Hi guys , so I’ve just managed to temporarily finish the amp.
I’ve lashed in some cheap as chips RCA plugs to get me going until my fancy ones arrive .
It’s been burning in for a couple of days now with no issues and I’ve just plugged into my equipment and there is no buzz, hum, smoke other other nasties as of yet. 🤞🙏
I will have a shower while things warm up and let you know if any sound comes out .
Looks great though. A real brute . Pushing 25kg I reckon . Makes the Croft’s look tiny ... amd there’s two of them
Seriously, they're one of 5he best amps in the world at any price if what you want is pure signal.
💯 mate. I was just saying that it still sounds like my Croft monos are plugged in but with a bit more detail and transparency .
I then realised that the 686 is so pure and neutral that it still sounds like my Croft monos are plugged in because my Croft pre is now putting its signature on the sound and the 686 is invisible . I now realise that the 25R is also the bottleneck in my system and I need a new pre 🙈
The madness continues.
Bigman80
Grandmaster The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Seriously, they're one of 5he best amps in the world at any price if what you want is pure signal.
💯 mate. I was just saying that it still sounds like my Croft monos are plugged in but with a bit more detail and transparency .
I then realised that the 686 is so pure and neutral that it still sounds like my Croft monos are plugged in because my Croft pre is now putting its signature on the sound and the 686 is invisible . I now realise that the 25R is also the bottleneck in my system and I need a new pre 🙈
That looks awesome and so glad that it works - well done that man
For those who are interested Main System: Highly modified Michell Orbe with SME V arm and Denon DL103M (FGS) cart, Firebottle OTP MKII Technics SP-10 in Obsidian plinth with AT1010 PMAC v8b arm and Goldring Elite MC cartridge, BB3 Leak Lenco GL75 with A&R P77 cartridge plus NSC PSU Raspberry PI with R-2R DAC and 7inch touch screen running Volumio 3.0 Marantz CD50SE Technics RS-BX404 Cassette Deck Audiolab 8000A (1985 model) Reiver Jenna full height speakers
💯 mate. I was just saying that it still sounds like my Croft monos are plugged in but with a bit more detail and transparency .
I then realised that the 686 is so pure and neutral that it still sounds like my Croft monos are plugged in because my Croft pre is now putting its signature on the sound and the 686 is invisible . I now realise that the 25R is also the bottleneck in my system and I need a new pre 🙈
The madness continues.
Told ya
I know mate , I was expecting a big dramatic improvement but I didn’t realy get it because the 25R is holding things back .
Don’t get me wrong it still is and was fabulous before and now so I’m happy .
As always there is trade offs . I have a little bit more details, transparency and grip at the expense of soundstage size . I think diminishing returns kicks in at our level too.
We need to get you right again mate so you can build me this preamp .
Bigman80
Grandmaster The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
I know mate , I was expecting a big dramatic improvement but I didn’t realy get it because the 25R is holding things back .
Don’t get me wrong it still is and was fabulous before and now so I’m happy .
As always there is trade offs . I have a little bit more details, transparency and grip at the expense of soundstage size . I think diminishing returns kicks in at our level too.
We need to get you right again mate so you can build me this preamp .
The Soundstage is always bigger when you use anything with valves in. That's been my experience anyway, but that's not always truthful.
The 686 is a TRUTHFUL amplifier. It will deliver what is there and it won't emphasise anything.
It's an amplifier that I regard as a reference piece in that regard.
What you'll notice (when the preamp lands) is that your recordings start to sound very different to each other.
This is what I strived for in my system and once you have heard that, you will then know how good the amplifier is and you won't be able to go back.
Just read this detailed build from beginning to end this morning nice and early with lots of crisp snow outside. I expect its just a bit different outside where you are Karl?
Great photos and a fabulous looking piece of kit hopefully with a fabulous sound. Looks like a fairly straightforward project and must say you executed it superbly with really good photos capturing each stage all the way. Really nice to read and see a project so well done here on Audio Addicts. Your build is an inspiration for many I am sure Karl.
Of course me being a Croft fan I would be desperate to know if this would be the best route for me to go as I need to give my new floor standers a bit more juice and grunt however I think it would be an interesting decision if I could hear the 7R monos against the 686.
Last night I was chatting with Oli about the possibility of going down the 686 route myself as the cost for lots more power would be almost half that of a pair of new 7R monos ! But this may not be the only deciding factor for me to move away from Croft.
The BIG question is would a 686 give me more grunt and drive my speakers better than the 7Rs. Only you can answer this because no one on this forum has heard the difference back to back like you have Karl. I am not keen on a smaller soundstage or a smidgeon more transparency and I am certainly not interested in hearing the truth because I like valves and vinyl! I have a feeling I would like the 7R monos very much and I am sure they would drive my speakers very well indeed and give me just what I am looking for. But is the 686 a better route and does it sound that much better?
Just read this detailed build from beginning to end this morning nice and early with lots of crisp snow outside. I expect its just a bit different outside where you are Karl?
Great photos and a fabulous looking piece of kit hopefully with a fabulous sound. Looks like a fairly straightforward project and must say you executed it superbly with really good photos capturing each stage all the way. Really nice to read and see a project so well done here on Audio Addicts. Your build is an inspiration for many I am sure Karl.
Of course me being a Croft fan I would be desperate to know if this would be the best route for me to go as I need to give my new floor standers a bit more juice and grunt however I think it would be an interesting decision if I could hear the 7R monos against the 686.
Last night I was chatting with Oli about the possibility of going down the 686 route myself as the cost for lots more power would be almost half that of a pair of new 7R monos ! But this may not be the only deciding factor for me to move away from Croft.
The BIG question is would a 686 give me more grunt and drive my speakers better than the 7Rs. Only you can answer this because no one on this forum has heard the difference back to back like you have Karl. I am not keen on a smaller soundstage or a smidgeon more transparency and I am certainly not interested in hearing the truth because I like valves and vinyl! I have a feeling I would like the 7R monos very much and I am sure they would drive my speakers very well indeed and give me just what I am looking for. But is the 686 a better route and does it sound that much better?
Tough question.
You could answer this yourself Jim. I would be happy to re-loan you my 686 for a few days, but i sincerely believe that using croft Preamp will be more influential on the performance of the 686 than most people realise.
I tried a Croft preamp with the 686 and it became dynamically flat, 2D and like the life had been sucked out of both units. When i dropped the croft preamp onto a Valve amplifier, it came alive and made fantastic music.
When i put the Neurochrome 8x2 on the valve amp it killed the sound. Yet when the 8x2 and 686 were together, they sounded amazing.
There are items of kit that sound better together and Croft is one of them IMHO.
I think a 686 would definitely give you the grunt you desire, but i dont think the croft Pre and 686 would work well together. Compromise of the soundstage size etc...
What about a huge Conrad Johnson? They drove huge speakers with those!
Or a Beard P100:
"For a very short period Beard-Audio made the P100 with Partridge outputtransformers which are double c-core and should be on the level of Tamura- or Tango output-transformers. I had the chance to compare it to the stock P100. The difference was stunning. I still believe it is one of the worlds finest KT88 poweramps. Particular if used with original Genalex KT88's or MO-Valve Gold-Lions (not to be mixed up with the modern fake Gold-Lions made in China).
Even compared to a top-of-the line Jadis KT88 valve-poweramps the Beard not only stood its ground but imho sounded superior.
As far as I know only very few were made on special demand, hardly anybody knows about them.
They just sound musical and very open with such a detailed airy top-end. Bass is deep but at the same time airy-palpable. There is this rare homogeneous continuity from bass to midrange and treble"
That is my fear Oli even after my limited experience hooking the 686 up to the Croft 25R. I do need to try again to put my mind at ease.
I dont really want to loose my whole Croft system for the sake of upgrading the power amp as good as the 686 maybe - too drastic for Jimbo! I like the Croft sound and as you appreciate I am keen to stay with Croft. I am really only needing a bit more power and control not a wholesale makeover of the system.
I should try a 686 and then maybe that will give me the answer I need.
Your power amp suggestions are great mate but I do wonder if I would be better just biting the bullet and spending some cash on 7R monos or even start with 7 monos and uprade if necessary?
Bigman80
Grandmaster The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
That is my fear Oli even after my limited experience hooking the 686 up to the Croft 25R. I do need to try again to put my mind at ease.
I dont really want to loose my whole Croft system for the sake of upgrading the power amp as good as the 686 maybe - too drastic for Jimbo! I like the Croft sound and as you appreciate I am keen to stay with Croft. I am really only needing a bit more power and control not a wholesale makeover of the system.
I should try a 686 and then maybe that will give me the answer I need.
Your power amp suggestions are great mate but I do wonder if I would be better just biting the bullet and spending some cash on 7R monos or even start with 7 monos and uprade if necessary?
If my HiFi journey has taught me anything, it's that other peoples opinions should only be used as a baseline. The only real way to know what will happen is by trying it yourself.
In my Hifi adventure i was loaned a great deal of HiFi equipment....i'm talking loads of it. I probably only reviewed 1/4 of it and as someone who has read a lot of my output, that should give you a fair idea of how much stuff i have tried!
Most of the opinions held by others on that gear rarely matched mine.
I am more than happy to loan you my 686 and my BT2, although that would mean you had to do any comparison with your JustBOOM, which may not be ideal. The BT2 would potentially just illustrate what i am saying in terms of synergy. You could try it and see what happens. you could use Vinyl for the Croft pre and 686 combo, which is where you are likely to be most interested.
Its a "free hit" and IMO you'd be bonkers not to do it before spending any money. At least you will have a definitive answer from your own ears.
That is my fear Oli even after my limited experience hooking the 686 up to the Croft 25R. I do need to try again to put my mind at ease.
I dont really want to loose my whole Croft system for the sake of upgrading the power amp as good as the 686 maybe - too drastic for Jimbo! I like the Croft sound and as you appreciate I am keen to stay with Croft. I am really only needing a bit more power and control not a wholesale makeover of the system.
I should try a 686 and then maybe that will give me the answer I need.
Your power amp suggestions are great mate but I do wonder if I would be better just biting the bullet and spending some cash on 7R monos or even start with 7 monos and uprade if necessary?
If my HiFi journey has taught me anything, it's that other peoples opinions should only be used as a baseline. The only real way to know what will happen is by trying it yourself.
In my Hifi adventure i was loaned a great deal of HiFi equipment....i'm talking loads of it. I probably only reviewed 1/4 of it and as someone who has read a lot of my output, that should give you a fair idea of how much stuff i have tried!
I am more than happy to loan you my 686 and my BT2, although that would mean you had to do any comparison with your JustBOOM, which may not be ideal. The BT2 would potentially just illustrate what i am saying in terms of synergy. You could try it and see what happens. you could use Vinyl for the Croft pre and 686 combo, which is where you are likely to be most interested.
Its a "free hit" and IMO you'd be bonkers not to do it before spending any money. At least you will have a definitive answer from your own ears.
Yes I have heard and tried a fair bit of kit too in my 43 year hifi journey!
There is nothing like experiencing something in your own system to tell you the truth no matter how painful that can be!
Bigman80
Grandmaster The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
If my HiFi journey has taught me anything, it's that other peoples opinions should only be used as a baseline. The only real way to know what will happen is by trying it yourself.
In my Hifi adventure i was loaned a great deal of HiFi equipment....i'm talking loads of it. I probably only reviewed 1/4 of it and as someone who has read a lot of my output, that should give you a fair idea of how much stuff i have tried!
I am more than happy to loan you my 686 and my BT2, although that would mean you had to do any comparison with your JustBOOM, which may not be ideal. The BT2 would potentially just illustrate what i am saying in terms of synergy. You could try it and see what happens. you could use Vinyl for the Croft pre and 686 combo, which is where you are likely to be most interested.
Its a "free hit" and IMO you'd be bonkers not to do it before spending any money. At least you will have a definitive answer from your own ears.
Yes I have heard and tried a fair bit of kit too in my 43 year hifi journey!
There is nothing like experiencing something in your own system to tell you the truth no matter how painful that can be!
Exactly!
I know you are an experienced audio addict matey. I also realise I'm teaching you how to suck eggs, but I think sometimes a little reminder of what we already know can be helpful.
Loan the 686.... See what happens. No harm is there.
Sorry Karl if this conversation needs to be moved I am sure Oli could pop it onto my JimBlog?
I would have to buy 7R monos first and then get them upgraded for more power so the price I mention is a starting price as 7R monos are £2800 new then they would need to be upgraded so we could be talking £4000 but if I did it with second hand 7R monos I might be able to just scrape in around £3000!
As you have rightly suggested though Oli I feel the 686 may not be the best option for me with the current 25R so if I had to change this aswell I could soon be talking the same figure.
So if I want to keep the sound I have which I am very happy with and increase power and control to the Hecos I should be looking at a Croft solution.
There are in fact there are 5 options to try.
1. Uprade my Series 7 to a 7R
2. Buy another 7 amp and run it as a mono with my current amp which I have done previously
3. Buy another 7 amp cheap and have both amps upgraded to 7R spec monos
4. Buy 7R monos second hand
5. Buy 7R monos and have them upgraded.
Obviously as I move through the options the price increases but so does the potential benefits.
Bigman80
Grandmaster The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Sorry Karl if this conversation needs to be moved I am sure Oli could pop it onto my JimBlog?
I would have to buy 7R monos first and then get them upgraded for more power so the price I mention is a starting price as 7R monos are £2800 new then they would need to be upgraded so we could be talking £4000 but if I did it with second hand 7R monos I might be able to just scrape in around £3000!
As you have rightly suggested though Oli I feel the 686 may not be the best option for me with the current 25R so if I had to change this aswell I could soon be talking the same figure.
So if I want to keep the sound I have which I am very happy with and increase power and control to the Hecos I should be looking at a Croft solution.
There are in fact there are 5 options to try.
1. Uprade my Series 7 to a 7R
2. Buy another 7 amp and run it as a mono with my current amp which I have done previously
3. Buy another 7 amp cheap and have both amps upgraded to 7R spec monos
4. Buy 7R monos second hand
5. Buy 7R monos and have them upgraded.
Obviously as I move through the options the price increases but so does the potential benefits.
What's the scenario with your preamp, Jim. Is that the best it can be?
Should you upgrade your amplifiers, would there then be a need to do something to lift the pre?
worth remembering that the Croft amps are solid state MOSFET designs, they just use a valve input stage.
If I was you I'd contact Audioflair ask him to send you the monos to try out. Or Hi-Fi Dave at Radlett Audio. Sure they'd send them to you on approval.
Alternative - go the Neurochrome route and use a valve phono stage for vinyl. Best of all worlds.
''I think a lot of digital people are just bored because there's little to tweak.
Suddenly boutique network cables, switches and usb cables are a thing you're into because, well what else is there except listening to music?''
Hi guys ,no need to move the thread it’s absolutely fine here . It’s on the subject so I’m fine with it .
You’re right Jim it’s very different here today. 32 degrees and very humid . We’re all melting 🤣.... sorry to rub it in
I honestly have to say I don’t see any reason why this 686 doesn’t work well enough with the 25R . It sounds absolutely fine to me to my ears .
In fact when I first had a proper listening session I messaged Oli to say that it still sounds like the Croft monos are plugged in . The reason I believe is that the neuro is so neutral and transparent that the Croft pre is now in influencing the sound and it has kept its sonic signature . Something I think you would be happy about.
It has gained a smidge more detail and transparency, but lost some of that huge valve monoblock soundstage . It’s not narrow by any means but I can tell it’s closed in by maybe a metre either side . However at the moment it’s a pretty close call between both amps . When you’re at this level changes aren’t usually massive anyway as diminishing returns kick in , however , I believe and have done for some time that the monos and the 686 deserve a better preamp to shine.
As good as the 25R is for its price it is definitely bottlenecking the potential of my system which is why the change and improvements weren’t as big as expected . I’m just worried when my new SS preamp arrives that the soundstage will close up even more when I take another set of valves from the scene.
It will be interesting to see wether I prefer the monos or the 686 with a preamp capable of showing them off properly . Looking at Alan’s new post it certainly seems that the preamp is very capable of doing that , and Oliver agrees too so it’s just a waiting game now until the final parts arrive .
The 686 definitely grabs the Dynaudio C30i by the short and curlies and they are big boys , similar size to the heco . But the monos also drove them with ease too so no worries there .
The monos are currently 2800 squid, my neuro build cost me about 2200 as I went too spec dual mono throughout, so not a massive difference price wise but you could save another few hundred and build the boards yourself and even a bit more using smps instead of toroid and PSU boards but I would advise against that unless you really had to. Also speaker protection is optional too so as a guess I reckon you could get it done around 1800 quid in basic form . And it really is easy enough to do yourself which would save labour costs .
My plan is to see how this new preamp fares and if the neuro takes too spot which I expect it to on specs alone , then the monos will be in the classifieds and you can have first dibs on them at a sensible price . Then you can use the rest of your funds to upgrade your preamp to full RS spec or beyond and you will be set for life . They are that good . Failing that you could build the neuro and then upgrade the preamp when possible . I’m sure Glenn could tweak it to be a perfect match for the neuro if you are worried about that ?
But this may not be the only deciding factor for me to move away from Croft.
