Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 24, 2023 9:52:41 GMT
Arke Is there anything in the Troels lineup that would tick the boxes? Low cost, easy build, great performance?
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Jan 24, 2023 10:03:04 GMT
Dwain, what is it about your current speakers that's making you want to upgrade? If you have concerns that your next speakers might have a bass response that's at odds with your room, it might be worth trying a subwoofer. This will give you a degree of control bass-wise. Not only that it will often have a beneficial effect on the overall sound of your speakers.
I live in Chorley, so only about 40 minutes from you.
I'm happy to lend you a sub (BK XLS 200 DF), which you can play around with (no rush to return it). Although, because the driver fires downwards we would probably have to stick a slab of something under it.
Might be worth a try, and these subs can be had fairly cheap secondhand.
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Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,259
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Post by Arke on Jan 24, 2023 10:10:44 GMT
Arke Is there anything in the Troels lineup that would tick the boxes? Low cost, easy build, great performance? These are very similar to the ARKE Duos (Duos have slightly better tweeter and upgraded XO components) : www.troelsgravesen.dk/Revelator-4R.htm (kit is about £600 inc. VAT and delivery etc.) Cabinet build time and materials are additional. I have tested the Duos (essentially the Revelator 4Rs) against speakers up to £5k and not heard anything better (IMO) yet. The QAcoustics Concept Q500s were more weighty (Although a very 'soft' weighty) in their presentation, but I thought the Troels 10 litre standmounts were better at everything else. Also tested against PMC Twenty5 22i and the PMCs lacked resolution and bass control. Also, tested against QAcoustics Concept Q300s - Troels speakers had much better resolution, transparency and bass depth/control IMO. This would be good as a slightly larger and better VFM option: www.troelsgravesen.dk/DiscoveryW18.htm (kit is about £500 inc. VAT and delivery etc.) 7" bass driver and similar tweeter. Probably a more weighty bass, but probably won't be as good for midrange. NOTE: These are just my views for information. I do not gain anything financially if someone buys a Troels/Jantzen kit. Happy to demo my (Troels based) speakers and I am NOT expecting any cabinet build commissions. Dwain may well be interested in building his own. |
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Post by dwaindibly on Jan 24, 2023 10:29:31 GMT
Dwain, what is it about your current speakers that's making you want to upgrade? If you have concerns that your next speakers might have a bass response that's at odds with your room, it might be worth trying a subwoofer. This will give you a degree of control bass-wise. Not only that it will often have a beneficial effect on the overall sound of your speakers. I live in Chorley, so only about 40 minutes from you. I'm happy to lend you a sub (BK XLS 200 DF), which you can play around with (no rush to return it). Although, because the driver fires downwards we would probably have to stick a slab of something under it. Might be worth a try, and these subs can be had fairly cheap secondhand. The speakers I have sound bright and get annoying after a while the bass needs to go lower but sounds fine I find I'm having to crank up the volume for them to sound better but then they shout at me !! |
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Post by firebottle on Jan 24, 2023 10:41:56 GMT
You are definitely getting reflection from the sloping ceiling.
As a little experiment bring the speakers in front of the centre furniture but a fair bit closer together to reduce the ceiling reflection, then see how that sounds.
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Post by dwaindibly on Jan 24, 2023 11:52:51 GMT
That was the next bit of room treatment I was going to deal with but that's a good idea I'll try that just to see if there's a difference 👍
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Post by lurch on Jan 24, 2023 12:04:02 GMT
I would say in your current situation, get out to dealers with YOUR amp and have a listen, if the dealers up for you demoing at home then bonus. If not but your happy with the sound then look for used. This is, one of the reasons, I, mentioned Q Acoustics 3000 series as you can listen in dealers but find good deals online new or used, and with online purchases you have a right to return under details stance selling regs. Besides QAs another stand mount that punches above its price point and isn't bright to my ears is the Warfdale Diamond 9/9.1 they're also front ported.
The bonus here to my mind is that once you have some really good budget speakers that your happy with, then you can sit back and enjoy them for an extended period whilst you save for that big jump in SQ via an amp & speakers that a decent chunk of change can provide. But sticking with a sound that does your head in could force you into a wrong move just for the sake of it.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Jan 24, 2023 15:59:04 GMT
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Post by dwaindibly on Jan 24, 2023 16:04:21 GMT
I would say in your current situation, get out to dealers with YOUR amp and have a listen, if the dealers up for you demoing at home then bonus. If not but your happy with the sound then look for used. This is, one of the reasons, I, mentioned Q Acoustics 3000 series as you can listen in dealers but find good deals online new or used, and with online purchases you have a right to return under details stance selling regs. Besides QAs another stand mount that punches above its price point and isn't bright to my ears is the Warfdale Diamond 9/9.1 they're also front ported. The bonus here to my mind is that once you have some really good budget speakers that your happy with, then you can sit back and enjoy them for an extended period whilst you save for that big jump in SQ via an amp & speakers that a decent chunk of change can provide. But sticking with a sound that does your head in could force you into a wrong move just for the sake of it. That was my plan until i got things set up properly I'm just not happy with the sound!! I need to do a bit more with room acoustics so after that I'll make a decision 300 quid is dooable intime for summer it will give me time to mess about and create a shortlist and maybe listen to some speakers and hear what a good system should sound like as I have no reference point!! |
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Post by lurch on Jan 24, 2023 16:51:51 GMT
With reference to listening to a good system, there are a few of the boys up near your neck of the woods, I'm sure they'd be happy to have you visit for a listen. Andrew bencat is in Aintree and he would probably help out? As would those say within an hours drive. Would also be worth sticking October 29th in your diary and coming along to the Wam show where you'd get to hear 30+ real world systems exhibited by their owners. Everything from retro & budget through to hi-end. This year I will be taking my 2nd system (Garrard 401, 80s Cambridge C50/A50, Mk1 Marantz CD63SE and kef 104ab) the tt owes me £900, amps I bought new in 87 for £398 so owes me nothing, the cdp cost me £70 & speakers £102 so a cheap system in the scheme of things but don't sound cheap.😁 At the end of the day it's not the ££s you spend but how you spend them, sinergy is the key. Whilst my main rig has cost me circa £20k (95% used) I could live quite happily with my 2nd system. If you had a listen to both rigs you would definitely wonder why system 1 was £18.5k dearer, yes it is better, more richness, nuance and detail, but the cost difference definitely demonstrates the madness that is this hobby. Circa £150 on some V good budget speakers like the QAs, would then let you relax & spend a year/18 months saving for the big leap, £1,000 - £1,200 should be sufficient to give you a meaningful uplift in SQ that will keep you happy for a good few years if spent wisely. |
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Post by bencat on Jan 24, 2023 17:35:19 GMT
As Lurch says if you want to come over and hear my system your more than welcome but Mine is really nothing like your system . I would also note that I do not do any room treatments as they would not go down well with my wife . I have used some very high quality digital room treatment DIRAC Live and this is used in both my other active systems . Recently I removed the MiniDSP DDRC 22D from my main system and it now sounds better so I have that going spare and if you wanted to give it a try then let me know PM me.
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Post by dwaindibly on Jan 24, 2023 21:19:17 GMT
It's a slack day at work and I got bored so here's a short list all from richer They all go lower than what I have and are a bit easier to drive the q acoustics are the favourite followed by the elac I threw in the monitors coz they look nice and go quite low all under 300 quid and readily available I'll demo them before buying and before I have the funds so I'm not tempted to buy them without some thinking time  |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 26, 2023 19:23:33 GMT
It's a slack day at work and I got bored so here's a short list all from richer They all go lower than what I have and are a bit easier to drive the q acoustics are the favourite followed by the elac I threw in the monitors coz they look nice and go quite low all under 300 quid and readily available I'll demo them before buying and before I have the funds so I'm not tempted to buy them without some thinking time I didn't want to make a recommendation, but seeing the horrors that you have linked to etc, I had to point these out. Far better than anything you've linked to: pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/kef-ls50-excellent-boxed.276390/ |
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Post by robbiegong on Jan 26, 2023 20:50:36 GMT
It's a slack day at work and I got bored so here's a short list all from richer They all go lower than what I have and are a bit easier to drive the q acoustics are the favourite followed by the elac I threw in the monitors coz they look nice and go quite low all under 300 quid and readily available I'll demo them before buying and before I have the funds so I'm not tempted to buy them without some thinking time I didn't want to make a recommendation, but seeing the horrors that you have linked to etc, I had to point these out. Far better than anything you've linked to: pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/kef-ls50-excellent-boxed.276390/ - I'd trust him Dwain |
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Post by macca on Jan 26, 2023 21:07:17 GMT
I would not get the LS50. Tough load, insensitive, FR is a bit wonky.
The Elac is actually a better speaker - on paper anyway. I've had a listen to the KEFs, they are not bad but did not impress in any way. Just another small speaker with a bit of a bass hump.
But I've not tried the Elac. Suspect from the measurements the Elac will be a bit bright but otherwise fine.
There will be something better come up.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Jan 26, 2023 21:54:26 GMT
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 26, 2023 23:00:42 GMT
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Post by macca on Jan 27, 2023 7:00:35 GMT
No idea, never heard them or of them, Ruark Templars would be a good option for that room though. |
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Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,259
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Post by Arke on Jan 27, 2023 7:25:46 GMT
They'd be a good buy. The mid bass units are very good. |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 27, 2023 9:05:51 GMT
They'd be a good buy. The mid bass units are very good. I thought you may approve. |
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Post by lurch on Jan 27, 2023 9:40:57 GMT
Must admit, for where he is now I still feel he'd be better of looking at/auditioning at dealers <£250 (new) speakers that can, be picked up for <£150 used, that are easy to sell on. This would allow the removal of the offending current speakers, and give good sound for 12 - 18 months whilst saving for the big leap. Hence why I mentioned QA.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 27, 2023 9:49:25 GMT
Must admit, for where he is now I still feel he'd be better of looking at/auditioning at dealers <£250 (new) speakers that can, be picked up for <£150 used, that are easy to sell on. This would allow the removal of the offending current speakers, and give good sound for 12 - 18 months whilst saving for the big leap. Hence why I mentioned QA. I disagree He'd be auditioning speakers that have 1/4 of the purchase price in materials with the rest going to profit margins. The used market has some very good speakers that will represent greater performance at a lower cost. Those drivers in the Ruark are the same (I think) or at least that Jason uses in his Arke Duos, and they would stun you to listen to, believe me. The Ruarks were nearly £2k new IIRC and they make very respectable speakers. I've had many a pair. Certainly worth £350 of anyone's money and guaranteed improvement on what he has now. I'd take them over anything linked so far. |
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Arke
Moderator
Posts: 1,259
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Post by Arke on Jan 27, 2023 17:07:52 GMT
Must admit, for where he is now I still feel he'd be better of looking at/auditioning at dealers <£250 (new) speakers that can, be picked up for <£150 used, that are easy to sell on. This would allow the removal of the offending current speakers, and give good sound for 12 - 18 months whilst saving for the big leap. Hence why I mentioned QA. I disagree He'd be auditioning speakers that have 1/4 of the purchase price in materials with the rest going to profit margins. The used market has some very good speakers that will represent greater performance at a lower cost. Those drivers in the Ruark are the same (I think) or at least that Jason uses in his Arke Duos, and they would stun you to listen to, believe me. The Ruarks were nearly £2k new IIRC and they make very respectable speakers. I've had many a pair. Certainly worth £350 of anyone's money and guaranteed improvement on what he has now. I'd take them over anything linked so far. About 1/10 of price of retail speakers is on parts/materials. |
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Post by dwaindibly on Jan 29, 2023 10:37:47 GMT
Sooooo I've done lots more listening and been moving the speakers around that only seemed to affect the bass I'm sick of listening to Adele rolling in the deep😣😣 what I have found is after some googling on listening volume I think I'm listening too loud (85db 😕)at 7ft measured with a phone app but that seems to be the sweet spot for the sound I like but then gives me a headache after a while lol!!! so I'm now looking at my amp the A1 MK3 it's rated at 6 to 16 ohm not sure on wattage it could be anywhere from 25 to 35 watts my speakers are 6 ohm 100w 85 dB sensitivity. I have the volume set around 11 o'clock on the dial and the volume on the wiim source set at around 3 quarters up the bar it seems I have to turn the volume up to that level to get the speakers moving at lower levels they don't sound as good!!! the amp is old and it was very cheap so I was wondering if the amp just ain't powerful enough or it's worn out ?
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Post by macca on Jan 29, 2023 11:18:45 GMT
to play at the level with those speakers you will need 1 watt continuous from the amplifier.
(speaker 85 db for 1 watt, you have two speakers so 88sB for 1 watt, subtract 3 dB for distance from speaker to you).
But depending on the music you might need as much as 20dB headroom for dynamic peaks
88dB will need 2 watts, 91db 4 watts, 94dB 8 watts. 97dB 16 watts, 100dB 32 watts.
It's possible you are clipping the amp on peaks, but that's not going to happen often. I think you need more room treatment or a more refined speaker. Or both.
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Post by bencat on Jan 29, 2023 11:49:05 GMT
I would add again I think it would be of some benefit to come and listen to another system even one that is miles away from your set up that will give you an idea f what different systems can do and how they sound in a different room . Not all of us have the domestic choice of using room treatments and frankly for me at least i would not want to sit in a room with the panels I have seen used I think I would rather get the music right in a pleasant and comfortable space .
I will ask again if you want to you are welcome to come over and have a listen to my main system with music that you are familiar with and also lots that you may not have heard . It is at this moment sounding as good as i have ever achieved in this room so I am not worried about any one else hearing it . I know that it has been constructed and sculpted to suit me but I also know that from doing Wam Shows lots of others see the quality of what I have done and like it as well .
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Jan 29, 2023 12:02:23 GMT
I would add again I think it would be of some benefit to come and listen to another system even one that is miles away from your set up that will give you an idea f what different systems can do and how they sound in a different room . Not all of us have the domestic choice of using room treatments and frankly for me at least i would not want to sit in a room with the panels I have seen used I think I would rather get the music right in a pleasant and comfortable space . I will ask again if you want to you are welcome to come over and have a listen to my main system with music that you are familiar with and also lots that you may not have heard . It is at this moment sounding as good as i have ever achieved in this room so I am not worried about any one else hearing it . I know that it has been constructed and sculpted to suit me but I also know that from doing Wam Shows lots of others see the quality of what I have done and like it as well . Dwain, from seeing Andrew at last year's Wam show I can tell you he's a top bloke, and you could learn a lot from him. I'd take him up on his offer - getting out to see and hear some 'real world' set ups worth a hundred trips to hifi shops. |
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Post by bencat on Jan 29, 2023 14:28:21 GMT
Thanks for the kind words Pigmy Pony most of it is just bravado on my part I am stumbling along like most on here , but every now and then I do get it right .
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Jan 29, 2023 17:32:16 GMT
Thanks for the kind words Pigmy Pony most of it is just bravado on my part I am stumbling along like most on here , but every now and then I do get it right . Hence those two little words under your avatar  For many of us on here, our hifi 'journey' goes back to a time when there were no mobile phones, no forums, no internet... never been easier than it is today to communicate with fellow enthusiasts, and meet up to exchange ideas and information. Shame not to take advantage of it. |
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Post by lurch on Feb 8, 2023 4:38:21 GMT
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- I'd trust him Dwain 
