optical
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Post by optical on Sept 24, 2021 12:21:22 GMT
The measurements in the article are pretty much evidence enough that the device does what it says it will do. I'm out of this thread. Please carry on. That's a shame Macca, I enjoy and respect your opinions but likewise understand your declaration if you feel it's not to your benefit. (Either in regards to this product or indeed going round and round in debate). |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 24, 2021 13:20:31 GMT
Yeah, shame to see macca step out of the conversation. He's probably banging his head against the wall! |
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Post by sq225917 on Sept 24, 2021 15:53:37 GMT
Jitter reduction devices are an odd one, they can't fix what's not there. If you have a good source, nice clock, no noise on the output, and a good dac than manages a nice tight jitter spread with no harmonics, down to say -140db they're not going to do anything.
On the other hand, if you have a noisy source with poor clock and an average dac then it might make things audibly better.
I'm a fan of the measurements that one forum provide on digital products, but their prediliction for testing noise reduction devices in noise free environments, not worst case setups strikes me as pointless.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 24, 2021 18:08:33 GMT
Jitter reduction devices are an odd one, they can't fix what's not there. If you have a good source, nice clock, no noise on the output, and a good dac than manages a nice tight jitter spread with no harmonics, down to say -140db they're not going to do anything. On the other hand, if you have a noisy source with poor clock and an average dac then it might make things audibly better. I'm a fan of the measurements that one forum provide on digital products, but their prediliction for testing noise reduction devices in noise free environments, not worst case setups strikes me as pointless. Ok, accepting that in the opinion of some, this device is doing nothing. Why has it changed the sound quality in my system? The measurements of the Soekris are available at ASR, and the DAC has waht seems to be very low Jitter. My unit has a better spec than the one on ASR and the mains leakage is now a non issue..so what's it doing...if it's doing nothing |
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Post by misterc on Sept 24, 2021 18:20:11 GMT
I must admit, the most interesting nothing improvement I had made for a very long time, therefore I must have a superbly vivid imagination sign me up for a group session therapy with a side helping of munchausen syndrome by proxy treatment Gentleman lets broaden our minds; Laurence......................................
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Post by antonio on Sept 25, 2021 0:47:14 GMT
'Bigman' will you be trying the Mutec on your streamer, and then maybe my question can be answered, can the Mutec be connected to two devices or do you need two of them  |
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 25, 2021 6:16:37 GMT
'Bigman' will you be trying the Mutec on your streamer, and then maybe my question can be answered, can the Mutec be connected to two devices or do you need two of them What do you mean? The Mutech is currently sat connected between the streamer and the DAC. |
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optical
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Post by optical on Sept 25, 2021 7:29:14 GMT
I don't mind getting into some wild theorising here, so try this.
Although the reduction in jitter may be taking place in the inaudible realm (this seems to be the accepted fact) is it possible that this has an effect on the way the rest of the sound is 'presented'.
I've pondered similar theories regarding removal of frequencies above the limit of human hearing in recordings, say at 50khz and above. The removal of which has a definite effect on the remaining audible frequencies. Could maybe a similar process be occuring here?
Another theory is that now the clocks inside the DAC are doing less 'work' and being presented with a more regular signal?
I don't know, hence my curiosity.
What were we saying about bonkers yesterday Oli?!
Spot on I'd say.....
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 25, 2021 8:19:29 GMT
I don't mind getting into some wild theorising here, so try this. Although the reduction in jitter may be taking place in the inaudible realm (this seems to be the accepted fact) is it possible that this has an effect on the way the rest of the sound is 'presented'. I've pondered similar theories regarding removal of frequencies above the limit of human hearing in recordings, say at 50khz and above. The removal of which has a definite effect on the remaining audible frequencies. Could maybe a similar process be occuring here? Another theory is that now the clocks inside the DAC are doing less 'work' and being presented with a more regular signal? I don't know, hence my curiosity. What were we saying about bonkers yesterday Oli?! Spot on I'd say..... I'd say youre spot on in regard to how frequencies in the audible range are affected by those out of it. Ihave been saying that for years and still get opposition to my opinion lol. I also know that in general terms, the less stress you put anything under, the better it performs? So the clock theory could also have some truth. BUT i also get what Macca is saying and by the looks of the armchair experts out there, i am not alone in reporting the benefits of this device, so it would be beneficial not only to me, but also to the device itself if there was some sort of reason for what i am hearing. Maybe we need to involve the bods at ASR for some theories?....or maybe they just lynch me lol |
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Post by antonio on Sept 25, 2021 11:11:24 GMT
'Bigman' will you be trying the Mutec on your streamer, and then maybe my question can be answered, can the Mutec be connected to two devices or do you need two of them What do you mean? The Mutech is currently sat connected between the streamer and the DAC.  This is a quote by MisterC "OK from a personal perspective, there has been NO dac yet I have tried a stock MC3+USB it has not made a very positive difference to what so ever, even the latest big fad of Holo May's which have decent jitter rection on the usb port , Rockna Wavedreams and MSB have all significantly benefitted even the super dooper Takio reference streamer is nicely improved with it also."
Even the super dooper Taiko reference streamer is nicely improved with it also, does that answer your question?
Thinking further on this, my only explanation is MisterC means, even when using the Taiko the sound quality can be improved, but to my mind it is still the dac that is improved and not the streamer. One final thing, come back Macca, this is a friendly forum, and where would all the fun be if it was not for me and a few disagreements  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 25, 2021 11:13:48 GMT
What do you mean? The Mutech is currently sat connected between the streamer and the DAC. This is a quote by MisterC "OK from a personal perspective, there has been NO dac yet I have tried a stock MC3+USB it has not made a very positive difference to what so ever, even the latest big fad of Holo May's which have decent jitter rection on the usb port , Rockna Wavedreams and MSB have all significantly benefitted even the super dooper Takio reference streamer is nicely improved with it also."
Even the super dooper Taiko reference streamer is nicely improved with it also, does that answer your question?
Thinking further on this, my only explanation is MisterC means, even when using the Taiko the sound quality can be improved, but to my mind it is still the dac that is improved and not the streamer. One final thing, come back Macca, this is a friendly forum, and where would all the fun be if it was not for me and a few disagreements Yes, he means EVEN the Taiko! |
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Post by misterc on Sept 25, 2021 11:22:59 GMT
Yes the Taiko as much vaulted as it is uses a STOCK motherboard, quite something eh?
I would also add to this the Antipoles K50 and the Rockna Wavedream NET as well (both of these are decent pieces). The interesting one is Holo May on USB and its ultra tight PLL, if you have a decent system, then yes you can precieve a difference, whether you appreciate that difference, that is personal.
The Taiko was in fairness a little disappointing in my system, its still very good and in a couple of systems its been special; but it depends on what you use as source personally.
But as Oli pointed out for the outlay is should really drive you to work, make the tea and do the garening for you as well for the cost.
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optical
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Post by optical on Sept 25, 2021 11:36:13 GMT
Spot on I'd say..... [/quote]
Just re-read this, I was referring to us being bonkers being 'spot-on' rather than my wild (and probably technically implausible theory).
That could have across as me blowing my own trumpet a bit!
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Post by antonio on Sept 25, 2021 12:31:08 GMT
Sometimes you have to blow your own trumpet, and don't I know it.
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Post by antonio on Sept 25, 2021 12:35:31 GMT
What do I mean? This is a quote by MisterC "OK from a personal perspective, there has been NO dac yet I have tried a stock MC3+USB it has not made a very positive difference to what so ever, even the latest big fad of Holo May's which have decent jitter rection on the usb port , Rockna Wavedreams and MSB have all significantly benefitted even the super dooper Takio reference streamer is nicely improved with it also."
Even the super dooper Taiko reference streamer is nicely improved with it also, does that answer your question?
Thinking further on this, my only explanation is MisterC means, even when using the Taiko the sound quality can be improved, but to my mind it is still the dac that is improved and not the streamer. One final thing, come back Macca, this is a friendly forum, and where would all the fun be if it was not for me and a few disagreements Yes, he means EVEN the Taiko! Now I can ask, what does that mean? Why are you making a simple question ridiculously difficult. Does the Mutec actually do any re-clocking on a streamer and improve it, or does it only re-clock the dac? I am not bothered whether we are talking about a Taiko or BlueNode streamer, does the Mutec improve them? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 25, 2021 12:37:29 GMT
Yes, he means EVEN the Taiko! Now I can ask, what does that mean? Why are you making a simple question ridiculously difficult. Does the Mutec actually do any re-clocking on a streamer and improve it, or does it only re-clock the dac? Sorry Dave, i wasn't aware i was! Ok, my understanding is that it reclocks the data from the streamer before delivering it to the DAC Other than that, i have no idea. |
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Post by antonio on Sept 25, 2021 12:46:26 GMT
Then it's re-clocking data for the dac, there is no clocking in a streamer. It is helping the dac and nothing to do with the steamer as far as I can see, I believe MisterC has worded his reply to me wrongly, which has caused the confusion, although I'm sure he can verify this.
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Post by macca on Sept 25, 2021 13:09:30 GMT
jitter isn't errors in the data as such, it's errors in the timing when data is sent from one device to another. The Mutec isn't 'relocking the data', it's improving the timing of the data transfer. if you wanted to use multiple such devices you'd string them together in a daisy chain between source (streamer, transport, whatever) and DAC. They don't 're-clock' another device. They go in between.
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Post by antonio on Sept 25, 2021 13:26:57 GMT
Thank you for an simple explanation Macca, why could someone not have explained that sooner, I'm looking at you MisterC |
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Post by misterc on Sept 25, 2021 13:59:40 GMT
Jitter simple explanation: The time the data signals theoretically should arrive at point 'b' Vs the time they actually arrive @ point 'b' the jitter measurement is the difference between those two actual figures. The incoming data stream in this case PCM pulse code modulation which is made up of three components Word/Frame clock/Bit serial clock/Serial Audio data, they can be configured in several way, Left / Right justified also TDM is used as well The word clock is extracted and use to 'bring together/time/improve the timing differences between the SCK and the Serial Audio data' The Muetc will do this between ANY source and destination piece so as explanted before a DAW (digital audio workstation/Streamer/CD Player/Transport/Digital recorder/Distribution hub) and the receiving end, Dac/digital to digital hub/A/V receiver/mixing console etc. (it improves the data alignment from point a to point b the components between can be very varied. The MSB and LSB shown below are Most and least signifcant bits, the MSB would always be assigned first
Macca rational is that below a certain point it is totally irrelevant and would produce zero difference with any dac or receiving devices that displays a sinad of below -130dB.
So far THE only dac I have looked at that could partially claim this is the Holo May on USB
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Post by macca on Sept 25, 2021 14:30:20 GMT
Macca rational is that below a certain point it is totally irrelevant and would produce zero difference with any dac or receiving devices that displays a sinad of below -130dB.
I have never said any such thing. By all means quote me but don't stick my name on something I didn't say.
What I will say is that even a twenty quid Alba DVD player you might find in a skip does not have audible levels of jitter. Not even close to audible. Not my rational., just a fact.
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Post by misterc on Sept 25, 2021 14:48:48 GMT
Macca rational is that below a certain point it is totally irrelevant and would produce zero difference with any dac or receiving devices that displays a sinad of below -130dB.I have never said any such thing. By all means quote me but don't stick my name on something I didn't say. What I will say is that even a twenty quid Alba DVD player you might find in a skip does not have audible levels of jitter. Not even close to audible. Not my rational., just a fact.
A great many people may just get seriously pissed off with anti vaxers and similar like minded people, but like the Murphy's I'm not bitter.
I am not talking skips here Martin at all.
If you have a skip or a pause/ quiet space in the playback that is just currputed data that can't be read, possibly due to a finger marks, scratchs or damage on the disc, where the data is un readable at that point on the disc by the laser tracking; even with the CIRC it cannot discern wherther that particular bit (s) are '1's or '0's.. That would be a fact yes.
I would suggest currently there are possible two dac's that could be possible called resistant to timing errors by tradition SD transfer methods in audio, but the DDC still have an effect, not such a greater degree. However it is audiable; and not just to so called bat eared audiofool reviewers or snake oil sellers.
This exchange can go all all day, however both sides being intransegent on their beliefs its a pointless stale mate so my suggestion would be an agreement to disagree
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Post by macca on Sept 25, 2021 16:51:53 GMT
lol when I said 'skip' I meant the things you park outside your house and put rubbish in...
Just to reiterate I am open to the idea that the Mutec and other such devices could do something to the sound quality. Just whatever that is it is not related to jitter reduction. Yes it can slightly reduce jitter. But the jitter was not even remotely audible even before the Mutec went in. So look for a better explanation.
Yes we could go on all day which is why I back out the first time.
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Post by stevew on Sept 25, 2021 17:12:51 GMT
Well.. I’m really not bothered about how it works. I do trust people’s experience .obviously Oliver’s in this instance.
And also real world experience from the likes of this chap on headfi.
I often would suggest people to consider buying a reclocking DDC before a new dac. It would be interesting to compare a Mutec MC-3+ USB (DDC) + AresII vs a venus ii with no reclocking DDC or straight usb input or using your regular non reclocking DDC. My guess will be that an Ares II user with Mutec will be a shockingly incredible performer reaching closer to a Venus. The power of reclocked , almost jitter free signal is a tremendous upgrade to any DAC on the market. Using an Aqua La scala, I could NOT tolerate using it if I had to use the USB implementation. I require the use of my Mutec MC-3+ (using coax). Even with such a R2R dac it gets substantially better with a treated reclocked signal.
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Post by lurch on Sept 25, 2021 18:06:05 GMT
From my understanding of reading the thread, YES, it improves the streamer as it takes the clock signal from the streamers digital data feed (via coax etc) does its magic then feeds it to the DAC.
My understanding is that the DAC takes its timing clues from the data its being feed.
So streamer (+ multiple other digital equipment feeds) > Mutec > DAC
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 25, 2021 18:42:40 GMT
Just to reiterate.....i think this device is the dogs bollocks.
I have no idea how it works, why it works or even IF it should work.
I am facing having to return it as it's not playing ball with USB, and I can tell you this:
I am abso-F@cking-lutely livid. Not the guys fault as we think it's happened in transit, but they don't come up cheap and guaranteed the money will end up elsewhere in our house.
Livid.
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Post by electronumpty on Sept 25, 2021 19:02:46 GMT
can mrc fix it?
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Post by stevew on Sept 25, 2021 19:24:35 GMT
Jesus…
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 25, 2021 19:29:15 GMT
Well, it's a weird one as I have FINALLY got it to work with 1 laptop via USB, out of the three in the house. But it still won't accept Coax in.
Thing is, I shouldn't have to fix it.
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Post by stevew on Sept 25, 2021 19:37:56 GMT
Well, it's a weird one as I have FINALLY got it to work with 1 laptop via USB, out of the three in the house. But it still won't accept Coax in. Thing is, I shouldn't have to fix it. You really shouldn’t Would it be covered under your sellers warranty? Insurance? |
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This is a quote by MisterC "OK from a personal perspective, there has been NO dac yet I have tried a stock MC3+USB it has not made a very positive difference to what so ever, even the latest big fad of Holo May's which have decent jitter rection on the usb port , Rockna Wavedreams and MSB have all significantly benefitted even the super dooper Takio reference streamer is nicely improved with it also."
