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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2019 12:30:24 GMT
It's true, that did happen. I still think the efficacy of various interconnects varies depending on what kit you use them with though. With Krell/DCB1 combo using the Spotfire makes a significant contribution to sound quality. For me it's not about hearing a tambourine I'd never noticed before or any of that bollocks, it's more how relaxed the sound is on my ears/brain. If it is irritating me my brain lets me know, and if it is just right, likewise. It isn't a conscious decision that I make. But if I'm feeling like I want to switch the music off then I know summat isn't right and changing the interconnect can help with that sometimes. Theres definitely kit that benefitted from a bit of tuning and that was my experience when I was trying Klotz, Sommer and Mogami variations. I had a couple of amps that could sound quite lean. With the Klotz, the sound beefed up but that quite clearly indicated colouration which isnt what I wanted from cables. It explains why everyone has different opinions on cables. |
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Post by macca on Jul 5, 2019 14:33:31 GMT
yes - two wrongs making a right - or at least a subjectively better sound, even if it isn't accurate.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 5, 2019 14:42:33 GMT
Theres definitely kit that benefitted from a bit of tuning and that was my experience when I was trying Klotz, Sommer and Mogami variations. I had a couple of amps that could sound quite lean. With the Klotz, the sound beefed up but that quite clearly indicated colouration which isnt what I wanted from cables. It explains why everyone has different opinions on cables. I could argue the Klotz is more correct, especially with some months use - not many seriously top end wires appear not to have a leaner tone you know and on a lesser stereo, they can sound 'quieter' up top than the latest whizz-bang confection that's bettered by another in six months time... Going properly balanced puts all this bullshit to bed anyway and there's enough properly designed balanced products ( designed by people who know what they're doing with the tech rather than being scared of it and dissing it out of hand 'cos they couldn't make it work transparently) that all but remove cable questions. I gather many dac chipsets are inherently balanced on their outputs anyway, but could be wrong. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 5, 2019 14:55:27 GMT
I find the Klotz AC110 muffled with poor definition. It can sound okay in systems with lower resolution, but having heard it against a few others I wouldn’t have it in any system. I realise system compatibility will play a part though. In a system with say a Reba planet, Exposure X and Elas, I didn’t hear the limitations.
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Post by macca on Jul 5, 2019 15:55:47 GMT
How do balanced interconnects suddenly throw out all the cable questions? They still have to be made out of cable, which has properties etc.
Balanced connections are completely pointless unless everything is balanced and you need crazy long cable runs because it's a big studio or you live in a mansion andb want the kit separated by 50 foot for some bizarre reason.
The idea that there is some sort of intrinsic SQ benefit to be had is risible.
I was looking at buying a class D power amp but it only has balanced inputs and that puts me off. I hate the way manufacturers pander to know-nothing punters like that, but I suppose it's just good business. These days the less the punter knows the more money it seems they have to spend.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2019 17:28:20 GMT
Truth is, the "balanced input" usually has higher performance figures, understandably but the suggestion that cable makes no difference in a balanced configuration is just plain and simply incorrect.
A guy on AoS bought some cable off me, made in balanced configuration and put them up again Klotz, Mogami and a bunch of others. All made with the same Neutrik XLR plugs. The only identification was a number on each set so he knew what was what. He had multiple bakeoffs with friends who didn't know the identity of any of the cables.
Guess what, they all placed the Klotz last, blindly. Its veiled and has bloom In the midbass on every amp I tried BUT as I said, in some systems it can work in its favour.
I ran them for 12 months and after an initial opening of the soundstage, they didn't alter in the slightest. You could argue all you like about the Klotz being more "correct" because it's subjective, but I completely disagree.
The Spotfire won BTW, and he spent on another two pairs to complete his rig. This is a guy who designed his whole active Yamaha NS1000 amps and crossovers and uses the most accurate phonostage I've ever heard in the Aqvox.
He's a serious guy so had my cables lost, I'd have tried what beat them based on his opinion.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 5, 2019 17:47:59 GMT
I have no idea about balanced cables. It’s often been said they narrow differences but I have little experience.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2019 18:18:36 GMT
I have no idea about balanced cables. It’s often been said they narrow differences but I have little experience. They may do, but 90% of XLR cables have the same XLR plugs or very similar. I made a set for a guy with Xhadow plugs (I think) and they are pure silver. I'd wager that they would stand out. He certainly thought so and sent plugs for more. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 5, 2019 18:35:33 GMT
I have no idea about balanced cables. It’s often been said they narrow differences but I have little experience. They may do, but 90% of XLR cables have the same XLR plugs or very similar. I made a set for a guy with Xhadow plugs (I think) and they are pure silver. I'd wager that they would stand out. He certainly thought so and sent plugs for more. Makes sense to me, you taught me that Eichmann are the only show in town for Phono Plugs  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2019 19:02:33 GMT
They may do, but 90% of XLR cables have the same XLR plugs or very similar. I made a set for a guy with Xhadow plugs (I think) and they are pure silver. I'd wager that they would stand out. He certainly thought so and sent plugs for more. Makes sense to me, you taught me that Eichmann are the only show in town for Phono Plugs Yup, they are lol. |
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Post by macca on Jul 6, 2019 7:11:51 GMT
Truth is, the "balanced input" usually has higher performance figures, understandably but the suggestion that cable makes no difference in a balanced configuration is just plain and simply incorrect. A guy on AoS bought some cable off me, made in balanced configuration and put them up again Klotz, Mogami and a bunch of others. All made with the same Neutrik XLR plugs. The only identification was a number on each set so he knew what was what. He had multiple bakeoffs with friends who didn't know the identity of any of the cables. Guess what, they all placed the Klotz last, blindly. Its veiled and has bloom In the midbass on every amp I tried BUT as I said, in some systems it can work in its favour. I ran them for 12 months and after an initial opening of the soundstage, they didn't alter in the slightest. You could argue all you like about the Klotz being more "correct" because it's subjective, but I completely disagree. The Spotfire won BTW, and he spent on another two pairs to complete his rig. This is a guy who designed his whole active Yamaha NS1000 amps and crossovers and uses the most accurate phonostage I've ever heard in the Aqvox. He's a serious guy so had my cables lost, I'd have tried what beat them based on his opinion. Balanced will be louder, did he take that into account? I've not said the Klotz is more correct just that in that one application I preferred the sound with Klotz over that of Spotfire. Change the amp, that situation changed. It could be because the Klotz is not as good and is masking problems. I have no quarrel with that argument but there is really no way to verify that or not in any objective way. And the ability of the Klotz has nothing to do with balanced operation. Also isn't balanced slightly noisier than single ended, intrinsically? The point of balanced is to reject pickup of RF induced hum in very long runs, so in short runs there is no benefit. RD was absolutely correct about this, but then even a broken clock is right twice a day |
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Post by macca on Jul 6, 2019 7:21:32 GMT
I completely agree with your first sentence BTW. If cable construction and materials does affect sound quality, and I reckon it can, then of course it will matter even with balanced configuration.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2019 8:39:22 GMT
Truth is, the "balanced input" usually has higher performance figures, understandably but the suggestion that cable makes no difference in a balanced configuration is just plain and simply incorrect. A guy on AoS bought some cable off me, made in balanced configuration and put them up again Klotz, Mogami and a bunch of others. All made with the same Neutrik XLR plugs. The only identification was a number on each set so he knew what was what. He had multiple bakeoffs with friends who didn't know the identity of any of the cables. Guess what, they all placed the Klotz last, blindly. Its veiled and has bloom In the midbass on every amp I tried BUT as I said, in some systems it can work in its favour. I ran them for 12 months and after an initial opening of the soundstage, they didn't alter in the slightest. You could argue all you like about the Klotz being more "correct" because it's subjective, but I completely disagree. The Spotfire won BTW, and he spent on another two pairs to complete his rig. This is a guy who designed his whole active Yamaha NS1000 amps and crossovers and uses the most accurate phonostage I've ever heard in the Aqvox. He's a serious guy so had my cables lost, I'd have tried what beat them based on his opinion. Balanced will be louder, did he take that into account? I've not said the Klotz is more correct just that in that one application I preferred the sound with Klotz over that of Spotfire. Change the amp, that situation changed. It could be because the Klotz is not as good and is masking problems. I have no quarrel with that argument but there is really no way to verify that or not in any objective way. And the ability of the Klotz has nothing to do with balanced operation. Also isn't balanced slightly noisier than single ended, intrinsically? The point of balanced is to reject pickup of RF induced hum in very long runs, so in short runs there is no benefit. RD was absolutely correct about this, but then even a broken clock is right twice a day No, DSJR said that about the Klotz. Personal choice is all that really matters where hifi is concerned. As far as proving the accuracy of a cable, well good luck with that lol. I think I said before that a good cable will not hide anything. That's pretty much my assumption in your case, that the klotz sounded preferable due to the system, rather than being a better cable. But I would say that lol |
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Post by firebottle on Jul 7, 2019 13:40:07 GMT
A better (subjective to whoever's ears it is) cable will let more of everything through ime.
Micro detail gives the impression of reality, the little nuances that can be masked by grain boundaries in inferior copper (or any other metal) are essential for good sound.
Mu digital side has taken a leap into reality recently.
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Post by karma67 on Jul 7, 2019 14:03:11 GMT
A better (subjective to whoever's ears it is) cable will let more of everything through ime. Micro detail gives the impression of reality, the little nuances that can be masked by grain boundaries in inferior copper (or any other metal) are essential for good sound. Mu digital side has taken a leap into reality recently. what i dont understand is how come you can hear the micro detail once the signal has passed through the super duper grain free cable and enters the normal wire inside the amp? |
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Post by macca on Jul 7, 2019 14:12:15 GMT
You're preserving more of it to get there in the first place? Or is it mostly the quality of the connections rather than the cable itself that makes the difference? A poor quality connection can add distortion and raise impedance.
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Post by firebottle on Jul 7, 2019 14:59:07 GMT
Good point, I think it's a question of degree. You are reducing the 'grainy' cable down to a few cms, rather than the 1 metre plus when going down the interconnect.
I can't think of any other way of looking at it.
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Post by macca on Jul 7, 2019 15:22:39 GMT
I think the only other way of looking at it is that we imagine the differences. Although my rudimentary blind test indicated otherwise. I'd certainly be happy to do a full protocol ABX test - with money at stake - provided it was my system, my room and I could pick the interconnects to be compared.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2019 15:40:12 GMT
Well, let's take it that not all cable or wire is equal, as we have proved to be correct.
I removed any "lesser quality" wire from my phonostage, replaced it with Spotfire and it was obviously better.
I rebuilt my DCB1 with Spotfire and it improved over the first version with the same build specs.
Now, my opinion is that ANY cable/wire which you replace with good quality cable/wire will remove any nasties that lie within it, no matter the length. Hell, I've heard headshell wires make a difference.
I have guys who have replaced their speaker hookup wire With Spotfire and they stated a marked improvement.
Id wager that if we did that experiment with a John Wood amplifier or the Krell, we'd hear a difference again.
When 1m of good wire cost £5, companies aren't going to use it. If you open up 90% of hifi kit, it's full of cheap copper wire because of cost.
If you're serious about your system, it has to be the best components and wires possible for the budget IMO
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Post by macca on Jul 7, 2019 15:51:50 GMT
As you say if we accept wires can make a difference then it follows that all wires in every component should be replaced with the best possible.
I suspect they do this already in at least some high-end kit, although I don't know for sure.
Then you've got PCB tracks and solder. What's the potential difference in quality there? Or are they all much of a muchness?
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Post by karma67 on Jul 7, 2019 15:56:34 GMT
Id wager that if we did that experiment with a John Wood amplifier or the Krell, we'd hear a difference again. ok your on,send me 1 meter of spotfire,just the bare wire and if i hear a difference i'll say so. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 7, 2019 15:57:35 GMT
I'd love someone to make a sneaky substitution without the main listener knowing what's been done. It's been done in the past and either no difference has been noticed (interconnects secretly 'downgraded') or huge differences noticed (an installation engineer pretending to 'upgrade' speaker cables when before and after nothing at all was changed).
We as free-thinking humans are SO easily fooled it's untrue. That's why blind comparisons (sometimes change and other times not at all) can be so telling. I failed my own half-blind comparisons, so forgive the evangelism here.
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Post by antonio on Jul 7, 2019 15:58:09 GMT
Question 1: Is anyone on here unhappy with their cables?
Question 2: Does anyone on here think they significantly improve their cable without doubling the price?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2019 16:07:21 GMT
Id wager that if we did that experiment with a John Wood amplifier or the Krell, we'd hear a difference again. ok your on,send me 1 meter of spotfire,just the bare wire and if i hear a difference i'll say so. No need, Jamie. I'm going to do it to the Krell. I'll happily report back once done. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2019 16:08:50 GMT
I'd love someone to make a sneaky substitution without the main listener knowing what's been done. It's been done in the past and either no difference has been noticed (interconnects secretly 'downgraded') or huge differences noticed (an installation engineer pretending to 'upgrade' speaker cables when before and after nothing at all was changed). We as free-thinking humans are SO easily fooled it's untrue. That's why blind comparisons (sometimes change and other times not at all) can be so telling. I failed my own half-blind comparisons, so forgive the evangelism here. I did it to Macca. He knew and the cable I used is more expensive than the Spotfire. It wasn't as good and it was clear and obvious. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2019 16:10:59 GMT
As you say if we accept wires can make a difference then it follows that all wires in every component should be replaced with the best possible. I suspect they do this already in at least some high-end kit, although I don't know for sure. Then you've got PCB tracks and solder. What's the potential difference in quality there? Or are they all much of a muchness? They should be and have been in my system as far as I can at the moment. PCB tracks are as big as possible on my PCBs for the BigBottle but that's for voltage purposes. |
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Post by macca on Jul 7, 2019 16:16:54 GMT
Question 1: Is anyone on here unhappy with their cables? Question 2: Does anyone on here think they significantly improve their cable without doubling the price? No, I'm happy and no, I don't. If anyone asked me for a cable recco, regardless of budget, I'd point them in Oliver's direction. Good quality connections, good quality thick wire, price reflects the quality of the materials used. I'm happy that part of my system is completely optimised and as good as it can be. The cable believer in me says they have improved the sound and the cable sceptic says well at least my audiophile OCD is satisfied in that area. That's a win-win. |
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Post by savvypaul on Jul 7, 2019 16:19:36 GMT
Question 1: Is anyone on here unhappy with their cables? Question 2: Does anyone on here think they significantly improve their cable without doubling the price? No, I'm happy and no, I don't. If anyone asked me for a cable recco, regardless of budget, I'd point them in Oliver's direction. Good quality connections, good quality thick wire, price reflects the quality of the materials used. I'm happy that part of my system is completely optimised and as good as it can be. The cable believer in me says they have improved the sound and the cable sceptic says well at least my audiophile OCD is satisfied in that area. That's a win-win. Did you pay up front for Oliver's cables without hearing them? Or did you insist on a blind listening test? |
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Post by antonio on Jul 7, 2019 16:53:32 GMT
Question 1: Is anyone on here unhappy with their cables? Question 2: Does anyone on here think they significantly improve their cable without doubling the price? No, I'm happy and no, I don't. If anyone asked me for a cable recco, regardless of budget, I'd point them in Oliver's direction. Good quality connections, good quality thick wire, price reflects the quality of the materials used. I'm happy that part of my system is completely optimised and as good as it can be. The cable believer in me says they have improved the sound and the cable sceptic says well at least my audiophile OCD is satisfied in that area. That's a win-win. Good news regarding question 1. I have to admit I'm happy with mine although I would have liked to try NVA LS6 against my LS5. My brother had no complaints regarding the Spotfire cable and has had to pay more, Townshend Fractals, to better them. |
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Post by macca on Jul 7, 2019 17:00:37 GMT
No, I'm happy and no, I don't. If anyone asked me for a cable recco, regardless of budget, I'd point them in Oliver's direction. Good quality connections, good quality thick wire, price reflects the quality of the materials used. I'm happy that part of my system is completely optimised and as good as it can be. The cable believer in me says they have improved the sound and the cable sceptic says well at least my audiophile OCD is satisfied in that area. That's a win-win. Did you pay up front for Oliver's cables without hearing them? Or did you insist on a blind listening test? The interconnects I had a home demo. The speaker cable I bought blind on the strength of the interconnect performance and because I needed new speaker cable anyway. I think I might have had a listen to it at Oliver's place but I'd already put the order in by then. I'd like to have done blind tests but it isn't simple to do that and the cost wasn't sufficient to justify the aggravation. |
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