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Post by karma67 on Jan 5, 2020 9:14:24 GMT
hi, oliver kindly asked if is share my plinth build on here,apologies to those who have already seen it elsewhere.
so it all starts from a design,heres a drawing of what im doing,i used a panzerholz top board and the sides are mu25 beech plywood.
the first thing i made was a veneer press,not only to veneer the top with but to also laminate the 3 boards up to get the final thickness.
so far so good as they say! the first job was to glue together the 2 ply boards,pva adhesive was used and the press worked a treat. the second lay up was gluing the 2 ply boards to the panzerholz board,for this i used an epoxy resin as panzerholz wont accept water based glues.
here you can see a nice resin beed being squeezed out.
whilst this was left to cure overnight i turned my attention to the veneer,im using cocobolo for the plinth,very rare and exotic,from the same family as rio rosewood. i spent a while selecting where on the sheet id cut the top from.
once the resin had cured overnight it was time to profile it to shape,here you can see how well the press did its job,a nice tight join of all 3 boards with no obvious glue line.
now i can veneer the top board,i used to veneer on a daily basis but ive not done any for at least 10 yrs! again i had to use epozy resin rather than pva for this. the 2 sheets of cocobolo where taped together and pressed flat for 24 hrs prior to laying. after a further 24 hrs to cure i trimmed off the over hang and removed the veneer tape.
given it a wipe over with meths is a good indication of what the colour will be when clear coated 
the next job was to route out the hole for the turntable,i made a template for this.
the job id been dreading was next,lots of waste to remove,i made a template up to profile the underneath leaving just 20mm of ply left for the sides and feet area.
and after what seemed like years i was left with this.
so thats it up to date,the sides need to be veneered next,a job for the weekend i think.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 5, 2020 9:54:32 GMT
Yes!!
Thanks for sharing this Jamie.
I absolutely requested this thread because it not only showcases your skills, but it's increasingly interesting.
I am shocked that the plan was to remove everything from the middle of plinth 😱
Are you going to fill it with resin or something, or is it going to be hollow as it is now?
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Post by karma67 on Jan 5, 2020 10:18:19 GMT
Yes!! Thanks for sharing this Jamie. I absolutely requested this thread because it not only showcases your skills, but it's increasingly interesting. I am shocked that the plan was to remove everything from the middle of plinth 😱 Are you going to fill it with resin or something, or is it going to be hollow as it is now? no worries oli, re the removal of the ply,id always intented to do this as i just wanted a skirt to create the sides,this does however lend its self nicely to filling with resin or some other dampening material. im still undecided on that front at the moment.
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Post by karma67 on Jan 5, 2020 10:30:53 GMT
there's another option i have in the back of my mind,the seed was planted by johng.
that is to use a arm pod not conected to the plinth in say a panzer or bronze solid round bar,the tonearm is bolted to it and it just sits there held by its own weight,the top of the plinth would still have a tonearm mouting hole on it which is covered up by the at-1010 mounting collar,the collar sitting just above the plinth to give the illusion of the tonearm being mounted in the traditional way if you get my drift.
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Post by dsjr on Jan 5, 2020 11:00:01 GMT
I was shocked too at the amount of material removed. The Bastin plinths for Garrards were built up in differently jigged layers creating no voids inside and just enough clearance for the spring suspended motor and main bearing. The arm board was obviously thinner but still more than solid enough. I remember these as almost totally inert structures. Mind you, the Sony will be silent to all intents and purposes, so no vibration to sink away. Adding mass would be more to do with the effects of feedback, which starts long before the old fashioned 'howlround' and can totally screw up the mid bass performance - the main reason why so many direct drive decks (then) badly sited, sounded so inferior to springy sub-chassis types I recall.
Not sure about isolating the arm to be honest. I was brought up to maintain coupling between the main bearing and the tonearm and all the Linn/Thorens (plus loads of others similar)/Rega development and tweaks has been to keep this coupling tight. Even the Xerxes top board kept it solid between the two, the 'cut' being around this area and not through it I think.
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Post by macca on Jan 5, 2020 11:14:44 GMT
Amazing stuff so far. Knocking up your own veneer press!
With the arm it seems to me that as the idea is to have the needle follow the groove as exactly as possible so you don't want any added vibration of any kind in the arm. So wouldn't isolating it as much as possible from everything else make sense? I don't know much about TT design and I know sometimes these things can be counter-intuitive.
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Post by karma67 on Jan 5, 2020 11:48:50 GMT
I was shocked too at the amount of material removed. The Bastin plinths for Garrards were built up in differently jigged layers creating no voids inside and just enough clearance for the spring suspended motor and main bearing. The arm board was obviously thinner but still more than solid enough. I remember these as almost totally inert structures. Mind you, the Sony will be silent to all intents and purposes, so no vibration to sink away. Adding mass would be more to do with the effects of feedback, which starts long before the old fashioned 'howlround' and can totally screw up the mid bass performance - the main reason why so many direct drive decks (then) badly sited, sounded so inferior to springy sub-chassis types I recall. Not sure about isolating the arm to be honest. I was brought up to maintain coupling between the main bearing and the tonearm and all the Linn/Thorens (plus loads of others similar)/Rega development and tweaks has been to keep this coupling tight. Even the Xerxes top board kept it solid between the two, the 'cut' being around this area and not through it I think. its never been about mass for this plinth and trust me there's enough weight to it already. the coupling adopted by the likes of linn etc,wasn't that more to do with the basic traditional box/plinth ease of manufacturer design rather than making a calculated design statement that coupling was the way to go? after all how else can you mount the tonearm on a mid priced deck other than how they mounted it?
martins comments make sense to me,the least vibration that goes up the tonearm the better,i dont profess to be an expert on damping/vibration etc so im just going on gut feeling and doing lots of reading. a seperate arm board is not out of the question either,but the damping properties of panzerholz make it not really worth the trouble,well to my mind anyway.
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Post by dsjr on Jan 5, 2020 12:52:53 GMT
I appreciate Linn/Ariston copied the TD150 (even to the original first batch Ariston RD11 main bearing which used a captive ball as Thorens did) and these were also based on the AR concepts, but initially, there were some good engineers working on such decks, so not really fair to discount their design input in the 60's as mere cost cutting. I appreciate you may want to go your own way though.
A project KJ did was to take a TD160 (in the days before the Super model) and glue and bolt a heavy wooden batten around the main bearing on the one hand (Martin Colloms did similar with the pre Cirkus LP12 bearing using thick perspex I recall), and at the other end again, bolted and glued to the sub-chassis, making an armboard, so really, the 'sub chassis' as seen by the arm was the wooden batten, the existing stamped sub-chassis being a carrier for the springs.
Rega too, lightened the plinth further yet kept a solid coupling from arm to main bearing - they wouldn't bother if they'd thought it not subjectively important!
Experience has shown me so far, that one piece turntable systems either need to be very low mass, or very heavy indeed - and never the twain shall meet. The Sony is so well engineered on its own and basically silent I'm sure, you may well be able to bend the rules a good bit as regards tonearm mounting. As for energy in the arm, not sure if anyone's actually vibration-tested and logged different arm types to see exactly what's going on there and subjective opinions are so often changed with the wind depending on external circumstances... Having said that, I wonder why Rega went from a single hole plus fixing nut, to a tripod fixing with screws... Loads of retooling Sh#t if it was for nothing.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 5, 2020 13:18:52 GMT
I was shocked too at the amount of material removed. The Bastin plinths for Garrards were built up in differently jigged layers creating no voids inside and just enough clearance for the spring suspended motor and main bearing. The arm board was obviously thinner but still more than solid enough. I remember these as almost totally inert structures. Mind you, the Sony will be silent to all intents and purposes, so no vibration to sink away. Adding mass would be more to do with the effects of feedback, which starts long before the old fashioned 'howlround' and can totally screw up the mid bass performance - the main reason why so many direct drive decks (then) badly sited, sounded so inferior to springy sub-chassis types I recall. Not sure about isolating the arm to be honest. I was brought up to maintain coupling between the main bearing and the tonearm and all the Linn/Thorens (plus loads of others similar)/Rega development and tweaks has been to keep this coupling tight. Even the Xerxes top board kept it solid between the two, the 'cut' being around this area and not through it I think. its never been about mass for this plinth and trust me there's enough weight to it already. the coupling adopted by the likes of linn etc,wasn't that more to do with the basic traditional box/plinth ease of manufacturer design rather than making a calculated design statement that coupling was the way to go? after all how else can you mount the tonearm on a mid priced deck other than how they mounted it?
martins comments make sense to me,the least vibration that goes up the tonearm the better,i dont profess to be an expert on damping/vibration etc so im just going on gut feeling and doing lots of reading. a seperate arm board is not out of the question either,but the damping properties of panzerholz make it not really worth the trouble,well to my mind anyway.
Having a separate arm stand makes 100% sense but I can imagine that there are all sorts of pitfalls with that idea. I believe VPI looked at it but preferred to remove the motor instead. Personally, I'd love to see a proper solution to a separate arm pillar. It makes sense but I also suspect that it would have to be substantially made and sort of locked in place somehow. |
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Post by karma67 on Jan 5, 2020 14:13:17 GMT
its never been about mass for this plinth and trust me there's enough weight to it already. the coupling adopted by the likes of linn etc,wasn't that more to do with the basic traditional box/plinth ease of manufacturer design rather than making a calculated design statement that coupling was the way to go? after all how else can you mount the tonearm on a mid priced deck other than how they mounted it?
martins comments make sense to me,the least vibration that goes up the tonearm the better,i dont profess to be an expert on damping/vibration etc so im just going on gut feeling and doing lots of reading. a seperate arm board is not out of the question either,but the damping properties of panzerholz make it not really worth the trouble,well to my mind anyway.
Having a separate arm stand makes 100% sense but I can imagine that there are all sorts of pitfalls with that idea. I believe VPI looked at it but preferred to remove the motor instead. Personally, I'd love to see a proper solution to a separate arm pillar. It makes sense but I also suspect that it would have to be substantially made and sort of locked in place somehow. i have 1 more board of panzer,i could in theory mount the tonearm pod to that,slip the tt plinth over it and then drop the tonearm through,but... and this is where i dont know/understand enough comes into play with the tt being sat on said pod/board arn't they then all coupled together again? all this thought is making my head hurt 
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Post by sq225917 on Jan 5, 2020 17:39:19 GMT
Looking good.
If going for the separate arm pod heresthree thing to consider.
The flatness of your clear coat. It wants to be utterly glass flat where the arm sits, so much that it sucks air to the arm base. I'd mirror finish the arm base bottom too.
Position and repeatability. Have you though about a method to accurately fix the arm in position without bolting it down, maybe an edge jig that positions the arm pod by fitting between motor housing edge and the edge of the arm pod. Then just lift it away once arm is located. Or maybe some sort of ring with horizontally placed grub screws that allow fine tuning of arm base position, then just wind the screws back for clearance once located.
Slotting the plinth top. How about a nice narrow 180 degree arc cut about 10mm wider around the arm base such that there's no direct path between motor and arm base. So any vibrations have to go the long way round. Maybe nest three such cuts to make it more circuitous but still providing some support to the arm base between motor and closest point of arm base? A bit like those circular maze drawings.
The maze cut idea is one I've considering for doing around the motor on my kuzma. Seems logical to make it harder for any vibration to go from source to arm.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 5, 2020 18:03:27 GMT
Looking good. If going for the separate arm pod heresthree thing to consider. The flatness of your clear coat. It wants to be utterly glass flat where the arm sits, so much that it sucks air to the arm base. I'd mirror finish the arm base bottom too. Position and repeatability. Have you though about a method to accurately fix the arm in position without bolting it down, maybe an edge jig that positions the arm pod by fitting between motor housing edge and the edge of the arm pod. Then just lift it away once arm is located. Or maybe some sort of ring with horizontally placed grub screws that allow fine tuning of arm base position, then just wind the screws back for clearance once located. Slotting the plinth top. How about a nice narrow 180 degree arc cut about 10mm wider around the arm base such that there's no direct path between motor and arm base. So any vibrations have to go the long way round. Maybe nest three such cuts to make it more circuitous but still providing some support to the arm base between motor and closest point of arm base? A bit like those circular maze drawings. The maze cut idea is one I've considering for doing around the motor on my kuzma. Seems logical to make it harder for any vibration to go from source to arm. The maze idea is really interesting. |
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Post by karma67 on Jan 5, 2020 18:04:59 GMT
it is and makes perfect sense too,so bloody simple! a shame ive not got a lot of room between tonearm(see my drawing) and tt chasis to really go to town with that idea,a 12 incher would be ideal
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 5, 2020 18:47:51 GMT
it is and makes perfect sense too,so bloody simple! a shame ive not got a lot of room between tonearm(see my drawing) and tt chasis to really go to town with that idea,a 12 incher would be ideal
Haha, a 12" PMAT1010. I have already asked that question. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 20:41:42 GMT
Fuk sake.......
Just buy a Techie.
😂
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Post by macca on Jan 5, 2020 23:02:05 GMT
That's your answer to everything.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 5, 2020 23:06:34 GMT
That's your answer to everything. Yes, and this TTS-8000 will be far superior to a 1210 when it's done. I guarantee that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 23:14:46 GMT
Well to be honest it's not really an answer macca.
More an observation into the why and whyfor of faffing about, trying to make a silk purse out of a pig's ear, at some considerable time and expense, when a humble Techie would suffice......
I just don't get it.......!!
But then again I'm an Audiofool not an Audiophile.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 23:23:02 GMT
That's your answer to everything. Yes, and this TTS-8000 will be far superior to a 1210 when it's done. I guarantee that. Who mentioned a 1210 ? I meant the Technics SL-1000 R. 🤔 |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 5, 2020 23:28:09 GMT
Yes, and this TTS-8000 will be far superior to a 1210 when it's done. I guarantee that. Who mentioned a 1210 ? I meant the Technics SL-1000 R. 🤔 Unless Jamie is gonna go for a Pioneer Exclusive, Nakamichi Dragon, PS-X9, SP10 Mk2, MK3 or a 10r, he's not going to equal or better that TTS-8000 when it's in the Panzer plinth. The new techie lineup is good, but it ain't gonna cut the mustard below the SP10r Anyway, this is a thread about Jamie's Marvelous plinth build. Not a turntable suggestion thread. Let's get back on subject. |
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Post by karma67 on Feb 8, 2020 17:10:33 GMT
work in progress, finished veneering the sides today,clean up tomorrow.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 8, 2020 17:40:45 GMT
work in progress, finished veneering the sides today,clean up tomorrow.
Oh my!! I love it. Can't wait to see it cleaned up. |
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 8, 2020 23:05:01 GMT
Handsome that.
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Post by alit on Feb 9, 2020 14:40:08 GMT
Nice job Jamie, looking good.
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Post by karma67 on Feb 10, 2020 18:11:51 GMT
cheers fella's. heres a few cleaned up.
next job is to route out both top and bottom edges to except a black ebony square line,ive not decided on the size but probably 2.8mm,apart from being decorative it also lets me give the edges a good rounding over. sharp square edges dont look right to my eye,
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 10, 2020 19:27:13 GMT
cheers fella's. heres a few cleaned up.
next job is to route out both top and bottom edges to except a black ebony square line,ive not decided on the size but probably 2.8mm,apart from being decorative it also lets me give the edges a good rounding over. sharp square edges dont look right to my eye,
I love the idea and I think this is gonna look stunning. When shall we talk about my plinth......? 😉 |
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Post by jimbo on Feb 15, 2020 21:21:27 GMT
Thats a nice piece of work Jamie. What will the final finish be. Oiled, varnished or natural?
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Post by karma67 on Feb 16, 2020 6:02:34 GMT
Thats a nice piece of work Jamie. What will the final finish be. Oiled, varnished or natural? thanks jim, im probably going with seedlac which is a less refined french polish,you make it yourself and leave it to rest for a few days. afterwards you strain it through a pair of tights! whats left is a lovely slightly red tinted polish.
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Post by karma67 on Feb 24, 2020 18:06:40 GMT
a bit more work at the weekend,so i can get a good rounded over top and bottom edge i inlayed some 2.3mm black ebony lines.the actual size when bought is 2.7mm but this looked a bit heavy so i made my rebate 2.3mm.
both top and bottom edges routed.
bottom line glued in using hide glue and first sanding to level it flush.
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Post by firebottle on Feb 24, 2020 18:27:59 GMT
Wow that veneering and rebating is superb. Much respect for your talent and patience.
I loved the industrial looking strength of the veneer press as well.
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