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Post by misterc on Mar 28, 2023 10:01:29 GMT
Sorry about this as this thread has been seperated not sure were to put this but will make it here . So as I mentioned I contacted Leo Bodnar asking if they could offer a 75 ohm clock that was more suited to audio . The response was not a no but that they had not sold many clocks to the audio community so they were not sure the demand was there . Well Tony says he has put quite a few people on to this clock like me they may well not be letting LB know they will be using this clock for audio but a 75 ohm one would be better . So now we have a stand off no new clock without being sure they will sell no demand of no one knows it is possible . Not sure what can be done here but any suggestions would be great . The LB is not intented as an audio clock, I never said it was, but its a decent well out unit that is affordable for many people hence why I suggest it and over the last six years well over 100 audio guys use it, I would say at least 30 in the six months alone with lots of different equipment. Even heps dcs owners discover music, buit nothat many admit it lol. I felt this would help you guys achieve a better performnace evenlope for not much outlay. Sorry if its not what you are after. I'll just apologise for this then.
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Post by bencat on Mar 28, 2023 10:52:55 GMT
Tony you have misunderstood my post and sorry for not being clear . You indeed never suggested this was an audio clock and I read clearly on the LB website is what they intended it for . It is also all the things you suggest it and more and would encourage anyone to try it even with the impedance mismatch . I was only trying to find a way to make it work and function better and one way was to ask LB if they would consider making a 75 ohm one I was not asking for other clock suggestions but if t. here was any way we could convince LB to make one . With the advice given by Alan there now looks like another option to change the Mutec and get things matched that way . Any links to getting one of those bnc impedance connectors hopefully from a UK site.hopefully all other readers will now realise that Tony had been a true and honest help over this clock it is all he said it was . I have also decided that I will be taking my Mutec and clock to the Wam Show this year and adding it to my two way active system to see if it can do the same thing with that .
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optical
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Post by optical on Mar 28, 2023 11:50:39 GMT
firebottle Alan, I'm getting a red led light up for power on my clock . . . yours is green . . . hmmmm . . . It seems to work (ie doing something to the Mutec) and it locks on fine and sounds excellent so I'm wondering if some are red and some are green? Although thats being optimistic I concede . . . Light doesn't change from 4-13V . . . seems stable at 0.45A. Any ideas?
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Post by firebottle on Mar 28, 2023 12:10:08 GMT
Hi Chris, red or green probably just which factory (or day?) it was assembled in/on.
The board has a 5V regulator on it hence the minimum supply voltage spec of 7V.
The closer to the minimum 7V will give the lowest heat dissipation for the regulator but the crystal oven will always be at an elevated temperature.
Current consumption starts at about 0.5A whilst the oven is warming up, dropping after about 3 minutes to 0.2A, then to a little less as things stabilise over time.
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Post by bencat on Mar 28, 2023 12:18:32 GMT
Also for the real idiots amongst us I can identify the link in the Mutec from the photograph but should that be removed completely or the link moved over to the spare pin on the left which will then have a spare in on the right ? I am doing this because my Dad always told me and through out my life I have found this to be true , the only stupid question is the one you did not ask .
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Post by firebottle on Mar 28, 2023 12:25:15 GMT
Just move to the spare pin.
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Post by antonio on Mar 28, 2023 13:49:25 GMT
Sorry about this as this thread has been seperated not sure were to put this but will make it here . So as I mentioned I contacted Leo Bodnar asking if they could offer a 75 ohm clock that was more suited to audio . The response was not a no but that they had not sold many clocks to the audio community so they were not sure the demand was there . Well Tony says he has put quite a few people on to this clock like me they may well not be letting LB know they will be using this clock for audio but a 75 ohm one would be better . So now we have a stand off no new clock without being sure they will sell no demand of no one knows it is possible . Not sure what can be done here but any suggestions would be great . The LB is not intented as an audio clock, I never said it was, but its a decent well out unit that is affordable for many people hence why I suggest it and over the last six years well over 100 audio guys use it, I would say at least 30 in the six months alone with lots of different equipment. Even heps dcs owners discover music, buit nothat many admit it lol. I felt this would help you guys achieve a better performnace evenlope for not much outlay. Sorry if its not what you are after. I'll just apologise for this then.
The music just keeps flowing on the Rossini Apex here without a clock, as Jason will attest to next Tuesday when he comes and visits.  |
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Post by misterc on Mar 28, 2023 14:11:27 GMT
The music just keeps flowing on the Rossini Apex here without a clock, as Jason will attest to next Tuesday when he comes and visits. Dazve,
But doesn't your brother use the matching Rossini clock then?
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Post by bencat on Mar 28, 2023 14:17:30 GMT
The LB is not intented as an audio clock, I never said it was, but its a decent well out unit that is affordable for many people hence why I suggest it and over the last six years well over 100 audio guys use it, I would say at least 30 in the six months alone with lots of different equipment. Even heps dcs owners discover music, buit nothat many admit it lol. I felt this would help you guys achieve a better performnace evenlope for not much outlay. Sorry if its not what you are after. I'll just apologise for this then.
The music just keeps flowing on the Rossini Apex here without a clock, as Jason will attest to next Tuesday when he comes and visits. . But could the addition of a clock make it sound better ? Easy to say everything is wonderful until you get to hear the difference . However I would agree that it the addition of a clock had been in the high hundreds I would probably have not tried it . |
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Post by antonio on Mar 28, 2023 14:43:24 GMT
The music just keeps flowing on the Rossini Apex here without a clock, as Jason will attest to next Tuesday when he comes and visits. Dazve,
But doesn't your brother use the matching Rossini clock then?
Sold it since we purchased the Antipodes K50, we now use AES/EBU and the Rossini clock only clocks usb. We would have to purchase the Vivaldi clock for AES connection. |
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Post by antonio on Mar 28, 2023 14:46:44 GMT
The music just keeps flowing on the Rossini Apex here without a clock, as Jason will attest to next Tuesday when he comes and visits. . But could the addition of a clock make it sound better ? Easy to say everything is wonderful until you get to hear the difference . However I would agree that it the addition of a clock had been in the high hundreds I would probably have not tried it . Just more boxes and wires, sometimes you just have to say enough is enough. We may try a clock one day, my brother is more inclined to spend his 'ard earned' on better speakers. From what I've heard with digital front end improvements they are more subtle rather that night and day, speakers make a difference. |
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Post by misterc on Mar 28, 2023 15:26:24 GMT
Dazve,
But doesn't your brother use the matching Rossini clock then?
Sold it since we purchased the Antipodes K50, we now use AES/EBU and the Rossini clock only clocks usb. We would have to purchase the Vivaldi clock for AES connection. That is the BIG issue with the Rissini clock very careful connections by the factory for that product Dave. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 28, 2023 21:13:24 GMT
My head is mince after listening to the system with this in it today. I wouldn't have believed it had it not been so easy to A/B with it in and out, but I am now TOTALLY convinced that this thing could be the BIGGEST hifi bargain of all time. Struggled to figure out why it wasn't working, but Alan nipped over double time to get it going and wow...I am stunned. Well done finding this little gadget Al, and thanks for popping round.  Oh! And thanks for the 50ohm adapter too....no idea if it makes a difference, but I no longer have to worry about it. Top man. |
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Post by bencat on Mar 29, 2023 8:18:42 GMT
So another added to the band of people that says this does make a difference and not a very subtle one either . Thank Alan for starting this off on here and for Tony for giving the less technically gifted amongst us an option that works as well .
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Post by bencat on Mar 29, 2023 10:08:52 GMT
Okay this will only apply to those who go down the LB clock route but I will detail it anyway . Within the settings you can put the LB clock in sleep mode and it continues to work but in this mode noise is supposed to be lowered . The PITA but is every time you turn the system bak on you need to plug in a pc wake it let it get frequency then put it back in sleep . Not tried this yet so no clue if it improved things or not . I have too many things to try with impedence matching to do this now . Will leave everything as it is and this will be the final tweak at the end . But if anyone else wants to give it a try then we are all ears . This is proving a very large rabbit hole to go down and is branching out in to many areas . Good thing is from the start we are getting better music so there is encouragement to to keep searching .
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Post by optical on Mar 29, 2023 10:12:12 GMT
This is proving a very large rabbit hole to go down and is branching out in to many areas . Good thing is from the start we are getting better music so there is encouragement to to keep searching . A perfect summery of what a lot of us are trying to do here Andrew, well put. |
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Post by bencat on Mar 29, 2023 12:44:40 GMT
Right to be clear I am still going to use the fully specified 50 ohm cable and the 50 ohm Through Terminator and the link switch inside the Mutec to get around the impedance mis match . However someone has post the following as solution which I do not know if it is correct or if it would have any impact on sound quality which is the most important thing . This is just for everyone to see and then we may get a little guidance from those who do know .
"Assuming the output is a sine wave, the fix should be to put an impedance matched in line low pass filter at 11Mhz. The side effect of that is it makes the impedance of the connected gear irrelevant."
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Post by firebottle on Mar 29, 2023 15:06:20 GMT
I'm not sure I like that suggestion as they are talking about the filter being impedance matched.
Just have the correct line impedance termination and no need of the extra complexity of a filter.
Getting some interesting results between using the TTL output (square wave) and the sine wave output of the OCXO clock.
With the sine output the bass is freer, it seems a bit dry with the TTL output.
Jerry has just visited and some classical has been played, amonst other genres. This has shown up a small treble lift when using the external clock compared to using the Mutec internal clock.
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Post by bencat on Mar 29, 2023 16:10:02 GMT
As always thanks Alan for giving an alternative view . I am as I say going to go the full fix as has been outlined by you and Tony so this would not be something i would look at but I thought it fair to offer an alternative always with the proviso it might have its own issues .
I am not sure if the clock I have offers you being able to switch between Square and TTL output as it is a GPS which may well make it different . Will read a bit more from the manual on the site and see if there is an option . If so will give it a try . Not noticed with my clock any increase in treble but as we are not really comparing the same thing it is hard to be able to comment .
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Post by zleepy on Mar 29, 2023 19:00:48 GMT
Oil/Alan, what was the problem with your clock?
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Post by firebottle on Mar 29, 2023 19:31:36 GMT
Wrong input selected, nothing serious.
Sometimes it's easy to step forward to the next 'lane' on the Mutec by pressing the wrong button, step or select.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 29, 2023 19:43:51 GMT
Oil/Alan, what was the problem with your clock? Total user error mate....too many LEDS lol |
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Post by zleepy on Mar 29, 2023 20:10:11 GMT
For the price of that clock board it’s hard not to buy one and house it into a case together with a LPSU…  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 29, 2023 20:27:06 GMT
For the price of that clock board it’s hard not to buy one and house it into a case together with a LPSU… Which is exactly the plan! |
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Post by misterc on Mar 30, 2023 8:41:48 GMT
Some dac's do prefer a sine over TTL logic outputs, BUT just be aware that `the output voltage can drop in peak to peak terms and depending on how the recieving clock is looking for a leading or trailing edge trigger.
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Post by stevew on Mar 30, 2023 9:54:26 GMT
You know.. sometimes I really do feel like the Mayor of Simpleton.
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Post by optical on Mar 30, 2023 10:00:59 GMT
You know.. sometimes I really do feel like the Mayor of Simpleton. I know what you mean Steve . . . BUT, after trawling through the threads again (and also having google open next to them, which was a big help for me), I think I'm getting a handle on the basic concepts. The language used is usually just in reference to the protocals used and the different outputs available, that along with impedance matching for the equipment to 'match' and you're most of the way there I think. (Assuming that's what you were talking about??). |
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Post by misterc on Mar 30, 2023 10:18:54 GMT
Chris I have been working with clocks for thrity years and they never cease to surpise you in different set ups (audio is only a small area of which work with them) Also R2R dac's imho react differently to clocking than a Deltra sigma dac, not worse or better just different and the way you approach this makes a much of a difference as adding the clock itself. Though I had a real 'interesting one' a couple of weeks working ona clock distribution hub for recording studio, kept find this odd rf pulse happening at infrequent time periods, what ever I did just couldn't track it down. So I fired up the real time spectrium analyser and bingo there it was.
After to some head scratching, I tracked it down to the chinese supplies master gps clock assembly, it way coded to send 'more information' other than just placement data to a more broader range of satellites than you would expect for just tracking purposes. What could that be, given this was a fairly basic GPS trimble set up possibly nothing of interest from that device others than movement, power useage, time on / off amount of data moved. Just think if this was happening in your ring door bell / Alexia or car its a gateway top your own network owwwwwwwww er missues |
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Post by optical on Mar 30, 2023 10:32:25 GMT
Chris I have been working with clocks for thrity years and they never cease to surpise you in different set ups (audio is only a small area of which work with them) Also R2R dac's imho react differently to clocking than a Deltra sigma dac, not worse or better just different and the way you approach this makes a much of a difference as adding the clock itself. Though I had a real 'interesting one' a cpouple of weeks working ona clock distribution hub for recording studio, kept find this odd rf pulse happeningat infrequent time periods, what ever I did just couldn't track it down. So I fired up the real time spectrium analyser and bingo there it was. After to some head scratching, I tracked it down to the chinese supplies master gps clock assembly, it way coded to send 'more information' other than just placement data to a more broader range of satellites than you would expect for just tracking purposes. What could that be, given this was a fairly basic GPS trimble set up possibly nothing of interest from that device others than movement, power useage, time on / off amopunt of data moved. Just think if this was happening in your ring door bell / Alexia or car its a gateway top your own network owwwwwwwww er missues Impressive troubleshooting there, as ever Tony, and indeed a little worrying on your last point . . . Coincidentally I too have been working with clocks for a few years myself (but without any knowledge regarding as to how/why they work ). I calibrate, diagnose and repair a lot of GPS kit, Leica mostly but some Trimble in the past. We do set the clock synchronisation for adapting to different satellites Glonas/Galileo etc using service programs on a computer so that part I do actually have some experience in, however how it actually applies to audio I am still only just beginning to get my head around. I was reading the other day that adding some clocks into the signal chain actually serves to increase 'attenuate' the signal, which in turn can be audibly pleasing but does not actually make the signal any 'cleaner' or 'more accurate', quite the opposite in fact. So a clock isn't a clock isn't a clock after all . . . . or something like that. Especially when it is applied in a digital audio context. As well as that I was reading how an externally applied re-clocking signal doesn't necessarily 'bypass' the devices internal clock either, which I found surprising, so I'm wondering if it providing the internal clock with a signal that is easier for it to decipher and therefore less 'load/work' being done by the internal clock would be a good thing? Anyway . . . rabbit hole is getting deeper by the minute . . . |
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Post by misterc on Mar 30, 2023 11:03:56 GMT
I was reading the other day that adding some clocks into the signal chain actually serves to increase 'attenuate' the signal, which in turn can be audibly pleasing but does not actually make the signal any 'cleaner' or 'more accurate', quite the opposite in fact. So a clock isn't a clock isn't a clock after all . . . . or something like that. Especially when it is applied in a digital audio context. As well as that I was reading how an externally applied re-clocking signal doesn't necessarily 'bypass' the devices internal clock either, which I found surprising, so I'm wondering if it providing the internal clock with a signal that is easier for it to decipher and therefore less 'load/work' being done by the internal clock would be a good thing? Anyway . . . rabbit hole is getting deeper by the minute . . . Chris
You need to look at what section of the serial data signal you are looking at and wherer it is going and what affect is is going to have on the end PLL/Synthetic clock/Dac chip
The reference 10Mhz clock are basically subsituting the extracted word clock portion of the incoming data stream and delivering a far more accurate timing pulse from which the bit clock & audio data can aligned, the difference between the theorectical arrive time Vs real world arrival time is the phase noise or Jitter.
So in a normal set up the word clock portion is extracted and use to 'time align' the bit & audio data as close as possible, by using a very high quality external reference pulse this is reducing the timing errors.
With the Mutec MC3+ you are actually (if using the wc output and inputs as well) getting double bubble, not only are you reclocking the incoming AES/USB/SPDIF audio data stream with its smart clock PLL design whioch proves very benefical as a lot of you chaps know, BUT adding a 10Mhz reference heightens this further because in essence you are master slave clocking the already reclocked incoming TDME signal.
What the result is a much more closely aligned incoming serial data stream that the dac's internal clock/PLL handles the same just with much less timing aligment errors, think of it of running your car on 6 star petrol, it will run much smoother, pull away cleaner, driver much more responsively and enjoyable while producing less emmissions due to the improved ignition advance the ecu can dial in because the octane rating improvment.
I am currently working on a new clock design which will be able to accept a much wider range of imcoming frequences (more on that later)
But just as a side bar Merging Technologies master clock freqeuncy is 625Khz for their own dante enablaled network players.
Personally I run a pair of MC3's in series with all of the toys on board, ultra low noise psu, massive power bank, all matching ultra low impedance cabling and connectors power side, full internally upgraded MC3's, top cabling all the way through, full vibration isolated, rf sinks on top of the units and master grounding system. Slaved to big Mutec SE-120 which has been totally reworked inside, its near the very limit of the phase noise analyser we have its that accurate. We also have recently accquired an ex-university Caesium standard, with atomic clocks its purely about long term accuracy and the loss in 0.00ppb (parts per billion) the half life of Rhobidum is 50K years lol so not really an issue for us lot 
Yes you may feel its bit OTT, but it makes a very signaificant contribution to my overall sound and is easily demonstratable and we do weekly to a broad spectrum of clients
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