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Post by jimbo on Mar 11, 2021 7:02:04 GMT
The IFI Zen gets great reviews and Fremer thought it compared particularly well against some mega priced stuff so at £150 it looks an absolute bargain to start listening to MC cartidges. I like the options of being able to use Hi or Lo ouput MC cartridges and indeed Very Lo. I was just interested to see how the BB3 measured in comparison as it is so well thought of. The IFI has an extremely low noise floor (-151db) even compared against some of the best MC phono stages out there and as we know low noise is critical in MC phono stages. But as we all know specs dont tell you everything! As i said to you recently Jim, There are multiple ways of achieving figures. It's the sacrifices you are willing to make elsewhere in the circuit that get you to those kind of numbers. There are no free lunches in HiFi, so for £150, i would expect there to be sacrifices or things that are not optimal, or it wouldnt be £150! The trouble with specs with Valve phonostages, is that with every different valve you use, you alter the spec. We used 2x pinnacle valves when we initially started to build and measure the BB3. We were convinced we had enough gain etc and everything measured well.... However, when we put Tesla valves in, we got a huge drop in gain. It's not quite that simple with valve phonostages. There are specs in this thread. Feel free to dig back and see if any are comparable. In truth though, if you REALLY want to compare them, you'll have to buy one of each and use your ears. After all, that's all that matters in the end. Anyway, I have a waiting list until September so that should give you enough time to get acquainted with the IFI  Glad you agree about ears being the ultimate arbiter in determining whether a piece of kit sounds good or not.  Measurements only get you so far especially if they show you vanishingly low levels of noise or distortion. After all you know that most of the gear I like has lots of distortion and measures probably pretty average.
However with MC phono stages in particular I would have thought a prerequisite would be to be as quiet as possible with very low noise but again this may not mean said item actually sounds good.
Mmmm... I might take a punt on this one especially as the BB3 waiting list is so long and of course the IFI phono stage is a 10th of the price, lets hope its not a 10th of the sound?!!  |
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 11, 2021 7:40:42 GMT
As i said to you recently Jim, There are multiple ways of achieving figures. It's the sacrifices you are willing to make elsewhere in the circuit that get you to those kind of numbers. There are no free lunches in HiFi, so for £150, i would expect there to be sacrifices or things that are not optimal, or it wouldnt be £150! The trouble with specs with Valve phonostages, is that with every different valve you use, you alter the spec. We used 2x pinnacle valves when we initially started to build and measure the BB3. We were convinced we had enough gain etc and everything measured well.... However, when we put Tesla valves in, we got a huge drop in gain. It's not quite that simple with valve phonostages. There are specs in this thread. Feel free to dig back and see if any are comparable. In truth though, if you REALLY want to compare them, you'll have to buy one of each and use your ears. After all, that's all that matters in the end. Anyway, I have a waiting list until September so that should give you enough time to get acquainted with the IFI Glad you agree about ears being the ultimate arbiter in determining whether a piece of kit sounds good or not. Measurements only get you so far especially if they show you vanishingly low levels of noise or distortion. After all you know that most of the gear I like has lots of distortion and measures probably pretty average.
However with MC phono stages in particular I would have thought a prerequisite would be to be as quiet as possible with very low noise but again this may not mean said item actually sounds good.
Mmmm... I might take a punt on this one especially as the BB3 waiting list is so long and of course the IFI phono stage is a 10th of the price, lets hope its not a 10th of the sound?!! We've always agreed on the ears being the only real test that matters, Jim. When all is said and done, we listen to the overall end product of whatever equipment we have in the chain, and we have to like what we hear, or we won't listen. It has to speak to us and connect with the soul of the listener. But having said all that, we must remember we all want different things from our replay. Personally, I love valves in the Phonostage position. I think valves and vinyl are still the undefeated champion combination as of yet. Phonostages: One of the prerequisites for a MC Phonostage that is mandatory is certainly low noise, which the BB3 has, but The Zen will have a lower noise floor than any valve Phonostage. It uses surface mount parts on a small PCB, has tiny current draw and runs off an external PSU. (LPSU you have can power it) With it being such a low power Device, the resistor values on the input are likely to be much lower than those of a valve Phonostage. The smaller the value, the quieter the resistor. It's impossible in Valve stuff to totally eliminate all the noise. Valves are noisey in comparison to silicon. I've said this many times and been told "valves can be as good as silicon"......but they can't, not in this respect. If you'd like to get into what's important and why, there is a great article here: hifisonix.com/riaa-phono-equalizer-amplifiers/Click on the green highlighted "RIAA equalisation amplifiers V2.0" for a thorough breakdown of "all- active equalisation" for the PDF. The Zen will be better than 10% of a BB3....because that would only buy the CMR capacitors and the hookup wire for a BB3, so it's off to a winner already 🤣 Thing is, are you REALLY gonna know what any MC cart can do in your system if you only give it the Zen to work with? Like your JustBOOM DAC, the Zen is an entry-level device and whilst it may be impressive for the price, where does its ability start to unravel.....? Reading the reviews suggest that it's VERY clean and precise (possibly sterile?) and I am really surprised you are considering one, given your stated preferences over equipment in the past. Either way, let us know how you get on as we always like to champion a budget bargain. |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 11, 2021 9:00:03 GMT
I have always been agnostic regarding possible phono stages to be used with MC cartridges hence my earlier and failed exploration into SUTs and Head amps.
I have always understood and been aware that it is very difficult to get valve phono stages quiet enough to work effectively with MC cartridges hence pondering SS.
As you know I have never been enthralled with MC cartridges as they have usually left me non plussed and yes I have heard some very good ones in some great systems so I know they can be OK but not convinced enough to win me over.
But as you know it is on my list to try again! Hope I am a bit more successful than I was with power amps!
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 11, 2021 9:15:00 GMT
I have always been agnostic regarding possible phono stages to be used with MC cartridges hence my earlier and failed exploration into SUTs and Head amps. I have always understood and been aware that it is very difficult to get valve phono stages quiet enough to work effectively with MC cartridges hence pondering SS. As you know I have never been enthralled with MC cartridges as they have usually left me non plussed and yes I have heard some very good ones in some great systems so I know they can be OK but not convinced enough to win me over. But as you know it is on my list to try again! Hope I am a bit more successful than I was with power amps! 🤣 Sometimes experiments don't got the way we expect or would like. That's part of the game, but at least you tried! Your foray into MC will be an interesting read I'm sure. I recall you hearing the SIMaudio Moon I had here! |
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Post by firebottle on May 27, 2021 18:01:56 GMT
Just listening to vinyl through a fresh off the press BB3 phono stage.
There is just something so tangible and utterly convincing about the sonic presentation with this stage.
London Grammar, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Paul Simon, it all sounds wonderful.
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Post by Bigman80 on May 27, 2021 18:07:02 GMT
Just listening to vinyl through a fresh off the press BB3 phono stage. There is just something so tangible and utterly convincing about the sonic presentation with this stage. London Grammar, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Paul Simon, it all sounds wonderful. Ah, I'm just glad it's working 🤣 |
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Post by stevew on May 27, 2021 18:14:16 GMT
Anything different to your build ?
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Post by Bigman80 on May 27, 2021 18:21:36 GMT
Anything different to your build ? No, exactly the same, apart from the JFets. The ones ive used in all of the BB3's are now obsolete but the manufcturer has exactly the same one with a slightly higher idss number. I took one to alan's for the Guru's technical seal of approval. Absolutely no difference whatsoever sonically. Which is what i had hoped. |
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Post by stevew on May 27, 2021 18:28:36 GMT
Anything different to your build ? No, exactly the same, apart from the JFets. The ones ive used in all of the BB3's are now obsolete but the manufcturer has exactly the same one with a slightly higher idss number. I took one to alan's for the Guru's technical seal of approval. Absolutely no difference whatsoever sonically. Which is what i had hoped. As they say in Wales ‘Fabulas’ No idea why, Think I’m still in shock and envy from hearing Angus’s system on Tuesday. Lordy |
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Post by Bigman80 on May 27, 2021 18:31:03 GMT
No, exactly the same, apart from the JFets. The ones ive used in all of the BB3's are now obsolete but the manufcturer has exactly the same one with a slightly higher idss number. I took one to alan's for the Guru's technical seal of approval. Absolutely no difference whatsoever sonically. Which is what i had hoped. As they say in Wales ‘Fabulas’ No idea why, Think I’m still in shock and envy from hearing Angus’s system on Tuesday. Lordy 🤣🤣 Yeah those Heco speakers really opened up the system. You should have heard it with the 686. It was epic. That's why I was breaking me neck for a pair! One of those moments that leaves a lasting impression. The Avalon Phonostage is damn good too. |
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Post by stevew on May 27, 2021 19:29:52 GMT
As they say in Wales ‘Fabulas’ No idea why, Think I’m still in shock and envy from hearing Angus’s system on Tuesday. Lordy 🤣🤣 Yeah those Heco speakers really opened up the system. You should have heard it with the 686. It was epic. That's why I was breaking me neck for a pair! One of those moments that leaves a lasting impression. The Avalon Phonostage is damn good too. Really outstanding sound. Kit just disappears... musicians in front of you, with other musicians over there, and over there. It just is. As me and Angus agreed. Now I need some Townshend product before I go any further |
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Post by dt79 on May 27, 2021 20:43:18 GMT
Just listening to vinyl through a fresh off the press BB3 phono stage. There is just something so tangible and utterly convincing about the sonic presentation with this stage. London Grammar, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Paul Simon, it all sounds wonderful. Ah, I'm just glad it's working 🤣 Is this my one? |
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Post by Bigman80 on May 27, 2021 21:14:33 GMT
Ah, I'm just glad it's working 🤣 Is this my one? Yes 😁 |
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Post by dt79 on May 27, 2021 21:33:27 GMT
Great! Can’t wait to hear what it can do. |
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Post by Bigman80 on May 27, 2021 21:41:21 GMT
Great! Can’t wait to hear what it can do. You will next week. 😉 Looking forward to your thoughts on it! |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2022 14:07:55 GMT
Anybody know what the “capacitance” of the BB3. Just checking to see if I need to do anything with it to get the best out of an Audio Technica AT20 SS.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2022 14:16:28 GMT
I think I have found the answer - 100pF.
If I add capacitors to the loading plugs, I assume that this gives me parallel capacitors?
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Post by dt79 on Mar 20, 2022 14:17:49 GMT
I think I have found the answer - 100pF. If I add capacitors to the loading plugs, I assume that this gives me parallel capacitors? 150pf according to Ollie, and yes. Where did you see the 100pf figure? |
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 20, 2022 14:24:04 GMT
I think I have found the answer - 100pF. If I add capacitors to the loading plugs, I assume that this gives me parallel capacitors? 150pf according to Ollie, and yes. Where did you see the 100pf figure? Yeah, it's 150pf, we calculated it recently for one I'm building. |
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Post by sq225917 on Mar 20, 2022 15:34:02 GMT
The claim of -151db noise is hokem. Plain and simple, instrumentation amps don't manage that, it's 1,000 less than the best opamps.
To have that noise at 72db gain is just impossible cos that would mean it's eliminating 222db of noise, which is below a 1 ohm resistor at room temp.
It's just number fuckery. Tenner says it uses a mute circuit until it picks up signal input.
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 20, 2022 15:35:30 GMT
The claim of -151db noise is hokem. Plain and simple, instrumentation amps don't manage that, it's 1,000 less than the best opamps. To have that noise at 72db gain is just impossible cos that would mean it's eliminating 222db of noise, which is below a 1 ohm resistor at room temp. It's just number fuckery. Tenner says it uses a mute circuit until it picks up signal input. Have you posted this in the wrong thread? I have no idea what this relates to if not? |
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Post by sq225917 on Mar 20, 2022 16:52:58 GMT
The above mentioned ifi zen
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2022 16:54:02 GMT
I think I have found the answer - 100pF. If I add capacitors to the loading plugs, I assume that this gives me parallel capacitors? 150pf according to Ollie, and yes. Where did you see the 100pf figure? A post from “Vivant” AKA “Firebottle” on DIY Audio. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 20, 2022 17:06:58 GMT
The above mentioned ifi zen Oh I see. Yes, it's bollocks. 100% |
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Post by antonio on Mar 20, 2022 18:53:23 GMT
The above mentioned ifi zen I don't see, which post are you talking about? |
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Post by mikeyb on Mar 21, 2022 6:35:34 GMT
The above mentioned ifi zen I don't see, which post are you talking about? Mentioned at #570 or thereabouts, didn't look any further back so might not be the first mention |
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Post by jimbo on Mar 21, 2022 7:30:29 GMT
The claim of -151db noise is hokem. Plain and simple, instrumentation amps don't manage that, it's 1,000 less than the best opamps. To have that noise at 72db gain is just impossible cos that would mean it's eliminating 222db of noise, which is below a 1 ohm resistor at room temp. It's just number fuckery. Tenner says it uses a mute circuit until it picks up signal input. So are you saying the advertised figure on their site is wrong? |
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 21, 2022 7:51:55 GMT
The claim of -151db noise is hokem. Plain and simple, instrumentation amps don't manage that, it's 1,000 less than the best opamps. To have that noise at 72db gain is just impossible cos that would mean it's eliminating 222db of noise, which is below a 1 ohm resistor at room temp. It's just number fuckery. Tenner says it uses a mute circuit until it picks up signal input. So are you saying the advertised figure on their site is wrong? There is no way on this earth that when the circuit is active, IE when there is a signal passing through it, that it get anywhere near -151db. For a Phonostage, it's 100% impossible. Look at the best DACs, they don't get to -151db. Also, once you get to around -75db and above, it really becomes academic. The SNR of the medium is around -72db, so as long as your TT has rumble better than -72db and your Phonostage has SNR of -72db or better, you are surpassing the ability of the medium. Those are rough figures btw, but you get the idea. |
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Measurements only get you so far especially if they show you vanishingly low levels of noise or distortion. After all you know that most of the gear I like has lots of distortion and measures probably pretty average.
