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Post by pete on Jan 22, 2023 23:00:15 GMT
Having the privilege of listening to Oliver's speakers I only have to agree that his Troels speakers are completely exceptional to my ears
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Post by macca on Jan 23, 2023 9:39:00 GMT
So you think i should up my budget? I've had a slack day at work today so I've done lots of research and now have 2 contenders within my budget Q acoustics 3030i Elac debut B6.2 Unless I can get better used for the same price ? Think I'm after a more neutral sound maybe. I do like the tight clean bass I get from the missions tho Time to go bother the staff at my local richer sounds and do some overtime I think The B6.2 is not a bad speaker especially for the price. But I would take Ollie's advice, save up for a bit and get something that will give a big jump up in SQ. Don't be tempted to bounce from one budget speaker to another. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jan 23, 2023 10:28:47 GMT
So you think i should up my budget? I've had a slack day at work today so I've done lots of research and now have 2 contenders within my budget Q acoustics 3030i Elac debut B6.2 Unless I can get better used for the same price ? Think I'm after a more neutral sound maybe. I do like the tight clean bass I get from the missions tho Time to go bother the staff at my local richer sounds and do some overtime I think The B6.2 is not a bad speaker especially for the price. But I would take Ollie's advice, save up for a bit and get something that will give a big jump up in SQ. Don't be tempted to bounce from one budget speaker to another. I have to agree with Oli and Martin. Either save up for longer and buy a very good speaker to build your system around, or you'll be probably be upgrading over and over again. Continuous upgrading will be expensive and frustrating. You're welcome to come and hear my standmount speakers. I realise they are well over budget, and I am not expecting a sale. Bring your speakers and you can see what difference the speakers can make. It may be instructive and help you to formulate a plan. |
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Post by stevew on Jan 23, 2023 10:49:55 GMT
So you think i should up my budget? I've had a slack day at work today so I've done lots of research and now have 2 contenders within my budget Q acoustics 3030i Elac debut B6.2 Unless I can get better used for the same price ? Think I'm after a more neutral sound maybe. I do like the tight clean bass I get from the missions tho Time to go bother the staff at my local richer sounds and do some overtime I think One thing I have learned, right at the very end of my hifi journey, was that I should have spent as much as I possibly could on the best speakers I could find. I have my first pair of Troels speakers, and had I known about them 10 years ago, I'd have saved a great deal of bloody effort. Probably would have saved me a fortune in equipment too. Yeah.. what he said. Oliver has made such an important point here. Budgets are such a tricky balancing act, especially in the current circumstances for most people. However I too wish I knew then what I know now!! |
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Post by dwaindibly on Jan 23, 2023 10:53:55 GMT
I totally understand and will go with that advice as I'd rather buy quality and buy once !! but how much are we talking for a really good speaker that's not to large in size ?
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Post by macca on Jan 23, 2023 11:04:39 GMT
I totally understand and will go with that advice as I'd rather buy quality and buy once !! but how much are we talking for a really good speaker that's not to large in size ? second hand say £500. New - say a grand or thereabouts. Obviously that's a massive generalisation, bargains do come up on forums (not so often on ebay) so you could potentially get something really good for less. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 23, 2023 11:18:19 GMT
I totally understand and will go with that advice as I'd rather buy quality and buy once !! but how much are we talking for a really good speaker that's not to large in size ? Price is irrelevant. You can spend what you want to on speakers, but if they don't work in your room you will have wasted your money. Factors to consider are: 1 - Port tuning. You need to have a rough idea of what room modes exist in your listening space. Arke can help you with a simple calculation. The reason this matters is because if you buy a speaker (like i did) that has a port tuning that excites your particular room modes, you will have all sorts of LF issues that just become insurmountable. The sound becomes swamped and you lose soundsgtage, imaging and transparency. 2 - Measurements. No, they will not tell you how the speaker sounds, but they will tell you if the overall design has any issues. HF roll off, how low the speakers can go and whether the speaker has a ragged or choppy response, is all very useful information. Rule anything out with a choppy response and excessive roll offs. I am sure Macca and Rocklard will happily give measurements the once over and advise. 3 - Ignore opinion. Yes, a controversial opinion in itself, but seriously....speakers are a uniquely personal taste. You need to try and have a listen to what's available and ,more importantly, what proper speakers are capable of. Take Jason up on his offer to have a listen to his Arke Duos, compare them to what you have. Then you will have a place to set your bar. You are welcome to come and have a listen to the speakers here too, again, it just helps you hear what's available in terms of performance. 4 - Identify the speakers you want and save up for them. Do not cut this corner or you will have to do the saving twice. |
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Post by pete on Jan 23, 2023 11:35:32 GMT
I totally understand and will go with that advice as I'd rather buy quality and buy once !! but how much are we talking for a really good speaker that's not to large in size ? Price is irrelevant. You can spend what you want to on speakers, but if they don't work in your room you will have wasted your money. Factors to consider are: 1 - Port tuning. You need to have a rough idea of what room modes exist in your listening space. Arke can help you with a simple calculation. The reason this matters is because if you buy a speaker (like i did) that has a port tuning that excites your particular room modes, you will have all sorts of LF issues that just become insurmountable. The sound becomes swamped and you lose soundsgtage, imaging and transparency. 2 - Measurements. No, they will not tell you how the speaker sounds, but they will tell you if the overall design has any issues. HF roll off, how low the speakers can go and whether the speaker has a ragged or choppy response, is all very useful information. Rule anything out with a choppy response and excessive roll offs. I am sure Macca and Rocklard will happily give measurements the once over and advise. 3 - Ignore opinion. Yes, a controversial opinion in itself, but seriously....speakers are a uniquely personal taste. You need to try and have a listen to what's available and ,more importantly, what proper speakers are capable of. Take Jason up on his offer to have a listen to his Arke Duos, compare them to what you have. Then you will have a place to set your bar. You are welcome to come and have a listen to the speakers here too, again, it just helps you hear what's available in terms of performance. 4 - Identify the speakers you want and save up for them. Do not cut this corner or you will have to do the saving twice. Excellent advice here from Oliver. Like others I have gone through upgrading, chopping and changing, and have spent loads of time and cash doing it. It has been an enjoyable journey, but a journey with too many mistakes. I have eventually realised that the key to a great system is great speakers, and speakers that suit your room and you. By taking your time, listening to what is on offer and what you appreciate as great sounding, is time very well spent. I appreciate it may seem a hassle, but doing a journey of a couple of hours is well worth it to identify what you really want, and what you don't! I think Arke offer is a great one. Lots on here really rate his small speakers, it would be a great chance to hear what small speakers can do. Always great to spend time with a fellow enthusiast too! |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jan 23, 2023 11:36:45 GMT
I totally understand and will go with that advice as I'd rather buy quality and buy once !! but how much are we talking for a really good speaker that's not to large in size ? Price is irrelevant. You can spend what you want to on speakers, but if they don't work in your room you will have wasted your money. Factors to consider are: 1 - Port tuning. You need to have a rough idea of what room modes exist in your listening space. Arke can help you with a simple calculation. The reason this matters is because if you buy a speaker (like i did) that has a port tuning that excites your particular room modes, you will have all sorts of LF issues that just become insurmountable. The sound becomes swamped and you lose soundsgtage, imaging and transparency. 2 - Measurements. No, they will not tell you how the speaker sounds, but they will tell you if the overall design has any issues. HF roll off, how low the speakers can go and whether the speaker has a ragged or choppy response, is all very useful information. Rule anything out with a choppy response and excessive roll offs. I am sure Macca and Rocklard will happily give measurements the once over and advise. 3 - Ignore opinion. Yes, a controversial opinion in itself, but seriously....speakers are a uniquely personal taste. You need to try and have a listen to what's available and ,more importantly, what proper speakers are capable of. Take Jason up on his offer to have a listen to his Arke Duos, compare them to what you have. Then you will have a place to set your bar. You are welcome to come and have a listen to the speakers here too, again, it just helps you hear what's available in terms of performance. 4 - Identify the speakers you want and save up for them. Do not cut this corner or you will have to do the saving twice. All great points from Oli. 1) Yes, ports can excite rooms. This has to be used with a little caution as some speakers just have poor low frequency control anyway. Measurements and knowledge of room acoustics will only take you so far. Ultimately a home demo is always best, as Oli will certainly agree. 2) These definitely help, but use with caution unless you really understand what they are saying. 3) Definitely, It is very subjective. Listen to speakers at various price points and hear the differences yourself. I can demo some Troels speakers that would cost around £1500-1800 new and £8000-£10000 new - they are vastly different. and should be. 4) Agreed. don't rush into it. most of my bad hifi decisions were because I rushed. The most budget friendly Troels speakers are around £500 plus cabinets (Discovery 18W) - these will easily compete with retail speakers around £2000-3000. Troels speakers come up used very often and are usually a bargain. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 23, 2023 11:42:15 GMT
Price is irrelevant. You can spend what you want to on speakers, but if they don't work in your room you will have wasted your money. Factors to consider are: 1 - Port tuning. You need to have a rough idea of what room modes exist in your listening space. Arke can help you with a simple calculation. The reason this matters is because if you buy a speaker (like i did) that has a port tuning that excites your particular room modes, you will have all sorts of LF issues that just become insurmountable. The sound becomes swamped and you lose soundsgtage, imaging and transparency. 2 - Measurements. No, they will not tell you how the speaker sounds, but they will tell you if the overall design has any issues. HF roll off, how low the speakers can go and whether the speaker has a ragged or choppy response, is all very useful information. Rule anything out with a choppy response and excessive roll offs. I am sure Macca and Rocklard will happily give measurements the once over and advise. 3 - Ignore opinion. Yes, a controversial opinion in itself, but seriously....speakers are a uniquely personal taste. You need to try and have a listen to what's available and ,more importantly, what proper speakers are capable of. Take Jason up on his offer to have a listen to his Arke Duos, compare them to what you have. Then you will have a place to set your bar. You are welcome to come and have a listen to the speakers here too, again, it just helps you hear what's available in terms of performance. 4 - Identify the speakers you want and save up for them. Do not cut this corner or you will have to do the saving twice. All great points from Oli. 1) Yes, ports can excite rooms. This has to be used with a little caution as some speakers just have poor low frequency control anyway. Measurements and knowledge of room acoustics will only take you so far. Ultimately a home demo is always best, as Oli will certainly agree. 2) These definitely help, but use with caution unless you really understand what they are saying. 3) Definitely, It is very subjective. Listen to speakers at various price points and hear the differences yourself. I can demo some Troels speakers that would cost around £1500-1800 new and £8000-£10000 new - they are vastly different. and should be. 4) Agreed. don't rush into it. most of my bad hifi decisions were because I rushed. The most budget friendly Troels speakers are around £500 plus cabinets (Discovery 18W) - these will easily compete with retail speakers around £2000-3000. Troels speakers come up used very often and are usually a bargain. I did link to a pair that I think would work, but you'd have to confirm |
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Post by macca on Jan 23, 2023 12:01:41 GMT
I totally understand and will go with that advice as I'd rather buy quality and buy once !! but how much are we talking for a really good speaker that's not to large in size ? Price is irrelevant. You can spend what you want to on speakers, but if they don't work in your room you will have wasted your money. Factors to consider are: 1 - Port tuning. You need to have a rough idea of what room modes exist in your listening space. Arke can help you with a simple calculation. The reason this matters is because if you buy a speaker (like i did) that has a port tuning that excites your particular room modes, you will have all sorts of LF issues that just become insurmountable. The sound becomes swamped and you lose soundsgtage, imaging and transparency. 2 - Measurements. No, they will not tell you how the speaker sounds, but they will tell you if the overall design has any issues. HF roll off, how low the speakers can go and whether the speaker has a ragged or choppy response, is all very useful information. Rule anything out with a choppy response and excessive roll offs. I am sure Macca and Rocklard will happily give measurements the once over and advise. 3 - Ignore opinion. Yes, a controversial opinion in itself, but seriously....speakers are a uniquely personal taste. You need to try and have a listen to what's available and ,more importantly, what proper speakers are capable of. Take Jason up on his offer to have a listen to his Arke Duos, compare them to what you have. Then you will have a place to set your bar. You are welcome to come and have a listen to the speakers here too, again, it just helps you hear what's available in terms of performance. 4 - Identify the speakers you want and save up for them. Do not cut this corner or you will have to do the saving twice. '3' is a definite - ignore subjective opinions and reviews like the plague! Rooms are different, tastes and expectations are different, a lot of people on forums will just recommend what they are using even if they are a piece of junk, and magazine and internet reviewers are just salesmen in disguise. And usually have close to zero knowledge. I would add '5' - don't buy a speaker that is a difficult load for the amplifier otherwise you'll have to buy a more expensive amplifier too. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jan 23, 2023 12:05:55 GMT
All great points from Oli. 1) Yes, ports can excite rooms. This has to be used with a little caution as some speakers just have poor low frequency control anyway. Measurements and knowledge of room acoustics will only take you so far. Ultimately a home demo is always best, as Oli will certainly agree. 2) These definitely help, but use with caution unless you really understand what they are saying. 3) Definitely, It is very subjective. Listen to speakers at various price points and hear the differences yourself. I can demo some Troels speakers that would cost around £1500-1800 new and £8000-£10000 new - they are vastly different. and should be. 4) Agreed. don't rush into it. most of my bad hifi decisions were because I rushed. The most budget friendly Troels speakers are around £500 plus cabinets (Discovery 18W) - these will easily compete with retail speakers around £2000-3000. Troels speakers come up used very often and are usually a bargain. I did link to a pair that I think would work, but you'd have to confirm Hard to know for sure. I think Dwain said they are too big |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 23, 2023 12:06:10 GMT
Price is irrelevant. You can spend what you want to on speakers, but if they don't work in your room you will have wasted your money. Factors to consider are: 1 - Port tuning. You need to have a rough idea of what room modes exist in your listening space. Arke can help you with a simple calculation. The reason this matters is because if you buy a speaker (like i did) that has a port tuning that excites your particular room modes, you will have all sorts of LF issues that just become insurmountable. The sound becomes swamped and you lose soundsgtage, imaging and transparency. 2 - Measurements. No, they will not tell you how the speaker sounds, but they will tell you if the overall design has any issues. HF roll off, how low the speakers can go and whether the speaker has a ragged or choppy response, is all very useful information. Rule anything out with a choppy response and excessive roll offs. I am sure Macca and Rocklard will happily give measurements the once over and advise. 3 - Ignore opinion. Yes, a controversial opinion in itself, but seriously....speakers are a uniquely personal taste. You need to try and have a listen to what's available and ,more importantly, what proper speakers are capable of. Take Jason up on his offer to have a listen to his Arke Duos, compare them to what you have. Then you will have a place to set your bar. You are welcome to come and have a listen to the speakers here too, again, it just helps you hear what's available in terms of performance. 4 - Identify the speakers you want and save up for them. Do not cut this corner or you will have to do the saving twice. '3' is a definite - ignore subjective opinions and reviews like the plague! Rooms are different, tastes and expectations are different, a lot of people on forums will just recommend what they are using even if they are a piece of junk, and magazine and internet reviewers are just salesmen in disguise. And usually have close to zero knowledge. I would add '5' - don't buy a speaker that is a difficult load for the amplifier otherwise you'll have to buy a more expensive amplifier too. Yeah, amp compatibility is a great point. |
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Post by macca on Jan 23, 2023 12:19:20 GMT
I did link to a pair that I think would work, but you'd have to confirm Hard to know for sure. I think Dwain said they are too big bass might be a bit excessive from them in that small room. Doubt they will like a close to boundaries position either. Stupid bargain though, if I were near to Southampton I doubt I would be able to resist. |
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Post by dwaindibly on Jan 23, 2023 12:48:36 GMT
£500 sounds good to me for used they do need to be on the small side tho due to room dimensions (apex loft )8ft wide x 18ft long 6ft high to top of apex the less room around them they need the better
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optical
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Post by optical on Jan 23, 2023 12:56:31 GMT
I've got to say, I don't know that much about speakers (certainly compared to the general attendees in this thread at least) but these look absolutely superb (and pretty much perfect for the OP's needs). Great recommendation Oli. Great advice on the thread so far too chaps. |
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Post by macca on Jan 23, 2023 13:53:32 GMT
Got to factor in the cost of driving from Manchester to Southampton and back to get them as he's not shipping. Maybe run to a hundred quid in fuel. Or a thousand quid if you drive a Dodge Charger or something.
Room is 18' long so you could certainly get them a couple of feet out from the back wall without them getting too close to where you're sat. I think that would be sufficient. They won't be bass monsters.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 23, 2023 14:01:14 GMT
Got to factor in the cost of driving from Manchester to Southampton and back to get them as he's not shipping. Maybe run to a hundred quid in fuel. Or a thousand quid if you drive a Dodge Charger or something. Room is 18' long so you could certainly get them a couple of feet out from the back wall without them getting too close to where you're sat. I think that would be sufficient. They won't be bass monsters. Also front ported, which helps with positioning. |
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Post by macca on Jan 23, 2023 14:21:05 GMT
damn it this has got me looking at speakers on ebay now. Always wanted a go on these www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394424967578?And these www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195557489937?These JPW www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403806327883?5 were shockingly good for the money back in the day, I think he's asking too much but I'm not the only one who liked them, they've got a bit of a cult following now. Don't know how they would stack up to the modern Missions though All other JPW speakers I've owned or heard I thought were a bit rubbish. Especially the 'Mini Monitor' which was shockingly bad. |
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optical
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Post by optical on Jan 23, 2023 14:25:11 GMT
damn it this has got me looking at speakers on ebay now. Always wanted a go on these www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394424967578?And these www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195557489937?These JPW www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403806327883?5 were shockingly good for the money back in the day, I think he's asking too much but I'm not the only one who liked them, they've got a bit of a cult following now. Don't know how they would stack up to the modern Missions though All other JPW speakers I've owned or heard I thought were a bit rubbish. Especially the 'Mini Monitor' which was shockingly bad. I've also been looking at those first JBL ones . . . . haha. They are not to be ignored. They would be serious I feel, very serious indeed . . . . |
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Post by macca on Jan 23, 2023 14:41:12 GMT
damn it this has got me looking at speakers on ebay now. Always wanted a go on these www.ebay.co.uk/itm/394424967578?And these www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195557489937?These JPW www.ebay.co.uk/itm/403806327883?5 were shockingly good for the money back in the day, I think he's asking too much but I'm not the only one who liked them, they've got a bit of a cult following now. Don't know how they would stack up to the modern Missions though All other JPW speakers I've owned or heard I thought were a bit rubbish. Especially the 'Mini Monitor' which was shockingly bad. I've also been looking at those first JBL ones . . . . haha. They are not to be ignored. They would be serious I feel, very serious indeed . . . . They are on the 'Vintage Knob' www.thevintageknob.org/jbl-Ti5000.html If he was close I'd probably have to do it. Even though I've no room for more speakers. 55 kilo each I would not trust shipping. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jan 23, 2023 16:15:12 GMT
I won't go into it in detail on this thread, but I shall be writing some posts on popular speaker misconceptions soon.
In brief, big speakers with big drivers and rear ports aren't necessarily bad in relatively small rooms. My room is 18ft long and 10ft wide. The Vaders/CNO4s are around 90 litre volume and have 8" and 12" bass drivers. They have 2 rear ports which are about 1 foot off the wall. Even without any room correction they have far superior bass control and soundstage than any speaker I've ever had in there. The only bass boom is due to a room mode at 32Hz, which the 10 litre standmounts and 35 litre Ektas excite just as much, if not more.
Happy to demo this to people.
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Post by robbiegong on Jan 23, 2023 16:29:23 GMT
I've also been looking at those first JBL ones . . . . haha. They are not to be ignored. They would be serious I feel, very serious indeed . . . . They are on the 'Vintage Knob' www.thevintageknob.org/jbl-Ti5000.html If he was close I'd probably have to do it. Even though I've no room for more speakers. 55 kilo each I would not trust shipping. Gosh Macca, Indeed, The JBL Ti5000 ! The kind of speaker that makes me wish I had the space, because i would. |
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Post by macca on Jan 23, 2023 17:17:08 GMT
I won't go into it in detail on this thread, but I shall be writing some posts on popular speaker misconceptions soon. In brief, big speakers with big drivers and rear ports aren't necessarily bad in relatively small rooms. My room is 18ft long and 10ft wide. The Vaders/CNO4s are around 90 litre volume and have 8" and 12" bass drivers. They have 2 rear ports which are about 1 foot off the wall. Even without any room correction they have far superior bass control and soundstage than any speaker I've ever had in there. The only bass boom is due to a room mode at 32Hz, which the 10 litre standmounts and 35 litre Ektas excite just as much, if not more. Happy to demo this to people. yes very true I have some speakers here with 15 inch bass drivers, even up against a wall they will not boom or go deep with any real weight behind them, really need a sub in fact. They are designed to go against the wall. Have some Audiovectors with tiny little bass drivers, they go deeper than the Focals with two larger units. Big JBL and Tannoy with fifteens and they don't go that low either, maybe 35Hz with a tail wind. But you still see people saying '12 inch bass driver so they will have deep bass'. Really no correlation at all between driver size and bass depth. Put an 8 or even a 6 in a transmission line and you can get useful output at 20Hz. |
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Post by dwaindibly on Jan 23, 2023 20:25:09 GMT
Not sure how good they are but I'm always drawn to these kef R3s  |
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Arke
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Posts: 1,262
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Post by Arke on Jan 23, 2023 20:34:49 GMT
I won't go into it in detail on this thread, but I shall be writing some posts on popular speaker misconceptions soon. In brief, big speakers with big drivers and rear ports aren't necessarily bad in relatively small rooms. My room is 18ft long and 10ft wide. The Vaders/CNO4s are around 90 litre volume and have 8" and 12" bass drivers. They have 2 rear ports which are about 1 foot off the wall. Even without any room correction they have far superior bass control and soundstage than any speaker I've ever had in there. The only bass boom is due to a room mode at 32Hz, which the 10 litre standmounts and 35 litre Ektas excite just as much, if not more. Happy to demo this to people. yes very true I have some speakers here with 15 inch bass drivers, even up against a wall they will not boom or go deep with any real weight behind them, really need a sub in fact. They are designed to go against the wall. Have some Audiovectors with tiny little bass drivers, they go deeper than the Focals with two larger units. Big JBL and Tannoy with fifteens and they don't go that low either, maybe 35Hz with a tail wind. But you still see people saying '12 inch bass driver so they will have deep bass'. Really no correlation at all between driver size and bass depth. Put an 8 or even a 6 in a transmission line and you can get useful output at 20Hz. There are always exceptions to rules, but generally larger drivers can (with the appropriate design skill) go deeper. I will do a post on bass response specs soon as there is a lot of general misinformation and confusion around. |
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Post by dwaindibly on Jan 24, 2023 7:11:20 GMT
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jan 24, 2023 7:42:06 GMT
Macca mentioned Audiovectors. I wouldn't recommend buying used unless you can demo first. You may just up with a another (better sounding) bright speaker. |
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Post by dwaindibly on Jan 24, 2023 8:47:40 GMT
One thing I've learned is that I will definitely need to listen to any speaker I'm considering buying!! so I'll probably be buying new which leads me to my next question if I was to buy some speakers from say richer sounds after a demo then got them home set up with my kit and I didn't like them could I take them back ? I'm way off buying any at the moment I'm just trying to short list a few so I know what I want if the opportunity arises to have a listen or borrow or if a bargain pops up
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jan 24, 2023 8:54:45 GMT
One thing I've learned is that I will definitely need to listen to any speaker I'm considering buying!! so I'll probably be buying new which leads me to my next question if I was to buy some speakers from say richer sounds after a demo then got them home set up with my kit and I didn't like them could I take them back ? I'm way off buying any at the moment I'm just trying to short list a few so I know what I want if the opportunity arises to have a listen or borrow or if a bargain pops up Dealers vary with regards home demos - you'll just have to ask. Some people home demo and then may find the speaker used... |
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