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Post by misterc on Mar 16, 2023 12:47:37 GMT
BC can you email me a couple of phone images of the set up so I can digest how you have it currenty wired
info@coherent-systems.co.uk
What I will do is make a couple of nice sized images clearly showing how to and where to connect which I with start a connectiveity thread on ok
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Post by bencat on Mar 17, 2023 11:46:05 GMT
Okay all just a little update over this . It would seem that the set up and issues I am having may well not be anything to do with the LB Clock which was easy to set up just needing a little patience in my location as it takes about two o three minutes for the unit to get a GPS signal this also happens using a Tom Tom so it is not alone in that . Just follow the instructions when you get the unit about updating the firmware and it is pretty easy to then get it working with two red lights static showing .
However it would appear that my Mutec may well be the issue as it does not seem to be seeing the clock input and I am having a few issues as well getting a clock output (this may be another problem but hey ho) . So after great help by Tony I have agred with him to box up both the LB Clock and the Mutec and send them for him to have a look at and see if he can diagnose the problem and then if possible fix it .
Once this has been done and I have the unit back I will make a full set up post both for the LB and the Mutec for how I am using it . Will not be posting this off till next Tuesday so will be a while before everything is back and hopefully fully working .
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 17, 2023 12:03:50 GMT
Okay all just a little update over this . It would seem that the set up and issues I am having may well not be anything to do with the LB Clock which was easy to set up just needing a little patience in my location as it takes about two o three minutes for the unit to get a GPS signal this also happens using a Tom Tom so it is not alone in that . Just follow the instructions when you get the unit about updating the firmware and it is pretty easy to then get it working with two red lights static showing . However it would appear that my Mutec may well be the issue as it does not seem to be seeing the clock input and I am having a few issues as well getting a clock output (this may be another problem but hey ho) . So after great help by Tony I have agred with him to box up both the LB Clock and the Mutec and send them for him to have a look at and see if he can diagnose the problem and then if possible fix it . Once this has been done and I have the unit back I will make a full set up post both for the LB and the Mutec for how I am using it . Will not be posting this off till next Tuesday so will be a while before everything is back and hopefully fully working . Ah, this is disappointing. Hopefully you and T can get it running asap
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Post by misterc on Mar 22, 2023 15:46:58 GMT
I have sorted out Andy's Bodnar & Mutec combination all 100% and working as it should, I will post up a set up on the Bodnar GPS clock as well that will help clear up confusion on that front as well.
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Post by bencat on Mar 22, 2023 15:53:20 GMT
Tony what can I say but that is really quick work . They only arrived with you this morning . Was something wrong with either or was it just used error ? I have a masters degree in user error . And just so no one copies you my name is Andrew and no one ever shortens it to Andy . My mum hated this and it has stuck it is why I try to ask people which they prefer .
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Post by antonio on Mar 22, 2023 15:58:58 GMT
User Error Andrew.
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Post by misterc on Mar 22, 2023 17:00:49 GMT
I'm just putting togther some images for a post for helping you chaps get the best out of the set up but in the mean time its all as we say here FAB
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Post by bencat on Mar 22, 2023 17:48:49 GMT
Nice to see things with lights on as they should be . Have you also been able to check output clock as well ?
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Post by bencat on Mar 23, 2023 17:03:08 GMT
Right just to say all of this was my lack of knowledge and both the Mutec and the LB clock were working correctly and I should have been able to do this myself . Sadly I was not able to understand and complete the instructions so Tony has corrected everything and it is all working as it should . Soon both items will be on the way back and then the fun but starts. Tony will also post full instructions on the LB clock set up so no one else can make the same error I did . Once things are in place will then get to see if this really does matter to sound quality .
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Post by zleepy on Mar 24, 2023 8:43:12 GMT
Great news! Looking forward to your findings since I own a Mutec myself.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 24, 2023 9:06:48 GMT
Right just to say all of this was my lack of knowledge and both the Mutec and the LB clock were working correctly and I should have been able to do this myself . Sadly I was not able to understand and complete the instructions so Tony has corrected everything and it is all working as it should . Soon both items will be on the way back and then the fun but starts. Tony will also post full instructions on the LB clock set up so no one else can make the same error I did . Once things are in place will then get to see if this really does matter to sound quality . Well done Tony. He's a good egg isn't he.
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Post by bencat on Mar 25, 2023 9:31:18 GMT
Right after Tony,s kind and patient intervention the Mutec and LB clock were back yesterday . Well Freya my granddaughter was here as well so no chance to do anything . After the whirlwind had left (did I ever have that much energy ?) Too tired to do anything but slump in a chair . So this morning unpacked everything and slowly connected everything as Tony had set everything to my set up did not have to worry just turn on . My first test for anything clock related is always Six Music there are shows I really like but before the Mutec you were aware that this was not the best quality stream . But when I first used the Mutec the music just became better and more listenable . Now add the LB clock and it just becomes a much better source , voice,s speaking sound like real people and you get a sense of the space they are talking in even if at times it is clear it is being added by an engineer . Music now has different qualities based on each recording and less of the homogenous sounding had before . A Midtown track is clearly of its time and place and the tambourine just cuts through the mix as it was meant to .Then I switched it over to music from my HD all FLAC and the quality ramps up ,yes the more accurate clock helps the lower quality stream be more real and listenable but better source and just better improvement .The Doors are playing now and I love them but lots of what was recorded was not the very best but just does not matter. Now the band are rock solid and placed in a soundstage Him is upfront and centre and singing his heart out . So I am going to leave off now as my initial delight could be misleading . Live with for a bit and will add a little when I have got used to this level of reality and how now the illusion is just so much better . Bottom line is our you have a Mutec or other items that takes an external clock the LB is a must even to just try out I very much doubt if you will ever take it out . Now one more connection to go but that will need another idiot guide .
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 25, 2023 10:40:36 GMT
Right after Tony,s kind and patient intervention the Mutec and LB clock were back yesterday . Well Freya my granddaughter was here as well so no chance to do anything . After the whirlwind had left (did I ever have that much energy ?) Too tired to do anything but slump in a chair . So this morning unpacked everything and slowly connected everything as Tony had set everything to my set up did not have to worry just turn on . My first test for anything clock related is always Six Music there are shows I really like but before the Mutec you were aware that this was not the best quality stream . But when I first used the Mutec the music just became better and more listenable . Now add the LB clock and it just becomes a much better source , voice,s speaking sound like real people and you get a sense of the space they are talking in even if at times it is clear it is being added by an engineer . Music now has different qualities based on each recording and less of the homogenous sounding had before . A Midtown track is clearly of its time and place and the tambourine just cuts through the mix as it was meant to .Then I switched it over to music from my HD all FLAC and the quality ramps up ,yes the more accurate clock helps the lower quality stream be more real and listenable but better source and just better improvement .The Doors are playing now and I love them but lots of what was recorded was not the very best but just does not matter. Now the band are rock solid and placed in a soundstage Him is upfront and centre and singing his heart out . So I am going to leave off now as my initial delight could be misleading . Live with for a bit and will add a little when I have got used to this level of reality and how now the illusion is just so much better . Bottom line is our you have a Mutec or other items that takes an external clock the LB is a must even to just try out I very much doubt if you will ever take it out . Now one more connection to go but that will need another idiot guide . That's quite the endorsement! Mine hasn't arrived yet, but I am genuinely excited now.
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Post by bencat on Mar 25, 2023 11:06:36 GMT
Oli please believe me that I have been very restrained with what I wanted to say but have reined it in because it will make lots of people just think it is too much and not possible . I have no idea if I am one of those people who is just really sensitive to timing and this is why for me with my ears in my system I hear what I do . IT will be very interesting when you get yours what you feel about it and if you can even hear a difference . Tony has been a big help and in the back ground has been telling me this little unit has most of the ability of some very expensive units he is not wrong . I am very much having stop myself from getting carried away after I have lived with in to next week I will return to this and really let it out and hopefully by that time you will have yours working and then there is two of us showing how things seem to different people .
I am quite content and secure that if others only hear a small difference then that is what they hear because what it does for me makes me very happy and digging out tracks and artists I have listened to for ages and just marvelling at how good they sound .
Those that own a Mutec will know this but it is very easy to change the input from the external clock back to the internal one and so you can then easily hear what the external one is adding . I have done this a couple of times and yes the external clock is the way to go . Now were is a dCS expert when you really need one .
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Post by misterc on Mar 25, 2023 11:59:19 GMT
This is why I suggested the Bodnar to many folks its an affordable, simpe, to use BUT good upgrade even those dac that take a direct 10Mhz input as well (Gustrad A/R26's) etc it make very positive differnces to a great many systems no question.
My personal stash of clock is many, from £30 to well over five figures, some of the touted onesn like After Dark (lol) humm maybe not..
Yes Oil & Alan can make a better lps for it & a good 50 OHM CABLE WITH A 75 OHM impedence matcher on the other end with prove another positive lift.
Like all audio area's they are products that just do what they say on the tin, the LB GPS clock is one of them.
For those measurment chaps, the LB clock has actually got quite a average phase noise reading around -80dBc @ 1hz many offer upto -108/110dBC spec, however there is one trait NONE of the clock producers (audio wise) mention except two the least noise (or lack of spurri) on the phase noise plot curve. IMHO this is more imprtant that having a higher PN spec.
However they are some products that have both, and the difference beween those and the LB GPS are light years apart but then so is the cost.
Do give these ago chaps no one I have suggested these to has never came back with anything less than positive.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 25, 2023 14:20:38 GMT
Oli please believe me that I have been very restrained with what I wanted to say but have reined it in because it will make lots of people just think it is too much and not possible . I have no idea if I am one of those people who is just really sensitive to timing and this is why for me with my ears in my system I hear what I do . IT will be very interesting when you get yours what you feel about it and if you can even hear a difference . Tony has been a big help and in the back ground has been telling me this little unit has most of the ability of some very expensive units he is not wrong . I am very much having stop myself from getting carried away after I have lived with in to next week I will return to this and really let it out and hopefully by that time you will have yours working and then there is two of us showing how things seem to different people . I am quite content and secure that if others only hear a small difference then that is what they hear because what it does for me makes me very happy and digging out tracks and artists I have listened to for ages and just marvelling at how good they sound . Those that own a Mutec will know this but it is very easy to change the input from the external clock back to the internal one and so you can then easily hear what the external one is adding . I have done this a couple of times and yes the external clock is the way to go . Now were is a dCS expert when you really need one . So good people won't believe you? Yeah, i know that feeling lol my £12.99 one from China should be here any day now, so i am really looking forward to giving it a run out. Glad this has been a good result for you.
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Post by bencat on Mar 25, 2023 14:47:36 GMT
Oli will make no comment with regard to either Alan,s that started this or the one you are getting . Both of you know what you are doing and will come to your own conclusions . What I will say is that I am sure that Tony does know about this . With this unit being already made and able as mine is to be used with an LPSU it is as close to plug and play if you follow Tonys set up advice . For the less technically gifted amongst us I would say start here . Maybe when both you and Alan when you finish your two units a clock bake off including the LB could be arranged just to see what differences there are . Only one proviso Tony is not allowed to bring along the Mutec clock it may well be much better but I could not afford it and i do not want to get sound envy .
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 25, 2023 15:41:51 GMT
Oli will make no comment with regard to either Alan,s that started this or the one you are getting . Both of you know what you are doing and will come to your own conclusions . What I will say is that I am sure that Tony does know about this . With this unit being already made and able as mine is to be used with an LPSU it is as close to plug and play if you follow Tonys set up advice . For the less technically gifted amongst us I would say start here . Maybe when both you and Alan when you finish your two units a clock bake off including the LB could be arranged just to see what differences there are . Only one proviso Tony is not allowed to bring along the Mutec clock it may well be much better but I could not afford it and i do not want to get sound envy . Yeah, I have faith in Tony's opinion where digital replay is concerned, it was just that I'd already pulled the trigger on the £12.99 PCB and then this thread popped off. If this little PCB makes the kind of difference Alan tells me about, I'll start investigations into what's available in the DIY world.
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Post by misterc on Mar 25, 2023 16:18:13 GMT
I could bring my own clock instead see how that fairs, its not a GPS version though
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Post by misterc on Mar 26, 2023 16:43:57 GMT
Something I forgot to mention regarding the clock connections from the LB GPS clock they are 50Ohm, the Mutec & pretty most audio BNC inputs are 75Ohm
So as good as it sounds now imagine what if the reflections were reduced even more, so you can use an Impedence matching device.
For a far more matched impedence pathway I would recommend one of the quality proessional adapters
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Post by bencat on Mar 26, 2023 19:28:23 GMT
So a question if you have a 50 ohm cable and a 75 ohm cable which is better . The link you have his not only expensive but IS based so subject to VAT and duty .
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Post by macca on Mar 27, 2023 5:42:07 GMT
So a question if you have a 50 ohm cable and a 75 ohm cable which is better . The link you have his not only expensive but IS based so subject to VAT and duty . It will make no difference. Of course you won't believe me over what the salesman says. But it's your money.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 27, 2023 6:08:50 GMT
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 27, 2023 6:32:09 GMT
From a "the cable guy"
"The Impedance of the various devices being connected as well as the Coaxial Cable itself must match. So if you are, for instance, connecting a 75 Ohm video camera connection to a studio monitor, the coaxial cable must also be 75 Ohm AND the connectors on the coaxial cable (i.e. BNC connectors) must be 75 Ohm in Impedance. Every single time you have a mismatch in impedance, say between a 50 Ohm Coaxial Cable and a 75 Ohm Coaxial Connector (i.e. BNC), a standing wave develops.
A standing wave is a signal reflection that is essentially wasted. Every time a 50 and 75 Ohm Impedance mismatch occurs, about 5% of the signal is lost. These losses add up and can eventually degrade the signal to the point that it is unrecoverable or distorted. Some coaxial cable manufacturers will cut corners in this regard. The BNC connector, pictured above, was invented by our parent company, Amphenol, before World War 2. It is extremely popular, but most people don’t realize that they come in two versions: 50 Ohm and 75 Ohm. All of our coaxial cables at Cables on Demand always have the proper impedance matched connectors to line up with the coaxial cable being used"
I don't know enough about this stuff in enough depth to know if this matters in terms of digital signal like that from a streamer/mutec, or if it matters from a clock. It appears to matter more at much higher frequencies, but again, how that relates to what we use it for, i don't know. There must be one of these gadgets in China for very little money? If needed.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 27, 2023 6:34:52 GMT
So a question if you have a 50 ohm cable and a 75 ohm cable which is better . The link you have his not only expensive but IS based so subject to VAT and duty . It will make no difference. Of course you won't believe me over what the salesman says. But it's your money. Interesting take on digital in your sig, Macca: "I think a lot of digital people are just bored because there's little to tweak" It's probably got a bit of truth in it.
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Post by misterc on Mar 27, 2023 8:28:44 GMT
So a question if you have a 50 ohm cable and a 75 ohm cable which is better . The link you have his not only expensive but IS based so subject to VAT and duty . It will make no difference. Of course you won't believe me over what the salesman says. But it's your money. Martin ****Admin edit***
Insert A load of geriatric Italian shoe makers
This is well documented and researched subject which is very relvant to ALL signal integrity planning utterly zero question its physics dear boy.
I have zero connection with either Bodnar or Pasternack other than I use their products. In the lab I have over 30 impedence adapters for many variations 30/50/76/85/100/100/120/600 Ohms etc including some of those 'F' types adapters Oli has shown above and that is by no means a labs standard reference. The pasternack is a decent quality does what it says on the tin device it works no question. This will be the thif time I will conduct this experiment for yougive me a couple of hours but I am going to lay this to rest once and for all
***Little admin edit applied.
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Post by stevew on Mar 27, 2023 8:53:19 GMT
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Post by bencat on Mar 27, 2023 10:41:12 GMT
Sadly looked again at the Pasternack site and the cheapest shipping is $165 with an additional plus about $50 VAT and $85 duty . S379 for one . Now I have enough trust in Tony to say this will most likely work and work well but the cost is well over the cost of the clock itself and will the better matching add up to that sort of uplift in sound quality ? Not sure and no real way to try before you buy so at this point will have to file it away .
But and this probably proves to anyone that reallu understands this I ask the same question . I have both a 50 ohm BNC cable and a 75 ohm BNC cable . So is there a techncial preference for which to use ? Is it better to have a match at the sending or the receiving end ? Just to be clear I will be trying both myself and see if there is any difference but would just like to know if there is an accepted best practice .
Another thought has come to me my brother Joe lives in the US I could pay for this in the US and send to him then get him to post it to me as a gift which would at least be much cheaper .
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Post by bencat on Mar 28, 2023 9:13:44 GMT
Sorry about this as this thread has been seperated not sure were to put this but will make it here . So as I mentioned I contacted Leo Bodnar asking if they could offer a 75 ohm clock that was more suited to audio . The response was not a no but that they had not sold many clocks to the audio community so they were not sure the demand was there . Well Tony says he has put quite a few people on to this clock like me they may well not be letting LB know they will be using this clock for audio but a 75 ohm one would be better . So now we have a stand off no new clock without being sure they will sell no demand of no one knows it is possible . Not sure what can be done here but any suggestions would be great .
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Post by misterc on Mar 28, 2023 9:54:44 GMT
Thumbs up to Alan, I completely forgot about this so I only ever used it with a 75 Ohm or an impedance matcher so there you go good thinking Al
You can remove this jumper inside the MC3+ try the 50 Ohm straight first
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