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Post by jandl100 on Aug 22, 2022 16:49:03 GMT
Ah, thanks, Dave. I think it might have been the Grand Utopia that so impressed me. I do remember them as being bloody huge. We heard the Grand Utopia's at Munich, I don't doubt they sounded good, but remember them giving the impression of a guitar being 9'. I was not the only one, speaking to Roy Gregory (name dropper) he agreed with me. Sometimes that can be the electronics rather than the speakers. Some amps can struggle to focus things properly. |
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Post by antonio on Aug 22, 2022 17:21:11 GMT
Roy Gregory confirmed with us it was the speakers Jerry, can't remember what amps were being used, but it wasn't Naim.
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Post by macca on Aug 22, 2022 17:30:09 GMT
Could have been the room? Never seen Roy Gregory talk any sense so not taking his word that it is the speaker. Although it would put me off them if it was.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 22, 2022 21:52:26 GMT
I'd say those JMLabs are gonna be a squeeze, macca I mean, don't get me wrong....I'd LOVE them...but they are big bastards. Very easy to overpower a room with those, I'd think anyway. I heard a system once with some 15" hORNS speakers.....really great resolution, tonality and depth. Honestly...it was superb. Until a solo guitar played and it was 10feet wide. It's like the system blew everything out of proportion and once I heard that, everything that followed just sounded unrealistic. Huge disappointment as it really was a very good system. One of the few I'd actually listen to again. I put it down to the speaker placement tbh. They were very wide apart and I think I needed to be 3-5m further back to get the proper sense of size. However, solo male singing Acapella in a church....WOW....it was life size and utterly magical. Seems you can't have it all....but when it was good, it was unreal. If you're looking at big boy speakers, try and get something with spectacular LF control....or you'll be forever booming. I think I read that certain frequencies need 3m to unfold the wave....madness! |
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Post by antonio on Aug 23, 2022 4:16:33 GMT
Could have been the room? Never seen Roy Gregory talk any sense so not taking his word that it is the speaker. Although it would put me off them if it was. It was the speakers Macca, similar effect to what Bigman experienced. |
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Post by antonio on Aug 23, 2022 4:17:24 GMT
Could have been the room? Never seen Roy Gregory talk any sense so not taking his word that it is the speaker. Although it would put me off them if it was. It was the speakers Macca, similar to what Bigman experienced. |
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Post by Arke on Aug 23, 2022 8:41:07 GMT
I'd say those JMLabs are gonna be a squeeze, macca I mean, don't get me wrong....I'd LOVE them...but they are big bastards. Very easy to overpower a room with those, I'd think anyway. I heard a system once with some 15" hORNS speakers.....really great resolution, tonality and depth. Honestly...it was superb. Until a solo guitar played and it was 10feet wide. It's like the system blew everything out of proportion and once I heard that, everything that followed just sounded unrealistic. Huge disappointment as it really was a very good system. One of the few I'd actually listen to again. I put it down to the speaker placement tbh. They were very wide apart and I think I needed to be 3-5m further back to get the proper sense of size. However, solo male singing Acapella in a church....WOW....it was life size and utterly magical. Seems you can't have it all....but when it was good, it was unreal. If you're looking at big boy speakers, try and get something with spectacular LF control....or you'll be forever booming. I think I read that certain frequencies need 3m to unfold the wave....madness! Is size perception/reproduction of instruments due to recording and production too? When I listen to Keith don't go on my system the guitar almost seems too big... Almost like my head is inside it. I quite like that effect. I'd put it down to recording/production as it seems similar on most systems. |
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Post by optical on Aug 23, 2022 8:49:48 GMT
I'd say those JMLabs are gonna be a squeeze, macca I mean, don't get me wrong....I'd LOVE them...but they are big bastards. Very easy to overpower a room with those, I'd think anyway. I heard a system once with some 15" hORNS speakers.....really great resolution, tonality and depth. Honestly...it was superb. Until a solo guitar played and it was 10feet wide. It's like the system blew everything out of proportion and once I heard that, everything that followed just sounded unrealistic. Huge disappointment as it really was a very good system. One of the few I'd actually listen to again. I put it down to the speaker placement tbh. They were very wide apart and I think I needed to be 3-5m further back to get the proper sense of size. However, solo male singing Acapella in a church....WOW....it was life size and utterly magical. Seems you can't have it all....but when it was good, it was unreal. If you're looking at big boy speakers, try and get something with spectacular LF control....or you'll be forever booming. I think I read that certain frequencies need 3m to unfold the wave....madness! Is size perception/reproduction of instruments due to recording and production too? When I listen to Keith don't go on my system the guitar almost seems too big... Almost like my head is inside it. I quite like that effect. I'd put it down to recording/production as it seems similar on most systems. It can definitely be down to production/recording. But, if it happens on a recording you know sounds 'normal' ie: normal size when listened to many times on other systems/speakers, then you know something is up. It will likely do it on other things after that which would become very distracting. I agree with you on quite liking the effect on some material though but when it happens to that extent it just sounds synthetic and like you're just listening to massive speakers rather than a high quality musical reproduction system. I'm assuming this was the case here as it's no reason to write off a system/speaker because it happened on something unfamiliar or on a 'one off' recording. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 23, 2022 8:53:09 GMT
I'd say those JMLabs are gonna be a squeeze, macca I mean, don't get me wrong....I'd LOVE them...but they are big bastards. Very easy to overpower a room with those, I'd think anyway. I heard a system once with some 15" hORNS speakers.....really great resolution, tonality and depth. Honestly...it was superb. Until a solo guitar played and it was 10feet wide. It's like the system blew everything out of proportion and once I heard that, everything that followed just sounded unrealistic. Huge disappointment as it really was a very good system. One of the few I'd actually listen to again. I put it down to the speaker placement tbh. They were very wide apart and I think I needed to be 3-5m further back to get the proper sense of size. However, solo male singing Acapella in a church....WOW....it was life size and utterly magical. Seems you can't have it all....but when it was good, it was unreal. If you're looking at big boy speakers, try and get something with spectacular LF control....or you'll be forever booming. I think I read that certain frequencies need 3m to unfold the wave....madness! Is size perception/reproduction of instruments due to recording and production too? When I listen to Keith don't go on my system the guitar almost seems too big... Almost like my head is inside it. I quite like that effect. I'd put it down to recording/production as it seems similar on most systems. I think there are recordings that can do that, but that presentation remains fairly consistent across various systems. I actually download the track when I got home and it didn't do it there. It could have been down to how wide the speakers were apart, which made me look into optimal distances for speaker placement. I've also heard amplifiers over blow the soundstage and sound like they have no cohesion, so I'm not sure it's an issue confined to one particular speaker. However, I couldn't live with it. |
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Post by lurch on Aug 23, 2022 12:33:23 GMT
Macca. Get yer ears wrapped around a pair of MLs, Summit or Summit Xs, they'll do everything you'll ever want. Deep (23 Hz) tight bass, detailed sweet mids & crystalline airey hf. Bass is adjustable/tuneable for the room +/- 10dB centered around 25 & 50 Hz, panels take over from 270 Hz.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Aug 23, 2022 17:44:00 GMT
I've edited my post above, the impression was of the guitar being 9 foot not 9 inches.  But a 3 inch pianist...  |
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Post by macca on Aug 23, 2022 17:54:09 GMT
Macca. Get yer ears wrapped around a pair of MLs, Summit or Summit Xs, they'll do everything you'll ever want. Deep (23 Hz) tight bass, detailed sweet mids & crystalline airey hf. Bass is adjustable/tuneable for the room +/- 10dB centered around 25 & 50 Hz, panels take over from 270 Hz. An interesting suggestion, thanks. Some Summits here for three and a half kay - www.choicehifi.com/product/martin-logan-summit-2/didn't really have panels or electrostatics on my radar. I like a lot of what they do but they are outside my comfort zone a bit. I did have a listen to some smaller ML a fait few years ago. I'd read that the panel doesn't integrate seamlessly with the bass module but I didn't find that to be the case when I heard them. Aside from the comfort zone thing they need to be plugged in though which counts them out as that's just too awkward in my room. It's what puts me off going for actives like Neuman or Genelec. Or the Kii3. I don't think I've ever heard a better speaker than the Kii3 - if we're going by better meaning 'perfection.' Although I'd still rather have the JBL4365 or 4367 even though technically they are not as good, they are more fun. |
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Post by antonio on Aug 23, 2022 20:43:59 GMT
I've edited my post above, the impression was of the guitar being 9 foot not 9 inches. But a 3 inch pianist... You been looking at me? |
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Aug 23, 2022 22:03:15 GMT
But a 3 inch pianist... You been looking at me? Well I'd brought a magnifying glass, shame not to use it  |
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Aug 24, 2022 7:19:08 GMT
Macca. Get yer ears wrapped around a pair of MLs, Summit or Summit Xs, they'll do everything you'll ever want. Deep (23 Hz) tight bass, detailed sweet mids & crystalline airey hf. Bass is adjustable/tuneable for the room +/- 10dB centered around 25 & 50 Hz, panels take over from 270 Hz. An interesting suggestion, thanks. Some Summits here for three and a half kay - www.choicehifi.com/product/martin-logan-summit-2/didn't really have panels or electrostatics on my radar. I like a lot of what they do but they are outside my comfort zone a bit. I did have a listen to some smaller ML a fait few years ago. I'd read that the panel doesn't integrate seamlessly with the bass module but I didn't find that to be the case when I heard them. Aside from the comfort zone thing they need to be plugged in though which counts them out as that's just too awkward in my room. It's what puts me off going for actives like Neuman or Genelec. Or the Kii3. I don't think I've ever heard a better speaker than the Kii3 - if we're going by better meaning 'perfection.' Although I'd still rather have the JBL4365 or 4367 even though technically they are not as good, they are more fun. Don't let the power cables thing put you off - you could cut a channel in your floor to run the cables to where you want them, then cement them in. I have a 9" angle grinder that would make short work of it. I think that would work a treat, and is no crazier than say, hoarding empty cereal boxes, keeping a stuffed parrot in a cage for company or having fourteen cats  You might need a dust sheet for your gear while doing it, can be dusty work. I have one of those too. |
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edward
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Post by edward on Aug 24, 2022 14:02:44 GMT
I had a good listen to Lurch's MLs at his bake off the other day. I was/am tempted to sell all my speakers for a ML. It does all one can ask for - and more. Almost up there with MBLs, different tech of course. Trouble with my cunning plan is getting MLs past my CEO/CFO - the height thing I can see is an issue.
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Post by optical on Aug 24, 2022 14:28:17 GMT
I had a good listen to Lurch's MLs at his bake off the other day. I was/am tempted to sell all my speakers for a ML. It does all one can ask for - and more. Almost up there with MBLs, different tech of course. Trouble with my cunning plan is getting MLs past my CEO/CFO - the height thing I can see is an issue. Personally, I'm still somewhat subscribed to the opinion that if you've heard something like the ML's, setup properly on the end of some top class amplification, you'd own some. The usual electrostat shortcomings (no bass/narrow sweetspot/huge size) have been pretty much dealt with due to a well integrated woofer (with +/- boost switches), a wider dispersion panel (which works well to give a wider sweetspot) and the footprint on the floor is not much larger (if any) than most conventional speakers. Granted the height is up there, but what are you currently using the space above your speakers for? If it's a visual impact thing then there's not much can be done about that but I don't think they're that bad, their virtues easily outweigh their caveats. Just my opinion of course. |
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Post by antonio on Aug 24, 2022 15:29:49 GMT
Macca. Get yer ears wrapped around a pair of MLs, Summit or Summit Xs, they'll do everything you'll ever want. Deep (23 Hz) tight bass, detailed sweet mids & crystalline airey hf. Bass is adjustable/tuneable for the room +/- 10dB centered around 25 & 50 Hz, panels take over from 270 Hz. An interesting suggestion, thanks. Some Summits here for three and a half kay - www.choicehifi.com/product/martin-logan-summit-2/didn't really have panels or electrostatics on my radar. I like a lot of what they do but they are outside my comfort zone a bit. I did have a listen to some smaller ML a fait few years ago. I'd read that the panel doesn't integrate seamlessly with the bass module but I didn't find that to be the case when I heard them. Aside from the comfort zone thing they need to be plugged in though which counts them out as that's just too awkward in my room. It's what puts me off going for actives like Neuman or Genelec. Or the Kii3. I don't think I've ever heard a better speaker than the Kii3 - if we're going by better meaning 'perfection.' Although I'd still rather have the JBL4365 or 4367 even though technically they are not as good, they are more fun. I've got some good and bad news for you macca, we heard the Kii's (with the bass module) yesterday when we went for a demonstration of speakers, they were at the bottom of the pile, sounded detailed but coarse, no way a true hifi speaker. The good news is I can point you towards better speakers. |
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edward
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Post by edward on Aug 24, 2022 17:24:36 GMT
I had a good listen to Lurch's MLs at his bake off the other day. I was/am tempted to sell all my speakers for a ML. It does all one can ask for - and more. Almost up there with MBLs, different tech of course. Trouble with my cunning plan is getting MLs past my CEO/CFO - the height thing I can see is an issue. Personally, I'm still somewhat subscribed to the opinion that if you've heard something like the ML's, setup properly on the end of some top class amplification, you'd own some. The usual electrostat shortcomings (no bass/narrow sweetspot/huge size) have been pretty much dealt with due to a well integrated woofer (with +/- boost switches), a wider dispersion panel (which works well to give a wider sweetspot) and the footprint on the floor is not much larger (if any) than most conventional speakers. Granted the height is up there, but what are you currently using the space above your speakers for? If it's a visual impact thing then there's not much can be done about that but I don't think they're that bad, their virtues easily outweigh their caveats. Just my opinion of course. Well I do value your opinion Chris. And also you know my listening space. Tell you what mate. Let's do a temporary swap. Your MLs for my Tannoys. Then I do not have to convince the CEO on the height issue. Of course I'm not being serious.  |
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Post by macca on Aug 24, 2022 17:37:56 GMT
An interesting suggestion, thanks. Some Summits here for three and a half kay - www.choicehifi.com/product/martin-logan-summit-2/didn't really have panels or electrostatics on my radar. I like a lot of what they do but they are outside my comfort zone a bit. I did have a listen to some smaller ML a fait few years ago. I'd read that the panel doesn't integrate seamlessly with the bass module but I didn't find that to be the case when I heard them. Aside from the comfort zone thing they need to be plugged in though which counts them out as that's just too awkward in my room. It's what puts me off going for actives like Neuman or Genelec. Or the Kii3. I don't think I've ever heard a better speaker than the Kii3 - if we're going by better meaning 'perfection.' Although I'd still rather have the JBL4365 or 4367 even though technically they are not as good, they are more fun. I've got some good and bad news for you macca , we heard the Kii's (with the bass module) yesterday when we went for a demonstration of speakers, they were at the bottom of the pile, sounded detailed but coarse, no way a true hifi speaker. The good news is I can point you towards better speakers. Surprised by that as when I heard them (with the bass modules) they did not sound coarse at all. I thought they were better than the studio monitoring systems I have heard. But I'm not paying sixteen grand for speakers and they are active anyway, which rules them out. Totally open to suggestions. Currently trying to talk myself out of those TADs that Tony is selling. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Aug 24, 2022 20:15:43 GMT
An interesting suggestion, thanks. Some Summits here for three and a half kay - www.choicehifi.com/product/martin-logan-summit-2/didn't really have panels or electrostatics on my radar. I like a lot of what they do but they are outside my comfort zone a bit. I did have a listen to some smaller ML a fait few years ago. I'd read that the panel doesn't integrate seamlessly with the bass module but I didn't find that to be the case when I heard them. Aside from the comfort zone thing they need to be plugged in though which counts them out as that's just too awkward in my room. It's what puts me off going for actives like Neuman or Genelec. Or the Kii3. I don't think I've ever heard a better speaker than the Kii3 - if we're going by better meaning 'perfection.' Although I'd still rather have the JBL4365 or 4367 even though technically they are not as good, they are more fun. I've got some good and bad news for you macca, we heard the Kii's (with the bass module) yesterday when we went for a demonstration of speakers, they were at the bottom of the pile, sounded detailed but coarse, no way a true hifi speaker. The good news is I can point you towards better speakers. A guy in one of the reviews said easily impress, difficult to love. |
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Post by antonio on Aug 25, 2022 4:40:49 GMT
macca Those TAD's would be very nice.
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Post by optical on Aug 25, 2022 7:37:03 GMT
Personally, I'm still somewhat subscribed to the opinion that if you've heard something like the ML's, setup properly on the end of some top class amplification, you'd own some. The usual electrostat shortcomings (no bass/narrow sweetspot/huge size) have been pretty much dealt with due to a well integrated woofer (with +/- boost switches), a wider dispersion panel (which works well to give a wider sweetspot) and the footprint on the floor is not much larger (if any) than most conventional speakers. Granted the height is up there, but what are you currently using the space above your speakers for? If it's a visual impact thing then there's not much can be done about that but I don't think they're that bad, their virtues easily outweigh their caveats. Just my opinion of course. Well I do value your opinion Chris. And also you know my listening space. Tell you what mate. Let's do a temporary swap. Your MLs for my Tannoys. Then I do not have to convince the CEO on the height issue. Of course I'm not being serious. Haha, if you can magically heal my shoulder (torn it dumping various children into a paddling pool the other week, mostly mine) so we can struggle down two flights of stairs with some large, awkward shaped bass units which are over 50KG each and rent a transit van with a tail-gate lift to do the swap, I'd be up for it Edward! Indeed it would be a mammoth effort to be fair. But seriously you can pick up a decent pair of Logans for not a huge amount. They aren't particularly bothered about room shape and you certainly have the square footage to accommodate them. Back to the thread - macca those TAD's do look absolutely solid and will outlast any of us I would think, end game for sure. Considering your *serious* budget here I'm sure any dealer as interested in your cash as you are in getting some quality speakers, should give you a home demo. That would give you the answer straight away as to any models being slightly/significantly/no better than your current speakers. Also tells you exactly how well/badly they perform in your room and system. Can't mess around with these sums involved. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2022 8:02:23 GMT
Totally open to suggestions. Currently trying to talk myself out of those TADs that Tony is selling. Well, you can’t take it with you. But £12k will give you a wide choice of very good speakers. |
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Post by Arke on Aug 25, 2022 8:05:09 GMT
An interesting suggestion, thanks. Some Summits here for three and a half kay - www.choicehifi.com/product/martin-logan-summit-2/didn't really have panels or electrostatics on my radar. I like a lot of what they do but they are outside my comfort zone a bit. I did have a listen to some smaller ML a fait few years ago. I'd read that the panel doesn't integrate seamlessly with the bass module but I didn't find that to be the case when I heard them. Aside from the comfort zone thing they need to be plugged in though which counts them out as that's just too awkward in my room. It's what puts me off going for actives like Neuman or Genelec. Or the Kii3. I don't think I've ever heard a better speaker than the Kii3 - if we're going by better meaning 'perfection.' Although I'd still rather have the JBL4365 or 4367 even though technically they are not as good, they are more fun. I've got some good and bad news for you macca, we heard the Kii's (with the bass module) yesterday when we went for a demonstration of speakers, they were at the bottom of the pile, sounded detailed but coarse, no way a true hifi speaker. The good news is I can point you towards better speakers. Heard the Kii's briefly at Cranage and moved on. Got the same impression as you. I accept that shows aren't always a great way to assess speakers. |
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Post by macca on Aug 25, 2022 20:18:16 GMT
Well I do value your opinion Chris. And also you know my listening space. Tell you what mate. Let's do a temporary swap. Your MLs for my Tannoys. Then I do not have to convince the CEO on the height issue. Of course I'm not being serious. Haha, if you can magically heal my shoulder (torn it dumping various children into a paddling pool the other week, mostly mine) so we can struggle down two flights of stairs with some large, awkward shaped bass units which are over 50KG each and rent a transit van with a tail-gate lift to do the swap, I'd be up for it Edward! Indeed it would be a mammoth effort to be fair. But seriously you can pick up a decent pair of Logans for not a huge amount. They aren't particularly bothered about room shape and you certainly have the square footage to accommodate them. Back to the thread - macca those TAD's do look absolutely solid and will outlast any of us I would think, end game for sure. Considering your *serious* budget here I'm sure any dealer as interested in your cash as you are in getting some quality speakers, should give you a home demo. That would give you the answer straight away as to any models being slightly/significantly/no better than your current speakers. Also tells you exactly how well/badly they perform in your room and system. Can't mess around with these sums involved. You're right I should take my time instead of going with my usual impulse purchase method. |
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Post by antonio on Aug 26, 2022 4:58:50 GMT
macca Spot on, if you want a true end of game speaker, take your time, listen to a few just to get a feel for what you really like and can live with. You want a speaker that you are happy to listen to 6+hrs per day, not something that is impressive on switch on, but 2hrs later you've had enough of them.
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Post by Pigmy Pony on Aug 26, 2022 6:20:14 GMT
Those TAD speakers - some serious engineering there. 30kg! Almost the same weight as your JM Labs. Might be worth giving Tony at Coherent a call re. home demo. If you don't ask you don't get!
As you say, rather too much money at stake for impulse buying.
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Post by nonuffin on Aug 26, 2022 7:19:55 GMT
Those TAD speakers - some serious engineering there. 30kg! Almost the same weight as your JM Labs. Might be worth giving Tony at Coherent a call re. home demo. If you don't ask you don't get! As you say, rather too much money at stake for impulse buying. If you are having Tony doing a demo on TAD speakers, ask him to include some Quadrals in there too, you may be pleasantly surprised |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Aug 26, 2022 13:21:40 GMT
Haha, if you can magically heal my shoulder (torn it dumping various children into a paddling pool the other week, mostly mine) so we can struggle down two flights of stairs with some large, awkward shaped bass units which are over 50KG each and rent a transit van with a tail-gate lift to do the swap, I'd be up for it Edward! Indeed it would be a mammoth effort to be fair. But seriously you can pick up a decent pair of Logans for not a huge amount. They aren't particularly bothered about room shape and you certainly have the square footage to accommodate them. Back to the thread - macca those TAD's do look absolutely solid and will outlast any of us I would think, end game for sure. Considering your *serious* budget here I'm sure any dealer as interested in your cash as you are in getting some quality speakers, should give you a home demo. That would give you the answer straight away as to any models being slightly/significantly/no better than your current speakers. Also tells you exactly how well/badly they perform in your room and system. Can't mess around with these sums involved. You're right I should take my time instead of going with my usual impulse purchase method. If you take a long time I may have some Arke 'Ultimates' for you to home demo! 😉 |
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