Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2020 7:07:24 GMT
With the completion of the MK2 under my belt and a sonically pleasing performance being the result, I found I am listening to vinyl more and more. I decided that I wasnt happy to retire this phonostage from the DIY market. Simon was graceful enough to offer to take a look at the PCB issues of missing bits and spaces for things we no longer needed. I put out a wanted ad on DIYaudio at the same time and got a reply from a fella called Craig. He is "Craigtone Audio" in America. A few emails later and this 3D render arrives of the new MK3 PCB. It's had a few layout tweaks but is essentially the same as the MK 2. This will be the last modified board. The final version and it shouldn't need any more revisions!! On the MK2, The relay was only engaged when used in MM. This one will have the relay engaged in MC instead. This is my only concern about this board.
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Post by electronumpty on Jan 7, 2020 12:10:38 GMT
No idea but i like the look of the pink valve holders!🙂
It does look a tidier layout than the mk1 though.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2020 13:14:11 GMT
No idea but i like the look of the pink valve holders!🙂 It does look a tidier layout than the mk1 though. It is, but i suspect the increase of components to provide the MM&MC capabilities have forced a rather more planned approach to fit everything on. There's a lot on this PCB and it's still the same footprint! A direct swap for any of the Bigbottle boards. Quite clever I thought lol.
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Post by electronumpty on Jan 7, 2020 17:15:58 GMT
Can you comment on any sound difference between the 2 yet ?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2020 18:24:12 GMT
Can you comment on any sound difference between the 2 yet ? Between the one you have and the one i have? No. I never had a Bigbottle in this system as it is now, so there is absolutely no point even trying to. Sorry, Andy.
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Post by electronumpty on Jan 7, 2020 19:53:51 GMT
No worries just curious.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2020 21:10:19 GMT
Yes, and me! It would have been great to compare the two directly. In my heart, I feel the MK2 is a bit quieter and possibly a bit more transparent, but again, different system now and different valves I actually think one of the valves in my MK2 may be having an issue as the soundstage seems to drift to the right a little after a little while. I have a couple of valves I can rotate with and find out for sure Anyway, there just no credible way of being sure about the differences.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 8, 2020 0:05:15 GMT
A bit more progress Its starting to look a lot like the final version!! Also, how cheeky is that little logo! lol
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 12, 2020 20:06:30 GMT
A bit of an update on the Bigbottle MK3.
Craig has been mega busy sorting a few bits out with tthe PCB and sent me this, based on simulation of the Circuit
Hi Oli,
Here is what I am getting:
MM - 41dB gain 0.5db deviation from RIAA
MC - BF861C @ 47 ohm - 41dB gain 0.5dB deviation
- BF861C @ 100 ohm - 58dB gain 0.7dB deviation
- LSK170B @ 2.7 ohm - 59dB gain 0.6dB deviation
Obviously, 41db isn't enough gain for MC but the gain and accuracy of the RIAA looks like it's pretty good in the 58-59db region.
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Post by firebottle on Jan 13, 2020 17:13:35 GMT
Except we know it's much better than that, don't take the sim as gospel.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 13, 2020 17:29:05 GMT
Except we now now it's much better than that, don't take the sim as gospel. Yes, you absolutely got the accuracy far better than the simulation, but just felt it was a nice little update. After all, it's still a great starting point prior to refinement
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 17, 2020 18:07:19 GMT
A few developments:
The relays will no longer be energised when MC is selected.
A "mild to wild" amount of different sized output caps can be used on the Phonostage, thanks to Craig's creativity with the layout.
The FET will have a dual footprint allowing the use of surface mount BF861C or an equivalent leaded version. Unfortunately, we are yet to find a perfect suitor. I will endeavour to find one as this will help those who are new to soldering.
+ & - indicators are now on the Capacitors and what else is rather cool is..............you can now populate the PCB on either side (except the valves) which enables you to easily have the valves on show. How cool is that!
Electronumpty, this would have made life really easy for you. I am sorry lol
A pic of the new PCB mockup to follow
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 17, 2020 18:08:26 GMT
Here you go!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 19:04:54 GMT
Neat little job that Bigman
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 17, 2020 19:55:23 GMT
Neat little job that Bigman Yes, very tidy isn't it!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 19:59:08 GMT
We are very lucky at work our employers have 3D printing for circuit boards, re-flow and pick and place machines so we take it for granted all of the effort that goes into a project like this, full marks El capitaino
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 17, 2020 20:38:25 GMT
We are very lucky at work our employers have 3D printing for circuit boards, re-flow and pick and place machines so we take it for granted all of the effort that goes into a project like this, full marks El capitaino Thank you. Yes, it has to be something you are passionate about or it would never see the light if day. A lot of people have helped make this happen so I thank them in turn
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Post by electronumpty on Jan 17, 2020 21:02:22 GMT
Electronumpty, this would have made life really easy for you. I am sorry lol Ha! Now you change it! Seriously, looks really good and a very user friendly layout , not that I'm an expert about that sort of thing. I'm sure it'll be great!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 17, 2020 21:03:55 GMT
Electronumpty, this would have made life really easy for you. I am sorry lol Ha! Now you change it! Seriously, looks really good and a very user friendly layout , not that I'm an expert about that sort of thing. I'm sure it'll be great! Hahaha, sorry mate but it was not my idea, but I liked it You can always build another lmao
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Post by electronumpty on Jan 17, 2020 22:10:14 GMT
You never know , I seem to have PCBitis at the moment! lol
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 17, 2020 22:19:04 GMT
You never know , I seem to have PCBitis at the moment! lol Hahaha, its catching mate
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Post by sq225917 on Jan 19, 2020 11:35:27 GMT
Thats looking great Oli. Silk screen on both sides is a great idea.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 19, 2020 11:48:07 GMT
Thats looking great Oli. Silk screen on both sides is a great idea. Thanks Simon. I'd love to take the credit but Craig brought this to the table. Hes been incredibly effective at a couple of fresh ideas. We also picked up another one today in which we may be able to incorporate a jumper configuration to allow the use of a different valve in place of the ECC83. This one being much cheaper
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Post by dsjr on Jan 19, 2020 17:06:44 GMT
Just a thought or two - MC's mostly seem to work loaded by 100 ohms upwards and going further never seemed to make much of an effect, although Naim and NVA to mention two, seemed pretty universal at 470 ohm loading (as time went on, we used Naim 'K' boards for practically everything with no issues i seem to remember). MM's today are usually settled on required 47k and 50 - 100pF which combined with the tonearm exit cable, seems enough for all but the most old fashioned types ime.
Most important of all I think, is to ensure a good high overload margin plus clean behaviour when upset by record ticks and splats. Cheaper stages don't always have the headroom and can latch or let go momentarily when set off by a loud tick or pop. The best stages I ever heard, seemed to subjectively lessen the 'effects' of surface noise.
Many modern cartridges have an hf rise rather droop as was common in the pre-digital age and the performance of the phono stage at very high frequencies can help a lot here in terms of handling the excesses in my now ancient experiences..
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 19, 2020 17:10:45 GMT
Just a thought or two - MC's mostly seem to work loaded by 100 ohms upwards and going further never seemed to make much of an effect, although Naim and NVA to mention two, seemed pretty universal at 470 ohm loading (as time went on, we used Naim 'K' boards for practically everything with no issues i seem to remember). MM's today are usually settled on required 47k and 50 - 100pF which combined with the tonearm exit cable, seems enough for all but the most old fashioned types ime. Most important of all I think, is to ensure a good high overload margin plus clean behaviour when upset by record ticks and splats. Cheaper stages don't always have the headroom and can latch or let go momentarily when set off by a loud tick or pop. The best stages I ever heard, seemed to subjectively lessen the 'effects' of surface noise. Many modern cartridges have an hf rise rather droop as was common in the pre-digital age and the performance of the phono stage at very high frequencies can help a lot here in terms of handling the excesses in my now ancient experiences.. Hi Dave, Yes, all good points. There is ample headroom with this phonostage, I can't remember the exact figure but I'm Sure alan would chip in with the technical gubbins
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Post by sq225917 on Jan 20, 2020 18:15:09 GMT
Most mc carts have a sub ten ohm impedance, so any loading over 100 ohms has no further effect on electrical damping and taming the hf rise.
Theres relatively few, like higher end Benz and Lyra carts, that genuinely need over 100 ohms due to the combination of coil inductance and impedance.
I like a c300 ohm load on my Benz lp though it sounds good even into a 3k load.
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 20, 2020 18:22:01 GMT
Most mc carts have a sub ten ohm impedance, so any loading over 100 ohms has no further effect on electrical damping and taming the hf rise. Theres relatively few, like higher end Benz and Lyra carts, that genuinely need over 100 ohms due to the combination of coil inductance and impedance. I like a c300 ohm load on my Benz lp though it sounds good even into a 3k load. You can literally add any value into this phonostage but if I recall correctly, if you wanted to work it out, the first part of the equation was 1k. I am literally drawing a blank lol
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Post by sq225917 on Jan 20, 2020 20:49:20 GMT
Google parallel resistor calculator just put in 1000 ohm for the first number then adjust the second value until you get the required number.
So 111 ohms gives you a 100r loading with a 1k native impedance
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 20, 2020 21:37:29 GMT
Google parallel resistor calculator just put in 1000 ohm for the first number then adjust the second value until you get the required number. So 111 ohms gives you a 100r loading with a 1k native impedance Yes, that's the stuff.
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Post by radfordrevival on Jan 21, 2020 13:30:40 GMT
Great looking PCB!
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