agreed it sounded like nothing before, infact she said even better than the transport. It was extremely difficult to disagree"his is a from a chap who main source is CD's and has one of the best CD transports available using exactly the same cabling to and from the dac/transport/up sampler. All joking aside if I really felt optical media as we currently know was still king of the hill, I would have a Esoteric Grandiso transport in my system, I don't
Noise here is the key factor, or more precisely the lack of it via file playback and streaming
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Post by bencat on Apr 13, 2023 15:05:01 GMT
Jerrys comments got me thinking . I am not a great listener of classical music and have very few pieces that I can listen to and not get distracted . So found the recording I have of Scherherazade and stuck it on . Now unlike Jerry I do not have a pre figured idea of what the instruments should sound like but they did sound like real violins and bassoon . The sound stage was very wide and seemed to be quite deep as well with instruments set in a definite space and position . Taking the clock out in my system seemed to collapse the sound stage an you had almost like a flat plane were all the instruments were in a line but not behind robin front of each other . Solo violin also seemed less real without the LB Clock it seemed smaller and as if it had less strings is the only way I can judge this. I doubt this is adding much except even on this classical sound I am still far more convinced of a real performance with the LB Clock than without .
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Post by misterc on Apr 13, 2023 15:09:09 GMT
I feel many classical listeners are more focused on the timbre & tonal aspects of individual instruments as well as the dynamic layers between the various sections, before larger staging and snappiness this is the Classical `music lover.
The audiophiles are tend to gravitate towards more presentational aspects of the prodcuction I have found over the years.
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Post by jandl100 on Apr 13, 2023 16:21:54 GMT
I'm visiting Oli and revisiting Alan (with his Ektas slightly tweaked tonally, I believe) this Sunday, and I hope to have another listen to this clocking thing with both of them.
Fwiw (not much! - if it works for you, job done) I'll let you know how I get on.
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Post by bencat on Apr 13, 2023 22:19:43 GMT
Just been informed that the Pickerings 50 Ohm BNC cable has been despatched so should be with me either tomorrow or Monday . So this will then complete doing the best I can to get the LB Clock working as good as it can . Once this is installed will have peace of mind that the best power supply and connections are all in place . Not really expecting any improvements but then i said the same about putting the 50 Ohm fix in place as well . So will give this the weekend before saying anything if it arrives tomorrow and Wednesday if it arrives Monday.
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Post by bencat on Apr 15, 2023 13:19:44 GMT
Just to say that I have found a home for the additional 50 Ohm Through Terminator I bought which will be posted off next week . Sadly they had already ordered a 50 Ohm bnc cable or they could have had the one I will have spare next week . So if anyone needs a 50 Ohm cable drop me a PM .
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Post by stevew on Apr 15, 2023 18:29:20 GMT
Just to say that I have found a home for the additional 50 Ohm Through Terminator I bought which will be posted off next week . Sadly they had already ordered a 50 Ohm bnc cable or they could have had the one I will have spare next week . So if anyone needs a 50 Ohm cable drop me a PM . Yes… top man. Looking forward to clock arrival this next week and see what all the fuss is about. Thanks again Andrew. |
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Post by macca on Apr 16, 2023 7:16:22 GMT
It is not bit perfect but once error correction is applied the signal leaving the player is identical every time. Copying the CD to a hard drive of any type will make no difference to the output whatsoever even though error correction is no longer required. This is easily demonstrable. I thinkyou might need to refresh your memory as to how CD works. You appreciate that the disc is not read in real time? Martin, my knowledge is quite lacking when it comes to digital, so please excuse the silly questions... So essentially all CD transports, regardless of quality or cost, will produce exactly the same digital output after error correction? Genuine question. I plan to utilise my CD collectiion again one day, but it seems that I don't need a pricey transport. Or, perhaps I'm better to rip to an SSD. Digital seems a minefield 😂. This thread shows I'll need a clock! yes that is correct barring some weird edge-case situation any transport will send the same signal. Some are better at reading marked or damaged discs though. As long as you can live with slot loading something like an Audiolab 6000CDT will give perfect results for under £500. Cheap DVD or BD player will do but often the mechs on them are mechanically noisy so best to spend a few more quid. |
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Post by macca on Apr 16, 2023 7:20:28 GMT
I think you really need to look at what you have said . Error correction and the other processes applied to a disk will be a guess they are not and are not claimed to be 100% perfect just the best estimate they can make . So you say the a best estimate will be identical every time , well that is up to you but as with all things said by the originators it should be taken with a pinch of salt . error correction is not a guess, either it perfectly reconstructs the waveform or it fails and you get drop outs or skipping. There's no in-between or approximations. You seem to have read every audiophile myth about CD that there is. be aware that most of these things are made up by marketing in order to get people to spend more money, and then parroted by know-nothing magazine reviewers. Most of what you read in mags and forums, from a technical point of view, is completely wrong. |
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Post by macca on Apr 16, 2023 7:27:30 GMT
Ine of the demonstrations we perform is using a quality dac a quality transport, level matching the sound and playing clients discs then ripping them on a dedicated ripping/streaming device then using the same dac and cables playback its more than obvious. Once the file has been converted to the I2s/TDME data is is then bit perfect playback by the device as there is no optical decoding and CRIC to overcome If you wish to go further then use the original CD mater file that was used to in the transfer process to manufacturer that cd its quite something. You can view this TDME data in real time from any digital transport CD etc when leaving the transport and entering the dac simultaneously can you see anything in the digital traces and decoding container coding and lengths that’s for another day. However I am 100% under no illusion that the are clear cut, repeatable and demonstratable audible differences. This quote is from a cleint yesterday who has a full DCS Vivaldi stack I been working on his streaming file playback using just the internal streaming module in the up sampler. "J was over and we listened to the system, she also agreed it sounded like nothing before, infact she said even better than the transport. It was extremely difficult to disagree"his is a from a chap who main source is CD's and has one of the best CD transports available using exactly the same cabling to and from the dac/transport/up sampler. All joking aside if I really felt optical media as we currently know was still king of the hill, I would have a Esoteric Grandiso transport in my system, I don't
Noise here is the key factor, or more precisely the lack of it via file playback and streaming
There's nothing her except subjective impressions. . Don't your customers buy grounding boxes and £1000 cables? I'm sure they hear differences with them too. Sorry but we really can't use that as evidence that CD sounds better copied to a hard drive especially when the facts say otherwise. How can there be a benefit from reduced noise when a CD already has noise wat below audible levels? You need to back that technical claim up with some real evidence not 'My customer heard a difference'. I mean, seriously? |
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Post by macca on Apr 16, 2023 7:46:02 GMT
As an aside if we are talking subjective impressions I had Ollie around here a coupe of years back now with his own amplifiers and DAC which we hooked up to my Audiolab transport with a £40 SP/dif cable.
he was blown away by the sound quality (I was too since I pretty much never listen at the sort of levels he likes). I pointed out to him that there was no foo - no clocks, no fancy power cables, no grounding boxes, no balanced mains, no power conditioners, no isolation feet or platforms, no 'high rez recordings' and yet it was still possible to get jaw-dropping SQ from CD.
he said something about my mains supply must be good. But it isn't, it's just good speakers in a good acoustic. That's all it needs with pretty much any digital source, doesn't matter if it's a cheap Sanyo portable CD player or $20K of Esoteric. If you haven't sorted those two things then you can spend all the money in the world on 'accessories' and still be chasing your tail.
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 16, 2023 11:11:05 GMT
As an aside if we are talking subjective impressions I had Ollie around here a coupe of years back now with his own amplifiers and DAC which we hooked up to my Audiolab transport with a £40 SP/dif cable. he was blown away by the sound quality (I was too since I pretty much never listen at the sort of levels he likes). I pointed out to him that there was no foo - no clocks, no fancy power cables, no grounding boxes, no balanced mains, no power conditioners, no isolation feet or platforms, no 'high rez recordings' and yet it was still possible to get jaw-dropping SQ from CD. he said something about my mains supply must be good. But it isn't, it's just good speakers in a good acoustic. That's all it needs with pretty much any digital source, doesn't matter if it's a cheap Sanyo portable CD player or $20K of Esoteric. If you haven't sorted those two things then you can spend all the money in the world on 'accessories' and still be chasing your tail. We had a great session that day, and yes...we got a really good sound out of your system. But that doesn't mean that it can't be improved. One thing HiFi has repeatedly demonstrated to me (and at times a humbling is just what you need) is that there is always something better, or someone with a system that has higher performance levels. Never more adequately done than when i last visited Jasons. To put that visit into perspective, the SQ we got that day way orders of magnitude beyond anything i have heard anywhere in my life. Again, i agree that if you don't have good speakers in a decent acoustic space, you are wasting your time. The quality of the digital source matters though, just to be clear. I would love to see someone pick a Sanyo portable CD player over the Aqvox...then i would seriously consider shutting this place down and giving up on you all  |
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Post by macca on Apr 16, 2023 11:19:09 GMT
As an aside if we are talking subjective impressions I had Ollie around here a coupe of years back now with his own amplifiers and DAC which we hooked up to my Audiolab transport with a £40 SP/dif cable. he was blown away by the sound quality (I was too since I pretty much never listen at the sort of levels he likes). I pointed out to him that there was no foo - no clocks, no fancy power cables, no grounding boxes, no balanced mains, no power conditioners, no isolation feet or platforms, no 'high rez recordings' and yet it was still possible to get jaw-dropping SQ from CD. he said something about my mains supply must be good. But it isn't, it's just good speakers in a good acoustic. That's all it needs with pretty much any digital source, doesn't matter if it's a cheap Sanyo portable CD player or $20K of Esoteric. If you haven't sorted those two things then you can spend all the money in the world on 'accessories' and still be chasing your tail. We had a great session that day, and yes...we got a really good sound out of your system. But that doesn't mean that it can't be improved. One thing HiFi has repeatedly demonstrated to me (and at times a humbling is just what you need) is that there is always something better, or someone with a system that has higher performance levels. Never more adequately done than when i last visited Jasons. To put that visit into perspective, the SQ we got that day way orders of magnitude beyond anything i have heard anywhere in my life. Again, i agree that if you don't have good speakers in a decent acoustic space, you are wasting your time. The quality of the digital source matters though, just to be clear. I would love to see someone pick a Sanyo portable CD player over the Aqvox...then i would seriously consider shutting this place down and giving up on you all quite agree the speakers and the room can always be improved. Likewise a turntable system. But the 'quality' of a digital source is easily quantified, and there is a definite limit as to what is possible before we reach the limit of audibility. You can reach that limit for a few hundred quid. Whilst some will be happy to understand that, for others - the tweakers - it is devastating news that they will not accept regardless of how much evidence is presented to them. Someone on another forum said this and I think it s quite apposite - Digital audio replay is not some alien technology recovered from a crashed space ship which we don't fully understand and which we are attempting to reverse engineer. The concepts are over a hundred years old and the practical engineering was sorted out in full by the 1970s. Who wants us to think otherwise? The salesmen. |
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Post by macca on Apr 16, 2023 11:31:34 GMT
btw one of the things that changed my mind about digital/CD (in my ignorance I was very much an 'analogue purity' man) was a friend's system fronted by a portable Technics player. Top of the range one but even so. It sounded wonderful.
Took me a long time to realise that the reason it sounded wonderful was simply because there was no reason why it shouldn't.
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Post by firebottle on Apr 16, 2023 12:45:54 GMT
You can reach that limit for a few hundred quid. Not in my experience. Just talking reclockers, the better ones give greater improvements. Unfortunately they are more expensive but that's life. |
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Post by bencat on Apr 18, 2023 15:28:20 GMT
Well the 50 Ohm cable arrived from Pickerings and I am sure that it measure and is all they say it is . However it looks just like the 50 Ohm thin cables that they sell on Amazon for use with Video Cameras so frankly not that impressive . Put it in the system and after about three hours playing there is not difference in sound to the cheapo pro lead I bought . So not somehting that would seem to make much difference and not something I would say is a must to have . At least I have the complete satisfaction of knowing that I have a correctly specified and terminated 50 Ohm BNC cable which is something .
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Post by bencat on Apr 19, 2023 12:59:50 GMT
Apologies for this in advance but it is relevant to this thread and not selling anything . It is a full detail of someone building a clock and how it can look . If nothing else it does give those with basic skills and good soldering technique some ideas of how to move forward (not me sorry this way above my pay grade) . Hope this is not breaking any forum rules www.hifiwigwam.com/threads/master-clock-build-thread.118051/ |
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Post by zleepy on Apr 19, 2023 14:12:04 GMT
Thanks for the link Bencat!
That is pretty much how I intend to do mine, but I don't see a need for doubled AC filtering. That case, although very nice indeed is a bit large for my tastes. I'll squeeze mine into a smaller one.
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Post by bencat on Apr 19, 2023 15:00:48 GMT
Know what you mean Zleepy I think I would prefer a smaller case but I think in this case it matches his DAC and let's him space things out to prevent any noise or electrical contamination . Would be very pleased if I could do any of the but not too realistic unless I could build it with someone to oversee what I was doing and made sure it was all safe .
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 19, 2023 15:28:11 GMT
Apologies for this in advance but it is relevant to this thread and not selling anything . It is a full detail of someone building a clock and how it can look . If nothing else it does give those with basic skills and good soldering technique some ideas of how to move forward (not me sorry this way above my pay grade) . Hope this is not breaking any forum rules www.hifiwigwam.com/threads/master-clock-build-thread.118051/It's almost like Chris and I had this idea a few weeks ago 😂 We added a LPSU for his Mutec whilst we were at it. I bypassed the subpar regulator on the clock PCB so it's powered directly from the 5v from the reg board.     |
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Post by firebottle on Apr 19, 2023 15:39:04 GMT
That's an expensive clock board.
If I was him I would have soldered the power wires to the clock board as well, removes a connector.
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Post by zleepy on Apr 20, 2023 4:42:26 GMT
That looks very nice Oli, as usual. What's coming next to the clock board? Another with a different frequency?
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Post by optical on Apr 20, 2023 4:55:03 GMT
That looks very nice Oli, as usual. What's coming next to the clock board? Another with a different frequency? Other board is to supply power to my Mutec so will just have an umbilical coming out the box along with the 10mhz clock cable (also going to Mutec).... Should be neat and reduce box count (by 1!).... |
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Post by zleepy on Apr 20, 2023 5:01:17 GMT
That looks very nice Oli, as usual. What's coming next to the clock board? Another with a different frequency? Other board is to supply power to my Mutec so will just have an umbilical coming out the box along with the 10mhz clock cable (also going to Mutec).... Should be neat and reduce box count (by 1!).... Ooh, very nice! I like that! I'm also struggling with too many boxes. That goes both for the ones in use, and especially for the ones not in use  |
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Post by misterc on Apr 20, 2023 13:41:36 GMT
Oh I thight you could use the other rail for the oven? is there no deicated supply for that?
Also ask Alan to change the resistors to set the output voltage to 5.25Vdc also take into consideration the length of the umbilical lead and losses in that for EMF
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Post by stevew on Apr 23, 2023 21:05:20 GMT
So in the end took a leap of faith and went for the Leo Bodnar.
Thanks Tony and Andrew.
Outstanding.
A lot has been said about the difference these things make.
All I can say (despite my system not being at its best right now.. but that’s another story), when I listen to The Night of Santiago’ by Leonard Cohen it’s a very revealing result.
Without the clock it’s like Leonard is reading the lyrics.
With the clock in it’s like Leonard is leaning in and telling the story in a much more conspiratorial way.
I know. Even as I write it, it sounds cobblers.. but it’s easily demonstrated by a couple of button presses on the Mutec.
Love it.
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 23, 2023 22:30:03 GMT
So in the end took a leap of faith and went for the Leo Bodnar. Thanks Tony and Andrew. Outstanding. A lot has been said about the difference these things make. All I can say (despite my system not being at its best right now.. but that’s another story), when I listen to The Night of Santiago’ by Leonard Cohen it’s a very revealing result. Without the clock it’s like Leonard is reading the lyrics. With the clock in it’s like Leonard is leaning in and telling the story in a much more conspiratorial way. I know. Even as I write it, it sounds cobblers.. but it’s easily demonstrated by a couple of button presses on the Mutec. Love it. Well done Steve. These clock things are quite the upgrade IMO. Tidy little unit that. |
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Post by bencat on Apr 24, 2023 10:20:55 GMT
Steve pleased that things are working as they should and I fully agree with you about the effect and your description is spot on it is just more real and as if the artists are there (we all know they are not but anything that makes the illusion more believable is a good thing ) and the difference is as you say not small . The very large increase I have heard has made me less keen to mess about with small gains and unless there is a real uplift then I am not going to be that interested . This is only because now my system is sounding so good I feel less of a need to get better. Before anyone comes in and says anything no this is not just the external clock . I have spent many years getting this system to sound the way I want it too the clock has added that reality and refinement that was seemingly just out of reach but if you system is not working then an external clock is not the only answer .
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Post by bencat on Apr 24, 2023 15:08:28 GMT
This is a question that may or may not be related to clocks . Hopefully Tony or someone with equal knowledge can let me know . I use the Leo Bodnor clock in my main system and have heard very clearly what it does . Like Tony and I think a few on here I dislike USB as a format for digital . So in my second system which uses an SBT as player and USB out I used an Audio GD DI-2014 that I bought off John and this improved things and has been in the system ever since . Now as i know many of us do I was trawling e-bay months ago and saw a much smaller DDC from Audio GD and as it was only £40 delivered I just pressed the button . First before I even got to plug it in I lent it to a mate . Then when he was giving it back to me and again before I managed to get it in my system it weent out on a very long loan and only really returned about two months ago . First thought were to sell it on but instead as if you have a scatter gun brain like mine you get a bad case of the What if?,s . So I decided to put the little DDC connected by Supra Excaliber USB cable after the SBT . I then took the SPDIF output from that in to the DI-2014 and then the twice worked on signal in to my system . First of all it worked but I began to think it sounded much better than just the DI-2014 on its own . After quite a few weeks of listening both to my main system and this one I have been mainly doing digital stuff like loading SD cards with music so have been listening to this system most of today .
Now there is a direct connection between how it sounds now and how my main system sounds . This system using the two unit chain now sounds much more real with real texture and nuance to vocals . Like Steve was describing above artists seem to have made an effort to get out the speakers and in to my room . All instruments sound more real and there is a very definite suppleness to the sound as it insinuates in to your brain . I keep getting distracted and listening to a guitar part or the bass on tracks as it just becomes more clear and obvious of why it was played that way .
Now for certain this second system does not for me sound as good as my main system but there is no input to use an external clock . However in its own way it is sounding exceedingly good and better than I ever remember it doing before . The little Audio GD unit is being LPSU powered but the DI-2014 is supposed to be used with just a mains connection and thats how it is being used . So why does the use of two units in tandem sound better then either unit on their own ? Is this again down to the quality of the clock in the DI-2014 making the timing better ? No clue myself but it does work and is staying as it is .
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