|
Post by bencat on Mar 14, 2023 14:27:10 GMT
Okay been a brave boy and bought one of the LB clocks should be with me before the weekend I hope . Once it arrives will have a think and hopefully with a little help get it all connected and working . Will give it till next week to make any comment on how it sounds and then most likely plan my next steps with cables and the like .
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,555
|
Post by optical on Mar 14, 2023 14:41:18 GMT
Okay been a brave boy and bought one of the LB clocks should be with me before the weekend I hope . Once it arrives will have a think and hopefully with a little help get it all connected and working . Will give it till next week to make any comment on how it sounds and then most likely plan my next steps with cables and the like . Do report back bencat . . . . lots of eyes on this I imagine!
|
|
|
Post by bencat on Mar 14, 2023 14:52:54 GMT
Arrgh just spotted that there is also an option to connect an external clcok to the dCS Purcell . So as the LB unit says it has two outputs would I be able to send two signals to the Mutec and then use two separate rates one for the Delius and one for Purcell ? If not then which would be best to get the external clock matched to the LB unit the Delius or the Purcell ?
See I knew this was going to be just a start and that it would like mushrooms grow in the dark without me knowing . I have put a question on the dCS Community site about connecting the Delius and if I get an answer will also ask the same about the Purcell .
I know Tony know more about Mutec,s than most in the UK so will wait ans see what he says and what is or is not possible .
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,062
|
Post by Bigman80 on Mar 14, 2023 15:27:46 GMT
Okay been a brave boy and bought one of the LB clocks should be with me before the weekend I hope . Once it arrives will have a think and hopefully with a little help get it all connected and working . Will give it till next week to make any comment on how it sounds and then most likely plan my next steps with cables and the like . Well done! I love to see this kind of gamble. Keep us informed.
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Mar 14, 2023 16:46:38 GMT
Thanks Tony for clearing up my questions but not being as fully conversant with the digital chain and reading your reply has raised another question in my head . I think what you have said is that I would connect the LB clock to the Mutec and I would connect it to the clock input on the Mutec ? I would then as Alan showed change the settings on the Mutec to External clock . Now you then talk about using the Output clock from the Mutec and I should connect that to the Delius ? So doing this would add two extra SPDIF BNC cable one from LB to Mutec and one from Mutec to Delius . Hope that I have got all that correct . There is then as you say finding the best cable to connect the two but in the first instance I would just like it to work and see what that sounds like and live with that for a while before I go off and change anything . Could I also ask currently I use my Mutec with XLR AES/EBU output to my Delius I resume that this will still work fine without using an external clock connection to the Delius ?
Looked through the set up instructions and found that this unit requires a 12 Volt input and surprise I have a spare chifi 12 V LPSU sitting right next to me . I both love and hate this site as it has helped me to get things sounding much better but it keeps adding things to try and use to get even more . Glad to say this is not one of the most expensive things I have gone out on a limb with so I think I should just bite the bullet and order one and take it from there . Will also order a couple of cheap but well made BNC leads so that i am fully prepared .
BC
Yes RG59 coax and matching BNC will be fine, Farnell or RS are your friends between £9-22 each for 1m ready made I feel.
You can experiment with cables later, this will work.
The word clock sample rate output for the Mutec will automatically follow the input sample rate from the supplied file or stream but from memory you are limiteds to 24/96Khz been along time since I've been inside a Delieus or Elgar!!
You may have to enable the WC input on the Deliues menu I believe
Just use the usb power to the LB first you can adjust the amplitutue etc, I have my old settings somewhere.
With a reasonable PSU, respectable cable it trouced many so called pro audio word clocks, with a quality PSU, some internal updates slightly bigger box some isolation it kicked AD Emporer clock int touch.
You do realise you can add a word clock input to your Deliues right now, I would suggest 40% of the Mutec's we have sold are with DCS guys and many use two MC3+'s (one for each channel) as double bubble, a reclocking latch and a word clock genny its a no brainer also Esoteric owners have the same benefits
You can connect BOTH of the DCS units now from the Mutec no problem you have four WC outputs use them!
|
|
|
Post by zleepy on Mar 15, 2023 11:17:40 GMT
Apologies for drifting the thread from clocks, but since there are some serious cable nuts in here (I'm one..). What cables have you been using for connecting the source to the Mutecs BNC input?
I have recently bought a Mutec but for the stupid reason of my streamer not having a BNC output, I have not yet been able to connect it. I only have RCA-RCA and BNC-BNC cables.
Today I will buy some BNC connectors and make a RCA-BNC cable, but I am interested in what you guys are using? Do you have BNC output on your sources?
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,555
|
Post by optical on Mar 15, 2023 11:19:36 GMT
Apologies for drifting the thread from clocks, but since there are some serious cable nuts in here (I'm one..). What cables have you been using for connecting the source to the Mutecs BNC input? I have recently bought a Mutec but for the stupid reason of my streamer not having a BNC output, I have not yet been able to connect it. I only have RCA-RCA and BNC-BNC cables. Today I will buy some BNC connectors and make a RCA-BNC cable, but I am interested in what you guys are using? Do you have BNC output on your sources? No BNC output on sources so just use AES from streamer to AES input on Mutec. Why don't you use the RCA input on your Mutec? EDIT: Ignore that, don't think there is an RCA input on the Mutec (idiot!) . . . Toslink and AES/BNC only it seems. Strange, I thought I had used it with an RCA in before . . . apologies Did your Mutec come with an RCA - BNC adapter? (So you can just use the RCA coax cable). Obviously a dedicated RCA to BNC cable would be better but just so you can hook it up? I have a spare adapter if you want to try one?
|
|
|
Post by zleepy on Mar 15, 2023 11:41:25 GMT
Oh..can the RCA coax connection work as an input as well? I thought I read in the manual that I should connect spdif by BNC. Now I feel stupid! EDIT I see you came to the same conclusion as me. So back to square one. I have one somewhere in my storage boxes but spent hours on finding it and only got mad . Thanks for the offer, but I will make a RCA-BNC cable and since I'll be buying some BNC connectors, I'll grab some adapters as well. They can be handy to have, it seems . Still interested in how you cable nuts have approached the spif cable.
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Mar 15, 2023 11:42:37 GMT
That connection is OUTPUT ONLY Karl
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,555
|
Post by optical on Mar 15, 2023 11:44:19 GMT
Oh..can the RCA coax connection work as an input as well? I thought I read in the manual that I should connect spdif by BNC. Now I feel stupid! No sorry that was me getting confused, apologies! You can use an RCA cable with an RCA to BNC adapter to use the BNC input of the Mutec (or any of the Toslink.AES/USB if you have it) inputs, but it doesn't come as standard with an RCA in. Let me know if you want to try the adapter, happy to send it to you. Although making an RCA to BNC cable would be a great idea to get it up and running too.
|
|
|
Post by zleepy on Mar 15, 2023 11:48:27 GMT
Thanks guys, I edited my post above. Apparently I'm not writing fast enough .
|
|
optical
Moderator
BIG STAR
Be Excellent To Eachother
Posts: 1,555
|
Post by optical on Mar 15, 2023 12:13:30 GMT
|
|
|
Post by bencat on Mar 15, 2023 12:43:56 GMT
This is me adding to this and in some ways it is just what I use . Firstly and most on here will not agree but I can only speak for me and what I hear . I find that the quality of XLR cables is nothing like the difference RCA cables makes . I do hear very different results with rca interconnects used for music . With any good balanced system and in particular for Digital AES/EBU connection I would not honestly be able to tell you when a Cheap well made Pro cable or expensive audiophile cable is used . Most important for XLR digital connection is that the cable is 110 ohm as this is the correct one for digital . For BNC or RCA digital connections they need to be 75 Ohm (some BNC are 50 ohm and you need to avoid these) . Now from my streamer to the Mutec I use a Wave Cable which is very expensive but reduces background hash so well for me it is worth it . I am going to this week triple the BNC cables I use and I am going to use the 75 ohm thin cables that are produced for Video Cameras as they are well made and 75 ohm . Now this is going to be a get me going set up and have everything working . Once this is established and I am happy I will then try and borrow a few different BNC cable and try them out in each leg of the chain and see what I think . I am going to try and avoid spending any money on this and just see how it sounds before I run off and spend any more . So if anyone has any spare decent quality BNC cables that they do not mind lending out then hold that thought for a few weeks then PM me and I will be happy to give them a try .
In case anyone is interested here is the cable I mention above . I would not normally consider ever buying very expensive cables (mainly because i can not afford them) but i was given a 30 day trial with this and once the improvement was heard I just could not go back so had to bite the bullet and buy one .
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Mar 15, 2023 13:00:05 GMT
I can lend you a couple of BNC cables when the time comes Andy.
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Mar 15, 2023 13:20:05 GMT
AES produices the best jitter reduction figures on the MC3+ (no external clocks) next is SPDIF, and imho the most important issue with 75 Ohm data transmissions are impedence matching which mean the reduction in the S11 parameter to at least <10dB as possible This reveals the reflections that happen when the signal bounces back along the cable various amount of times & ampliute depending on lauch power. Materials do matter as does dielectric constant, also remember every dac is different and some favour USB, otheres I2s some AES.
75 Ohms is used for lower loss against greater power delivery, while AES is 110Ohms
Where as many EE applications are 50 Ohms for greater power transfer ability
Matching impendence is very critical for serial data transfer. I have always have the best results with DCS with Dual AES, we have a few of wave storm cables here from trade backs if people wish to try no problem, the are quite quiet possible due to the amount of ferrites along its length. Next Month when I've cleared the decks, I would be happily to measure cables on a VNA for your cables so you could make a comparsion chart see if you feel there are any trends emerging
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,062
|
Post by Bigman80 on Mar 15, 2023 14:44:18 GMT
This is me adding to this and in some ways it is just what I use . Firstly and most on here will not agree but I can only speak for me and what I hear . I find that the quality of XLR cables is nothing like the difference RCA cables makes . I do hear very different results with rca interconnects used for music . With any good balanced system and in particular for Digital AES/EBU connection I would not honestly be able to tell you when a Cheap well made Pro cable or expensive audiophile cable is used . Most important for XLR digital connection is that the cable is 110 ohm as this is the correct one for digital . For BNC or RCA digital connections they need to be 75 Ohm (some BNC are 50 ohm and you need to avoid these) . Now from my streamer to the Mutec I use a Wave Cable which is very expensive but reduces background hash so well for me it is worth it . I am going to this week triple the BNC cables I use and I am going to use the 75 ohm thin cables that are produced for Video Cameras as they are well made and 75 ohm . Now this is going to be a get me going set up and have everything working . Once this is established and I am happy I will then try and borrow a few different BNC cable and try them out in each leg of the chain and see what I think . I am going to try and avoid spending any money on this and just see how it sounds before I run off and spend any more . So if anyone has any spare decent quality BNC cables that they do not mind lending out then hold that thought for a few weeks then PM me and I will be happy to give them a try .
In case anyone is interested here is the cable I mention above . I would not normally consider ever buying very expensive cables (mainly because i can not afford them) but i was given a 30 day trial with this and once the improvement was heard I just could not go back so had to bite the bullet and buy one .
Are we talking about XLR interconnects or AES cables?
|
|
|
Post by bencat on Mar 15, 2023 15:34:06 GMT
Well to answer Oli in this case AES cables in and out of my Mutec in other words digital signal only not audio .
Right decided today to get the output clock connections to my dCS pair and then found out that my Purcell upsampler is a very old model and has no word clock in . The Delius DAC however does so connected that up but could not get the Mutec to show it was connected and light up the clock out controls . While doing all this in my usual ham fisted way I have broken the connector from my Sbooster to the Mutec and also the power in plug has stopped connecting . So now both of these need to be sorted out before I can address any of the issues . So much for a nice weekend of trying things as my wife is in work all weekend so I will be left alone to play .
On another note to update ordered the LB clock yesterday and UPS is supposed to be delivering it today . Having said that it is now officially late but really impressed with the speed and attendance to my order from LB . Sad part now is when it arrives I have nothing to use it with so will have to wait till the Mutec is fixed . Ahh well good job I have other systems to play with .
|
|
|
Post by bencat on Mar 15, 2023 15:58:45 GMT
Right well after a little more messing about and with me being the LPSU king I have put another 5 V LPSU that can directly plug in to the Mutec and power is restored . I still can not get any clock output to show and the Purcell DAC does not seem to be able to detect and clock input from the Mutec . At least when the LB clock arrives I should be able to add that to the Mutec and see what I get then .
I think the issue with the Purcell DAC is that the clock is set for each input and I use 2 x AES so it might well be that I have to set the clock for each AES input one at a time and then select the two AES outputs . Probably need to talk to someone who knows the Purcell well to get this working as it should .
However music is back so I am much happier than a few hours ago . Radio Paradise is belting out and sounding ace fingers crossed this will just be another one of those small hiccups .
|
|
|
Post by bencat on Mar 15, 2023 17:30:41 GMT
Well LB Clock has arrived and after a frustrating set up failing to get any GPS signal finally get it working with static red light . So then took it down and connected it to the Mutec clock input . External Clock and Reclk light to green as per Alan's photo but the blue lock light just keeps flashing and no audio light out . Switch back to internal clock and things light up correctly and music comes out . Switch back to External and again blue lock light just flashing and no sound . Not sure what to do next so open to suggestions . It appears that the LB clock is not able to offer a stable PLL signal for the Mutec to lock on to .
|
|
|
Post by lurch on Mar 15, 2023 18:06:29 GMT
bencatHave just posted you a set of SBooster tips I had spare, should be with you Friday. You would have had them tomorrow but I missed the MyHerpes collection by 10 minutes.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,062
|
Post by Bigman80 on Mar 15, 2023 18:16:39 GMT
Well LB Clock has arrived and after a frustrating set up failing to get any GPS signal finally get it working with static red light . So then took it down and connected it to the Mutec clock input . External Clock and Reclk light to green as per Alan's photo but the blue lock light just keeps flashing and no audio light out . Switch back to internal clock and things light up correctly and music comes out . Switch back to External and again blue lock light just flashing and no sound . Not sure what to do next so open to suggestions . It appears that the LB clock is not able to offer a stable PLL signal for the Mutec to lock on to . misterc Any advice?
|
|
|
Post by bencat on Mar 15, 2023 18:24:12 GMT
bencatHave just posted you a set of SBooster tips I had spare, should be with you Friday. You would have had them tomorrow but I missed the MyHerpes collection by 10 minutes. Thanks John much appreciated .
|
|
|
Post by pete on Mar 15, 2023 19:10:44 GMT
I know I keep saying it, but, bloody hell this community is good!!
|
|
|
Post by bencat on Mar 15, 2023 19:20:28 GMT
Question after thought about my set up of the LB clock . Do you need to have the clock connected to your PC and connected to the Mutec ? I had the clock on its own connected to my PC and set that up then plugged it in to the Mutec later . Do I need to bring the PC to my system and do the set up with the Mutec connected .
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Mar 16, 2023 8:46:17 GMT
Best thing top do BC give me a call abd I'll walk you through it ok
|
|
|
Post by zleepy on Mar 16, 2023 9:49:18 GMT
I am very interested in your experience with the LB clock once you get it up and running Bencat.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,062
|
Post by Bigman80 on Mar 16, 2023 10:16:32 GMT
Best thing top do BC give me a call abd I'll walk you through it ok May I ask that either you or BC puts a setup guide on the forum please. I think this may end up being a popular product amongst the community, and that would be a great help.
|
|
|
Post by misterc on Mar 16, 2023 10:16:33 GMT
Just a side bar plenty of guys on TAS who have the LB on their set up's they like you guys are tinkers par excellence
|
|
|
Post by bencat on Mar 16, 2023 10:51:14 GMT
Morning Tony thank you for the offer as there are two sets of set up one for the LB Clock and one for the Mutec should I have my PC down where my system is ? If so will get things set before i give you a call .
Oli
If I can get all this to work then I will write a step by step of what I did and how in the end (fingers crossed) I got this up and working .
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
AA Founding Member & Bigbottle Audio Creator
Posts: 16,062
|
Post by Bigman80 on Mar 16, 2023 11:27:06 GMT
Morning Tony thank you for the offer as there are two sets of set up one for the LB Clock and one for the Mutec should I have my PC down where my system is ? If so will get things set before i give you a call . Oli If I can get all this to work then I will write a step by step of what I did and how in the end (fingers crossed) I got this up and working . Top man. I think the community will appreciate that.
|
|