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Post by macca on Nov 8, 2020 10:25:22 GMT
Been using the KSA100 with just the Soncoz DAC as a pre-amp, most successful combination I have tried recently. Just no need to have the DCB1 in between. Still a slightly coloured presentation, the different characters of recordings are not made obvious. But easy to forgive that for all the other things that it does right that most amps just don't manage.
One other option not discussed yet is Radford. They also have the magical qualities, power a bit on the low side but I think would still be adequate. A s/h ST25 is doable for around the same money as the other alternatives.
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Post by jimbo on Nov 8, 2020 10:26:00 GMT
I do Karl and I will snap a pair up if the come up for sale....what happened to yours?
I still have mine Jim. I’ve just had a really nice result by adding the genelex gold lion gold pins into the regulation stage . It was quite clear they were better than the JJs . With the 56 RCA in the input stage and gold lions it offers so much detail and focus and holographic imagery. I’ve just sold my spendors which will free up some money to build the dual mono 686. Once this happens then mine might be up for sale. Will likely be a couple of months away yet though. I think that’s the only amp that will make me part ways with them If I am not sorted by then let me know Karl as I would be interested. To be honest a couple of Croft 7R monos will be game over in my book.
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Post by jimbo on Nov 8, 2020 10:27:53 GMT
I think before I venture down the mighty Krell route I will have to listen to one in my system, maybe loan one to hear....?
You're welcome to have a loan of either of mine. Thanks Martin, I may well take you up on that just to try. How about if I have a listen after Alan has finished with it?
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Post by macca on Nov 8, 2020 10:33:02 GMT
I think a 90w special built Croft would probably leave you with a permanent smile on your face Jim. I love the Krell 100, but you can hear its signature on everything you play. This came to wear on me and I know it would wear on you too. As good as its signature sounds, and it is mighty fine, a good amp is a transparent amp. You shouldn't hear it. It shouldn't impose itself either. Bags of power, smooth effortless delivery and can dig out remarkable levels of bass. The Croft route is something you are comfortable with, know well and have been down with Glenn for a long time. I see the appeal for you but I'll just say this: For around £2K you can get something from Benchmark, Neurochrome, Starkrimson, Nord, Apollon, Hypex...... ALL off these amplifiers will show any Croft amplifier a clean pair of heels in terms of detail, speed, transients, transparency, macro and micro detail and all of them are chameleon like. You don't know they are there.....maybe you do a little with the Nord, Apollon and Hypex as they all have a little synthetic tinge about them. For me, especially at this point, it wasn't the tonality or the soundstage etc that I instantly missed when the legendary 880 speakers left, it was the transparency. The ability's to hear what is happening without feeling like I am slightly detached or at arms length from the music. The Crofts may give you that one thing, but so will the other but they will give you more too. Loan some amps. Ask orchardaudio for a loan of the Starkrimson as I loaned them and in truth, If i hadn't already committed to the 686, I probably would have bought them. Loan a Krell off Macca, loan my 686. Hear what you can in your system and see what happens before you line Glenn's pocket. Just so you KNOW you made the right choice I dont agree that all of the amps you have suggested will show the Croft amps a clean pair of heals. Listening last night I could close my eyes and I was there, total transparency without any notion of electronics doing their thang! Most of the amps your recommend have transformers which always have a sonic influence... the Croft you forget is an OTL and is not handicapped by this.
Many SS amps I have heard can have a slightly dry synthetic sound too them and although the bigger ones can give you some meat and flesh they dont sound as transparent as by Croft. The neurochrome *maybe* an exception but as yet unproven.
Good recommendation to try other stuff if I can get my hands on it...and I will try and get hold of a few.
Dont forget the only thing I am missing is power and control.
Only valve amps have output transformers, the Croft Series 7 is a solid state amp using MosFETs which is why it doesn't have an output transformer, but it still has a transformer like any amplifier does. I had a Series 7 for a while and there is a whole level of transparency beyond what it can do, good though it is for the money. Get my 50S from Alan's place and give that a go, you will hopefully see what I mean.
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Post by macca on Nov 8, 2020 10:34:54 GMT
You're welcome to have a loan of either of mine. Thanks Martin, I may well take you up on that just to try. How about if I have a listen after Alan has finished with it? our posts crossed Yes he has fixed it so go and get it off him and try it. May not be for you but at least you'll know for sure. Only trouble is if you like it they are very rare and I'm not selling mine!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 8, 2020 10:42:01 GMT
I think a 90w special built Croft would probably leave you with a permanent smile on your face Jim. I love the Krell 100, but you can hear its signature on everything you play. This came to wear on me and I know it would wear on you too. As good as its signature sounds, and it is mighty fine, a good amp is a transparent amp. You shouldn't hear it. It shouldn't impose itself either. Bags of power, smooth effortless delivery and can dig out remarkable levels of bass. The Croft route is something you are comfortable with, know well and have been down with Glenn for a long time. I see the appeal for you but I'll just say this: For around £2K you can get something from Benchmark, Neurochrome, Starkrimson, Nord, Apollon, Hypex...... ALL off these amplifiers will show any Croft amplifier a clean pair of heels in terms of detail, speed, transients, transparency, macro and micro detail and all of them are chameleon like. You don't know they are there.....maybe you do a little with the Nord, Apollon and Hypex as they all have a little synthetic tinge about them. For me, especially at this point, it wasn't the tonality or the soundstage etc that I instantly missed when the legendary 880 speakers left, it was the transparency. The ability's to hear what is happening without feeling like I am slightly detached or at arms length from the music. The Crofts may give you that one thing, but so will the other but they will give you more too. Loan some amps. Ask orchardaudio for a loan of the Starkrimson as I loaned them and in truth, If i hadn't already committed to the 686, I probably would have bought them. Loan a Krell off Macca, loan my 686. Hear what you can in your system and see what happens before you line Glenn's pocket. Just so you KNOW you made the right choice I dont agree that all of the amps you have suggested will show the Croft amps a clean pair of heals. Listening last night I could close my eyes and I was there, total transparency without any notion of electronics doing their thang! Most of the amps your recommend have transformers which always have a sonic influence... the Croft you forget is an OTL and is not handicapped by this.
Many SS amps I have heard can have a slightly dry synthetic sound too them and although the bigger ones can give you some meat and flesh they dont sound as transparent as by Croft. The neurochrome *maybe* an exception but as yet unproven.
Good recommendation to try other stuff if I can get my hands on it...and I will try and get hold of a few.
Dont forget the only thing I am missing is power and control.
With all due respect Jim, Until you get those "Thrupence a'pney" potentiometers out of your Croft preamp, you aren't gonna know how transparent anything is, because a potentiometer is the biggest bottleneck in any system. Everything after it is affected by it and crippled by it. You'd need something like a TKD, Giles&Penny type pot before you could start hearing your system properly. That's why I have been trying to get you to loan the biscuit tin and the 686 again, now they're fixed 🤣. Not to be judged as better or anything like that, but just to demonstrate how much is being hidden in your gear with the potentiometers and the crude brass connections that are fitted on 90% of audio kit. I said to you ages ago, it doesn't make one iota of difference to me whether you like the sound or not, it's just to show what is or isn't missing. IMO the Croft are not in the same league as the Krell 50, The Starkrimson or the Neurochrome amplifiers for absolute transparency. Don't forget, I've had numerous pieces of croft gear here and done those comparisons over the years. The Croft may imply a more spacious soundstage, as almost all valve gear does, but it also inherently suffers the same issues as anything with a valve in it....... higher distortion, even if it's only there before the MOSFETs. It will have higher distortion than SS gear and the MOSFETs drive the pre-achieved distortion. It may be OTL, but it's still driving a valve input stage. What the Croft excelled at is being listenable over a long period. It's not got the resolution or Total transparency of the aforementioned Amps but as we've said, it's not always about those factors for some listeners. And I respect that, but I'm afraid no one can claim a valve amp to be as transparent or have as high resolution as a SS amp...it's technically not possible. I was asked very recently if anyone I know has a system as listenable as I find my own....I said yours. Because it is, but it's a different kind of system.
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Post by firebottle on Nov 8, 2020 10:47:01 GMT
Out of interest Jimbo, how would you describe the sound of the Firebottle amps compared to Croft? Only asking as I have been asked the question by someone interested in my amps. I have heard the monos a few times when Alan first built them when he copied the Croft design. For the record I was 'inspired' by the Croft, I didn't copy it. There are other designs that use a valve driver stage and Mosfet output. The Firebottle mono's use different Mosfets with a lower working impedance with the biasing arrangement fully regulated. The driver stage is also fully regulated, has linearising techniques and has a much lower output impedance than that in the Croft.
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Post by macca on Nov 8, 2020 10:49:57 GMT
Actually the Tube Distinctions Copper power amps do have that level of transparency even though they are all valve. But it comes at a price!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 8, 2020 10:53:18 GMT
Actually the Tube Distinctions Copper power amps do have that level of transparency even though they are all valve. But it comes at a price! I'd put the cost of those JBLs on them not having as low distortion numbers! SNR ratio? Channel Separation? I'd suspect even a modest Sansui AU-D11 would win on paper.
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Post by macca on Nov 8, 2020 10:58:35 GMT
Actually the Tube Distinctions Copper power amps do have that level of transparency even though they are all valve. But it comes at a price! I'd put the cost of those JBLs on them not having as low distortion numbers! SNR ratio? Channel Separation? I'd suspect even a modest Sansui AU-D11 would win on paper. No idea but you know I am fussy about that sort of thing and I couldn't fault them in the listening. And I deliberately picked 'difficult' recordings, no audiophile stuff. Think you're looking at seven grand though. But in the context of today's high end prices that is giving them away.
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bigbird
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Post by bigbird on Nov 8, 2020 11:07:17 GMT
Yeah I have to admit that this is the one and only area that the 7r monos are lacking in getting to reference level and that is ultimate transparency .
They have all the other great attributes mentioned above and are completely non fatiguing which is really appealing but when Oliver and I share videos I can hear that this is where his neurochrome excels. It’s scarily transparent . As always in this game there’s a trade off unless your loaded
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Post by electronumpty on Nov 8, 2020 11:17:20 GMT
I have heard the monos a few times when Alan first built them when he copied the Croft design. For the record I was 'inspired' by the Croft, I didn't copy it. There are other designs that use a valve driver stage and Mosfet output. The Firebottle mono's use different Mosfets with a lower working impedance with the biasing arrangement fully regulated. The driver stage is also fully regulated, has linearising techniques and has a much lower output impedance than that in the Croft. Well, mine sound great, never heard a Croft so can't compare. Think the ones I bought from Oliver are 90watts per channel iirc.
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Post by jimbo on Nov 8, 2020 11:19:48 GMT
I have heard the monos a few times when Alan first built them when he copied the Croft design. For the record I was 'inspired' by the Croft, I didn't copy it. There are other designs that use a valve driver stage and Mosfet output. The Firebottle mono's use different Mosfets with a lower working impedance with the biasing arrangement fully regulated. The driver stage is also fully regulated, has linearising techniques and has a much lower output impedance than that in the Croft. Inspired /Copied -they are very similar. The Croft 7R is regulated which also lowers the impedance. Also uses Mosfet output and OTL. Very very similar.?
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Post by jimbo on Nov 8, 2020 11:27:35 GMT
One mans transparency maybe different to anothers. I know what I hear and have been in this game a very long time listening to all sorts of stuff and the technical arguments dont always add up.
Distortion can be your friend and thats why I like Valve amps and vinyl. I do not like completely linear flat sterile gear that has all the detail and maybe transparency but no emotion and soul.
I look for different things from a system that involve my senses not just absolute technically *accurate* equipment most of which I have heard leaves me non plussed. I have heard the Krell and it has a lot of the qualities I like. Would be interesting to hear one in the context of my own system.
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Post by firebottle on Nov 8, 2020 12:23:47 GMT
As Martin has OK'ed it I will get the 50S round to you James, then you will have ticked one box.
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Post by jimbo on Nov 8, 2020 13:02:12 GMT
As Martin has OK'ed it I will get the 50S round to you James, then you will have ticked one box. Cheers Alan. Might have to just leave it outside the house. We will discuss.
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orchardaudio
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Post by orchardaudio on Nov 8, 2020 20:29:09 GMT
Loan some amps. Ask orchardaudio for a loan of the Starkrimson as I loaned them and in truth, If i hadn't already committed to the 686, I probably would have bought them. Loaning equipment internationally is not so easy, shipping costs are killer. But if you guys get a group of 3 plus people together to do a tour we can arrange this.
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Post by sq225917 on Nov 9, 2020 19:41:05 GMT
Id be happy to take part, do you a write up on pfm and audioflat.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2020 8:20:15 GMT
Interesting. The grip on the speakers is why I am building the 686. They seem to like the Arcam Alpha 10P power. More wont hurt.
My speakers are relatively easy to move, being a mere 27Kg. The rubber feet, and a hard floor are the main reason why.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 13, 2020 9:48:39 GMT
Interesting. The grip on the speakers is why I am building the 686. They seem to like the Arcam Alpha 10P power. More wont hurt. My speakers are relatively easy to move, being a mere 27Kg. The rubber feet, and a hard floor are the main reason why. POWER!!!!!! This is what you need..
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Post by brian2957 on Nov 13, 2020 9:56:46 GMT
Sounds like you're getting there James . There are certain aspects of audio gear which will only improve with use and it seems like you have highlighted a couple . It's good that you have several positioning options which may optimise things . It's also good that you can borrow some very good quality muscle amps to help things along
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Post by macca on Nov 13, 2020 12:13:08 GMT
I suspect the problem is the low impedance in the bass. When I had a Series 7 it was not keen on the very low impedance dip of the Celestion A2 speaker. It actually blew a fuse when I cranked the levels up. Upgrading to a 7R will probably sort that. I don't think it is actually a lack of watts that is the issue.
it's obvious from their measurements that the Hecos are not bass-light.
Comparing the various power amps I have lying about into the JM Lab speakers which have a similar impedance trace to the Hecos it's clear that those that are unphased by low impedance sound better in the bass, more grip, more depth, more of everything. I was not entirely happy with the bass response of the speakers until I stuck a Krell on them. However a Linn LK100 also performs well with them in that respect.
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Post by jimbo on Nov 13, 2020 13:02:50 GMT
I suspect the problem is the low impedance in the bass. When I had a Series 7 it was not keen on the very low impedance dip of the Celestion A2 speaker. It actually blew a fuse when I cranked the levels up. Upgrading to a 7R will probably sort that. I don't think it is actually a lack of watts that is the issue. it's obvious from their measurements that the Hecos are not bass-light. Comparing the various power amps I have lying about into the JM Lab speakers which have a similar impedance trace to the Hecos it's clear that those that are unphased by low impedance sound better in the bass, more grip, more depth, more of everything. I was not entirely happy with the bass response of the speakers until I stuck a Krell on them. However a Linn LK100 also performs well with them in that respect. Thanks for the advice Martin. I am not exactly sure how to work out if the Hecos are low impedance but if they are then a 7R will sort them out. I have a feeling this is where I am going.
I would like some 7R mono blocks but as rare as hens teeth second hand.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 13, 2020 13:03:46 GMT
I suspect the problem is the low impedance in the bass. When I had a Series 7 it was not keen on the very low impedance dip of the Celestion A2 speaker. It actually blew a fuse when I cranked the levels up. Upgrading to a 7R will probably sort that. I don't think it is actually a lack of watts that is the issue. it's obvious from their measurements that the Hecos are not bass-light. Comparing the various power amps I have lying about into the JM Lab speakers which have a similar impedance trace to the Hecos it's clear that those that are unphased by low impedance sound better in the bass, more grip, more depth, more of everything. I was not entirely happy with the bass response of the speakers until I stuck a Krell on them. However a Linn LK100 also performs well with them in that respect. Thanks for the advice Martin. I am not exactly sure how to work out if the Hecos are low impedance but if they are then a 7R will sort them out. I have a feeling this is where I am going.
I would like some 7R mono blocks but as rare as hens teeth second hand. Are the Croft 7 range of differing impedance? Edit....were talking speaker impedance lol
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Post by macca on Nov 13, 2020 13:34:46 GMT
I suspect the problem is the low impedance in the bass. When I had a Series 7 it was not keen on the very low impedance dip of the Celestion A2 speaker. It actually blew a fuse when I cranked the levels up. Upgrading to a 7R will probably sort that. I don't think it is actually a lack of watts that is the issue. it's obvious from their measurements that the Hecos are not bass-light. Comparing the various power amps I have lying about into the JM Lab speakers which have a similar impedance trace to the Hecos it's clear that those that are unphased by low impedance sound better in the bass, more grip, more depth, more of everything. I was not entirely happy with the bass response of the speakers until I stuck a Krell on them. However a Linn LK100 also performs well with them in that respect. Thanks for the advice Martin. I am not exactly sure how to work out if the Hecos are low impedance but if they are then a 7R will sort them out. I have a feeling this is where I am going.
I would like some 7R mono blocks but as rare as hens teeth second hand. The Heco measurements were posted upthread somewhere - impedance drops to 2.4 ohms in the bass and that is what the Series 7 doesn't like. Shouldn't think you would have any trouble selling it, Croft sells second hand like hot cakes. Don't really see much advantage to the 7R monoblocks over a 7R so I wouldn't worry about that. You shouldn't need the extra power of the monoblocks as the Hecos are very sensitive. Are you going to try the Krell KSA50S?
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Post by jimbo on Nov 13, 2020 15:29:36 GMT
Wise council Martin and you are spot on regarding impedance which is where I think the 7 has difficulty driving the Hecos. The 7R is recommended for driving low impedance speakers and therefore comes across as having more bass but really as you said it is just its ability to deliver in that region where the impedance dips. I think I will get my 7 off to Glenn soon to be upgraded.
Sorry i have decied not to fooolow up with the Krell KAS 50 as it is really the KSA100 I would like to try. Many thanks for the offer anyway.
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Post by antonio on Nov 13, 2020 17:08:46 GMT
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Post by mikeyb on Nov 13, 2020 17:20:57 GMT
If you want an amplifier that grips the bass then you really need to try one of Colin Wonfors M50 or M100 power amps, they'll grip your bass and make it scream for mercy.
I never heard ANY bass from my little PMC 21's until I hooked them to an M50 power amp - jeez was like a totally different speaker. its not all about pure power, the m50 at 50w sounds a helluva lot more
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Post by macca on Nov 13, 2020 18:14:31 GMT
Wise council Martin and you are spot on regarding impedance which is where I think the 7 has difficulty driving the Hecos. The 7R is recommended for driving low impedance speakers and therefore comes across as having more bass but really as you said it is just its ability to deliver in that region where the impedance dips. I think I will get my 7 off to Glenn soon to be upgraded.
Sorry i have decied not to fooolow up with the Krell KAS 50 as it is really the KSA100 I would like to try. Many thanks for the offer anyway.
Not a problem, if you want to borrow my 100 some time just let me know. It is quite a bit different to the 50S.
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Post by jimbo on Nov 14, 2020 10:00:52 GMT
Interesting. The grip on the speakers is why I am building the 686. They seem to like the Arcam Alpha 10P power. More wont hurt. My speakers are relatively easy to move, being a mere 27Kg. The rubber feet, and a hard floor are the main reason why. POWER!!!!!! This is what you need.. Yes your right mate - I need POWER!
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