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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2019 19:05:02 GMT
Did you pay up front for Oliver's cables without hearing them? Or did you insist on a blind listening test? The interconnects I had a home demo. The speaker cable I bought blind on the strength of the interconnect performance and because I needed new speaker cable anyway. I think I might have had a listen to it at Oliver's place but I'd already put the order in by then. I'd like to have done blind tests but it isn't simple to do that and the cost wasn't sufficient to justify the aggravation. Ah, you didnt order untill you'd heard them. If you recall, you'd mentioned overblown midbass on your NVA cables and wanted check it was the cable and not the track. We used that Robert Plant track which confirmed it and demonstrated that you were correct. It was only after hearing the Spotfire speaker cables that you put your order in or paid to confirm prior to construction. Whichever description you prefer. Heard first, paid after. Like I said Paul, I'm happy to demo them and if they weren't for you, you don't have to buy any. As for buying blind, I buy everything blind and sell it if I don't like it. Cartridges, speakers, cables, tonearm, the lot, all used. No return policy on anything. I haven't been left out of pocket on anything other than one tonearm and that was Only £20 or something of hardly any consequence. It's part of the Fun and if that's not for you, cool. |
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Post by sq225917 on Jul 7, 2019 19:55:13 GMT
The only place I'd dick about with internal wire is between Input and first gain stage in a phonostage. I'd junk old green oxidized wire in a psu too.
Almost all my kit is internally wired with solid core cos it's easy to solder and form a tight bend.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2019 20:14:03 GMT
The only place I'd dick about with internal wire is between Input and first gain stage in a phonostage. I'd junk old green oxidized wire in a psu too. Almost all my kit is internally wired with solid core cos it's easy to solder and form a tight bend. I tried solid core but felt it gave an edge to the sound. Went when I took it out for identical stuff, just stranded. I might just be bonkers though lol |
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Post by macca on Jul 8, 2019 7:22:49 GMT
The interconnects I had a home demo. The speaker cable I bought blind on the strength of the interconnect performance and because I needed new speaker cable anyway. I think I might have had a listen to it at Oliver's place but I'd already put the order in by then. I'd like to have done blind tests but it isn't simple to do that and the cost wasn't sufficient to justify the aggravation. Ah, you didnt order untill you'd heard them. If you recall, you'd mentioned overblown midbass on your NVA cables and wanted check it was the cable and not the track. We used that Robert Plant track which confirmed it and demonstrated that you were correct. It was only after hearing the Spotfire speaker cables that you put your order in or paid to confirm prior to construction. Whichever description you prefer. Heard first, paid after. I paid once you had them ready to ship but IIRC I was hassling you about a speaker cable before you'd even sourced the wire. The bass thing with the LS5 was weird but it did it on my system also. Just a little bit of distortion when there was a lot of bass energy in the recording. I'd like to demonstrate that to someone who thinks all speaker cable sounds the same. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2019 8:44:47 GMT
Ah, you didnt order untill you'd heard them. If you recall, you'd mentioned overblown midbass on your NVA cables and wanted check it was the cable and not the track. We used that Robert Plant track which confirmed it and demonstrated that you were correct. It was only after hearing the Spotfire speaker cables that you put your order in or paid to confirm prior to construction. Whichever description you prefer. Heard first, paid after. I paid once you had them ready to ship but IIRC I was hassling you about a speaker cable before you'd even sourced the wire. The bass thing with the LS5 was weird but it did it on my system also. Just a little bit of distortion when there was a lot of bass energy in the recording. I'd like to demonstrate that to someone who thinks all speaker cable sounds the same. Ah yes, you are right. You'd asked before I even had a pair made lol. Also, on the distortion, yes, a strange phenomena as I have never heard another cable do this although I'm sure there are others. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 8, 2019 9:15:57 GMT
No bass thing with LS5 here and I'm not using NVA amps day to day. It's a reasonable gauge speaker cable. Not sure the insulated strands really would make a difference, but Kimber have been marketing this for decades, albeit plaiting the conductors together... Anyone here tried VDH 'The Wind?' Brilliant with big Krells I recall.
P.S. What mechanisms do stranded cables have that could *add* audible distortion which has to be quite severe for our ears to detect it? If the gauge is reasonable and the cables not badly kinked or twisted and with proper connection to the connectors, it just can't happen surely and never did in all the time i demonstrated using all manner of different wires from thin solid core to mega-chunky hosepipe sized cables?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 8, 2019 9:56:06 GMT
No bass thing with LS5 here and I'm not using NVA amps day to day. It's a reasonable gauge speaker cable. Not sure the insulated strands really would make a difference, but Kimber have been marketing this for decades, albeit plaiting the conductors together... Anyone here tried VDH 'The Wind?' Brilliant with big Krells I recall. P.S. What mechanisms do stranded cables have that could *add* audible distortion which has to be quite severe for our ears to detect it? If the gauge is reasonable and the cables not badly kinked or twisted and with proper connection to the connectors, it just can't happen surely and never did in all the time i demonstrated using all manner of different wires from thin solid core to mega-chunky hosepipe sized cables? Surprises me how much of a difference speaker cables can make. Never tried The Wind and not sure how it differs from CS122 but the latter is like earmuffs for your system imo. Of course that can depend on what you use it with, but I’ve tried it with a few bits and had consistently dull results. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2019 10:09:22 GMT
No bass thing with LS5 here and I'm not using NVA amps day to day. It's a reasonable gauge speaker cable. Not sure the insulated strands really would make a difference, but Kimber have been marketing this for decades, albeit plaiting the conductors together... Anyone here tried VDH 'The Wind?' Brilliant with big Krells I recall. P.S. What mechanisms do stranded cables have that could *add* audible distortion which has to be quite severe for our ears to detect it? If the gauge is reasonable and the cables not badly kinked or twisted and with proper connection to the connectors, it just can't happen surely and never did in all the time i demonstrated using all manner of different wires from thin solid core to mega-chunky hosepipe sized cables? Surprises me how much of a difference speaker cables can make. Never tried The Wind and not sure how it differs from CS122 but the latter is like earmuffs for your system imo. Of course that can depend on what you use it with, but I’ve tried it with a few bits and had consistently dull results. Yes, I wasn't impressed with the CS122 really. Got some ancient Nordost and Monster that sound fine, but the cheap(ish) Transparent Audio Musichord is what I'm sticking with as main cables. Looks like strimmer cable, but sounds great! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2019 10:14:44 GMT
No bass thing with LS5 here and I'm not using NVA amps day to day. It's a reasonable gauge speaker cable. Not sure the insulated strands really would make a difference, but Kimber have been marketing this for decades, albeit plaiting the conductors together... Anyone here tried VDH 'The Wind?' Brilliant with big Krells I recall.
P.S. What mechanisms do stranded cables have that could *add* audible distortion which has to be quite severe for our ears to detect it? If the gauge is reasonable and the cables not badly kinked or twisted and with proper connection to the connectors, it just can't happen surely and never did in all the time i demonstrated using all manner of different wires from thin solid core to mega-chunky hosepipe sized cables?
Dave, your guess is as good as mine as to the "why" but Macca reported his worries on his system and we replicated it at mine very easily. This was prior to any other listening tests we did. IIRC Macca brought some other cables over too. Now, I did have a quick look over the cables and couldn't see anything untoward but what was hiding below the braiding, I couldn't say. I'd happily take a look at them if macca wants them checked out but as far as cables go, there isn't that much to go wrong. It seemed like a tonal hump in the middle to me which in turn sounded a little pushed forward which distorted the balance of the sound. Never tried "the wind" as it never came up as an option when I was looking at specs. Saying that, neither did the Chord stuff lol |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 8, 2019 10:30:30 GMT
The Wind is superb in a proper top end system. I was shocked when I compared it to Chord Odyssey using a Krell FPB300 and SF Amati Homage speakers. The Chord sounded splattery up top and the bass was taut but tuneless. Playing a nice recording of a cathedral organ, the 'Wind' seemed to bring more of the venue 'size' into the listening room and the top note harmonics seemed just more 'real' as you'd hear it 'live.' On other music in this system, cymbals sounded more realistic (the tweeters go way out and don't hold back) and again, different recording productions were more clearly defined, the Odyssey cable kind of making everything 'samey' in comparison. Into less exalted stereo's (Naim, Spendor S series speakers and castle equivalents, clamshell Rega and so on), the odyssey brought a much needed sense of life I remember.
I don't know the mechanics of all this and as macca said above or in another thread, I fall between two stools here, trying to reconcile provable science to the crap i hear. The Odyssey is a silver plated copper, which isn't regarded as a good thing in audiophile land. More importantly, the gauge of Odyssey isn't very large (1.5mm? and Rumour 0.75mm?) and materials/insulation aside, I reckon the gauge of a speaker cable is extremely important in 5m plus runs as long as the materials are good quality. The LS5 is a reasonable gauge and quite difficult for me to re-terminate when the otherwise fine Z plugs fracture with repeated use..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2019 10:55:44 GMT
The Wind is superb in a proper top end system. I was shocked when I compared it to Chord Odyssey using a Krell FPB300 and SF Amati Homage speakers. The Chord sounded splattery up top and the bass was taut but tuneless. Playing a nice recording of a cathedral organ, the 'Wind' seemed to bring more of the venue 'size' into the listening room and the top note harmonics seemed just more 'real' as you'd hear it 'live.' On other music in this system, cymbals sounded more realistic (the tweeters go way out and don't hold back) and again, different recording productions were more clearly defined, the Odyssey cable kind of making everything 'samey' in comparison. Into less exalted stereo's (Naim, Spendor S series speakers and castle equivalents, clamshell Rega and so on), the odyssey brought a much needed sense of life I remember. I don't know the mechanics of all this and as macca said above or in another thread, I fall between two stools here, trying to reconcile provable science to the crap i hear. The Odyssey is a silver plated copper, which isn't regarded as a good thing in audiophile land. More importantly, the gauge of Odyssey isn't very large (1.5mm? and Rumour 0.75mm?) and materials/insulation aside, I reckon the gauge of a speaker cable is extremely important in 5m plus runs as long as the materials are good quality. The LS5 is a reasonable gauge and quite difficult for me to re-terminate when the otherwise fine Z plugs fracture with repeated use.. I Know of a few guys that claim the wind to be good so I don't doubt that but I'd be dumbstruck if they improved on what I have here (my own) If a pair cross my path, I'll have a listen. The chords were not good imo, flat, lack of ambience and absolutely no micro detail at all. They got shifted on swiftly but people buy them so someone must like them. I can't explain the phenomena with the LS5, I did have a brief look into it but I wasn't overly interested as it's not a path to anywhere I wanted to be. |
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Post by macca on Jul 8, 2019 11:39:47 GMT
re the LS5 it does not distort when used in NVA system. You need a combination of the right amp, speakers and music to get the effect to manifest. It's a good cable to try if you have a 'thin' sounding system and nothing else has worked to fix it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2019 18:26:18 GMT
I've had VDH CS122. In the right system they can sound alright. They can sound a tad soft on top but I kinda like them.
I see the VDH wind are still in production.
S.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2019 5:42:00 GMT
, No bass thing with LS5 here and I'm not using NVA amps day to day. It's a reasonable gauge speaker cable. Not sure the insulated strands really would make a difference, but Kimber have been marketing this for decades, albeit plaiting the conductors together... Anyone here tried VDH 'The Wind?' Brilliant with big Krells I recall.
P.S. What mechanisms do stranded cables have that could *add* audible distortion which has to be quite severe for our ears to detect it? If the gauge is reasonable and the cables not badly kinked or twisted and with proper connection to the connectors, it just can't happen surely and never did in all the time i demonstrated using all manner of different wires from thin solid core to mega-chunky hosepipe sized cables?
The mechanism that's often cited is diodic contact caused by the close proximity of strands to one another. Naturally, you have the two camps with one side saying it doesn't exist and if it did it wouldn't have any effect on sound, and then you have the other side which say exactly the opposite. Back in the late 70s when the great Multi-Strand V Solid Core war kicked off, with your mate Jimmy (The Man) Hughes playing an active role, I started experimenting, as did many others. I came out in favour of solid core. The one factor I observed with solid core, along with others, was the lack of "hash" (HF) with solid core, only apparent with stranded cables, when it wasn't there. What I found was a purer sound with better focus if seemingly less detailed at the top-end and extension at the bottom. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 9, 2019 8:28:26 GMT
The thing with solid core though, was the very fine (relatively speaking) gauge of the cores often used. This adds no end of resistance and alters speaker frequency response. I heard what you did - at Jimmy's - but at home, solid core often dulled the sound and took the flesh from the bass and vocals.
re the above, I'm now forced between two stools here. The thing is, I have all these subjective memories (and I just edited away a long ramble into experiences of different types of same-gauge wires we sold over the years), yet as a lot of it can only be the different insulations used (Naim A4, Linn K20, Cable Talk 3.1* and 4.1 plus others), was I deluding myself? I don't believe any blind testing was ever done to prove sighted results.
CT 3.1 was a bloody bargain at the time. Good quality 42 strand 2.5mm conductors in a dumbbell layout, but there was 4.1 too, same copper laid the same but with a different insulation (I think current Talk 3 uses similar stuff in a small-spaced fig-8 config). For many years, I'd been using CT's later 'Excel 4' cable, a fig-8 version of 4.1 with 2.5mm section and 42 strands. When I was given LS2 to use instead (2.5mm seven strands made by Ebion Kablo with a grey cover to the copper and the black colour an external layer) I'm sure I preferred it.
Wish I knew what the hell is going on and able to try again without pre-conceived ideas.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2019 11:21:27 GMT
You can have solid core AND low resistance - ribbon.
Have one or two ideas floating around I'd like to try. At the end of the day though, I don't know if I can be really bothered.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 9, 2019 11:30:18 GMT
Ribbon speaker wires? Nordost Flatline and up to Red dawn wasn't very good as I remember - added it's own tone correction i remember... What about increased capacitance a la Goetz types? Best compromise for speakers used to be fresh solid core mains, but the gauge still wasn't great (1.5mm?) DNM (300 ohm arial style) interconnects used to pick up taxis and so on in some areas, something at least the so-called Faraday cage types partly avoided (my Klotz MC5000 cables now have the outer screen connected at one end - I've had issues and this cable ain't going to be part of it!).
I dunno. I'm trying to put all this 'stuff' into some kind of perspective. All started when peeps began saying LS5 was flawed in some way - it may be a lot of things, but it's a good gauge speaker cable hand made using good for purpose internal parts. Anyway, this is moot as it's unlikely ever to be resurrected.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 9, 2019 11:44:43 GMT
Going back to the OP and looking back, hard!
I had a downer on the Linn Lk280 and also the LK100. Both these audio memories were using k20 speaker cable, which I grew to dislike irrespective of the gear it connected too (it shouldn't make any difference), yet outside of this I loved the later Klout (ton-up 280 design), had a soft spot for the LK2-75 and now, the late issue LK280/Spark I picked up in perfect original internal condition (that Spark would make an excellent high current split 55V rail twin power supply for any kit which is why I want to hang onto it for a while...).
Loads of Sh#t here right now (health and future-career worries) so forgive me returning to rambling to take my mind off things. I promised I'd retire from forums but it's damned hard...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2019 15:56:13 GMT
Ribbon speaker wires? Nordost Flatline and up to Red dawn wasn't very good as I remember - added it's own tone correction i remember... What about increased capacitance a la Goetz types? Best compromise for speakers used to be fresh solid core mains, but the gauge still wasn't great (1.5mm?) DNM (300 ohm arial style) interconnects used to pick up taxis and so on in some areas, something at least the so-called Faraday cage types partly avoided (my Klotz MC5000 cables now have the outer screen connected at one end - I've had issues and this cable ain't going to be part of it!).
I dunno. I'm trying to put all this 'stuff' into some kind of perspective. All started when peeps began saying LS5 was flawed in some way - it may be a lot of things, but it's a good gauge speaker cable hand made using good for purpose internal parts. Anyway, this is moot as it's unlikely ever to be resurrected.
Itt could be resurrected. Nothing stopping you picking up your soldering Iron, Dave. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 9, 2019 16:29:48 GMT
I don't know what goes into it and the little drums of fine insulated wire aren't something I recognise supplier wise. When I re-terminated one of mine, the 'strands' were all soldered tightly together so it was easy to remove one z plug and fit another (they're actually good conductors but rather frail if using all the time as I was for a while).
Family health stuff aside which has come as a bit of a curve-ball, I'm rather confused at present with a few possibilities but nothing straightforward other than slowly navigating a massive can of worms.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2019 16:46:00 GMT
I don't know what goes into it and the little drums of fine insulated wire aren't something I recognise supplier wise. When I re-terminated one of mine, the 'strands' were all soldered tightly together so it was easy to remove one z plug and fit another (they're actually good conductors but rather frail if using all the time as I was for a while). Family health stuff aside which has come as a bit of a curve-ball, I'm rather confused at present with a few possibilities but nothing straightforward other than slowly navigating a massive can of worms. Wouldn't be too hard to get measurements of it and narrow the search. I am sure the HFS fraternity would appreciate someone supplying their beloved cable. Just a thought. |
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Post by dsjr on Jul 9, 2019 16:54:24 GMT
I'd rather make amps/preamps and phono stages..... I loved doing that and the thrill of listening for the first time to something I created.
Fear of the unknown even at my age...
I'll get there as the pressure mounts.
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Post by sq225917 on Jul 9, 2019 17:18:33 GMT
I hear you. The first switch on is always nerve racking
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2019 18:14:15 GMT
Aye. Especially if you've fitted a power supply capacitor the wrong way round.
How hard are you!?!
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Post by dsjr on Jul 9, 2019 18:16:55 GMT
As long as I didn't get magic smoke from the input stage (there often used to be small solder bridges which are easily missed although later boards were better) I could then do a crude test for DC offsets on the output. Only then would I plug in speakers and it's this joy at hearing music through a fresh construct...
Mind you, a few of you make things from scratch, not a kit of parts as I used to. I'm envious of those able to drill cases from nothing...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2019 18:24:34 GMT
Hmm. The video looks creative. I wonder what might happen if I connect some Lithium or Sodium up?  |
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Post by sq225917 on Jul 9, 2019 18:25:43 GMT
To be fair the cases are usually the hardest part, no second chances with £300 mono block cases.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2019 18:42:11 GMT
To be fair the cases are usually the hardest part, no second chances with £300 mono block cases. I can imagine. I've done smaller stuff and know the amount of forethought and measurement needed. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2019 18:42:44 GMT
I sometimes worry about you, Dave. I would have thought the two golden maxims relating to hi-fi would be kept ever present - PP & CB. Personal Preference: you like what you like - which may not be to others' tastes. Component Bonding: how well an item bonds with the rest of the system. Best to keep an open mind here,if possible, with regards previous encounters. Look at young Westie, for example. The Roksan Tabriz never got the lickings of a dog from him from previous outings. Now... he's as happy as Larry with it. A lesson there for us all, I think.
Anyway, how do you recollect the Meridian 103 power amp? I've just bought one, shagged, naturally. Well it was only £60. I have the matching preamp which also requires attention. Have some M3s, too. Also needing attention.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2019 19:08:13 GMT
The only place I'd dick about with internal wire is between Input and first gain stage in a phonostage. I'd junk old green oxidized wire in a psu too. Almost all my kit is internally wired with solid core cos it's easy to solder and form a tight bend. I'm rewiring my Audioromy amp. Some of wiring like the power supply and that around the output stage is really quite natty:  |
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