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Post by macca on Sept 27, 2019 15:56:58 GMT
You find leading edges a little bit soft with the passive then?
Boomy bass will be an impedance matching thing possibly?
The old KSA100Mk2 probably a bit too forgiving when it comes to full-on recordings, I'll bet the Neurochrome is the opposite and so a bit of a shock to the system. I'd stick with the DCB1, play some heavy rock and funk and let yourself acclimatize to the new presentation. You'll soon wonder what you were concerned about.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 16:16:36 GMT
You find leading edges a little bit soft with the passive then? Boomy bass will be an impedance matching thing possibly? The old KSA100Mk2 probably a bit too forgiving when it comes to full-on recordings, I'll bet the Neurochrome is the opposite and so a bit of a shock to the system. I'd stick with the DCB1, play some heavy rock and funk and let yourself acclimatize to the new presentation. You'll soon wonder what you were concerned about. You know, Macca, I think you may have hit the head on what I was thinking.
The new speakers are very resolving and yes, the leading edge caught me a bit by surprise, which I suppose could have been smoothed a bit by the old pioneers.
Yup, now I'm writing it down, it's making sense.
The DCB1 will stay in and i'll adjust to the new fidelity I am hearing. I'll swap back in a few months and see how the Khozmo fares as a stand alone device. Far more reliable results can be had then.
PS, there's some Neurochrome 86 boards on DIY for 300E, They just need a case and a 22v traffo to get them going (needs a case obvs)
Stunning amps and they would show you what is achievable beyond the Krell.
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Post by dsjr on Sept 27, 2019 16:30:11 GMT
Have you taken yourself to a typical dealer Oli (chain or not) and listened to modern expensive column speakers as a reference? I know rooms are all different, but even you should be well able to get a basic vibe of what two smaller bass units can do (and not) in a tall organ-pipe shaped box (believe me, it takes a very skilled designer to minimise the 60Hz honk such taller columns can produce and a fair bit of resistive loading inside). Smaller bass drivers working hard sometimes/mostly use boomy-tuned ports to augment what they cannot do and many modern gear enthusiasts believe this is what bass should be... Nobody wants to bloody know in the UK, but I think many of you's would like the JBL 4367, which is one of the very best two way speakers I've heard and a different league from Kudos Titans FFS!!! Kudos Titans sell, big JBL's don't over here, so an irrelevant opinion I have here. Shame Spendor D7's are so expensive and overlooked by Focals, Dynaudio's and suchlike.
My hearing situation made me think it was *all* my ears, but fortunately it isn't all the Rhinitis and Tinnitus. Small rooms can suffer oppressive bass pressure-nodes and middle to larger boxes designed to be used well away from room boundaries just don't work without boomy pressure waves being generated.
I haven't heard this amp, but I suspect it's the least of any worries from now on as it'll just give out what it's given and drive any box connected to it as best the box can give.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 16:45:26 GMT
Have you taken yourself to a typical dealer Oli (chain or not) and listened to modern expensive column speakers as a reference? I know rooms are all different, but even you should be well able to get a basic vibe of what two smaller bass units can do (and not) in a tall organ-pipe shaped box (believe me, it takes a very skilled designer to minimise the 60Hz honk such taller columns can produce and a fair bit of resistive loading inside). Smaller bass drivers working hard sometimes/mostly use boomy-tuned ports to augment what they cannot do and many modern gear enthusiasts believe this is what bass should be... Nobody wants to bloody know in the UK, but I think many of you's would like the JBL 4367, which is one of the very best two way speakers I've heard and a different league from Kudos Titans FFS!!! Kudos Titans sell, big JBL's don't over here, so an irrelevant opinion I have here. Shame Spendor D7's are so expensive and overlooked by Focals, Dynaudio's and suchlike. My hearing situation made me think it was *all* my ears, but fortunately it isn't all the Rhinitis and Tinnitus. Small rooms can suffer oppressive bass pressure-nodes and middle to larger boxes designed to be used well away from room boundaries just don't work without boomy pressure waves being generated. I haven't heard this amp, but I suspect it's the least of any worries from now on as it'll just give out what it's given and drive any box connected to it as best the box can give. Yes Dave, quite recently I heard some speakers with smaller drivers etc. In rooms treated for their use, they were very good although I forget the name of the now.
The amp is stunningly anonymous.
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Post by dsjr on Sept 27, 2019 16:50:59 GMT
Sorry I preached again. Our living rooms are often the biggest bottleneck and often, with ported boxes, we just need to find a compromise that blends properly. I've been asked not to do anything until we know if and when we move, so that's two years away now.
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Post by macca on Sept 27, 2019 16:58:32 GMT
Have you taken yourself to a typical dealer Oli (chain or not) and listened to modern expensive column speakers as a reference? I know rooms are all different, but even you should be well able to get a basic vibe of what two smaller bass units can do (and not) in a tall organ-pipe shaped box (believe me, it takes a very skilled designer to minimise the 60Hz honk such taller columns can produce and a fair bit of resistive loading inside). Smaller bass drivers working hard sometimes/mostly use boomy-tuned ports to augment what they cannot do and many modern gear enthusiasts believe this is what bass should be... Nobody wants to bloody know in the UK, but I think many of you's would like the JBL 4367, which is one of the very best two way speakers I've heard and a different league from Kudos Titans FFS!!! Kudos Titans sell, big JBL's don't over here, so an irrelevant opinion I have here. Shame Spendor D7's are so expensive and overlooked by Focals, Dynaudio's and suchlike. My hearing situation made me think it was *all* my ears, but fortunately it isn't all the Rhinitis and Tinnitus. Small rooms can suffer oppressive bass pressure-nodes and middle to larger boxes designed to be used well away from room boundaries just don't work without boomy pressure waves being generated. I haven't heard this amp, but I suspect it's the least of any worries from now on as it'll just give out what it's given and drive any box connected to it as best the box can give. The Mordaunt Shorts use two 8 inch drivers for bass Dave. Okay so a single fifteen would be better again but if you look at the cab construction you can see there won't be any issues there. Exactly the sort of speaker I am always saying people should go for - big, superb construction, good quality drivers and a brand and model that are still under the radar so can be picked up s/h for sensible money. None of us can afford JBL 4367! I'll bet they are at least on a par with my JM labs - which also tick all the boxes for cab construction and driver quality - if not better. Or you can go and buy something big and impressive but with flimsy cabs and cheapo drivers and encounter all the problems you mention. |
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Post by macca on Sept 27, 2019 17:08:14 GMT
You find leading edges a little bit soft with the passive then? Boomy bass will be an impedance matching thing possibly? The old KSA100Mk2 probably a bit too forgiving when it comes to full-on recordings, I'll bet the Neurochrome is the opposite and so a bit of a shock to the system. I'd stick with the DCB1, play some heavy rock and funk and let yourself acclimatize to the new presentation. You'll soon wonder what you were concerned about.
PS, there's some Neurochrome 86 boards on DIY for 300E, They just need a case and a 22v traffo to get them going (needs a case obvs)
Stunning amps and they would show you what is achievable beyond the Krell.
Well I've not heard better - at least for me - than the Krell KSA50S with the DCB1 and I've heard all the top-end gear from TAD, Audionote, Levinson and so on. All the millionaire brands. You never heard that DCB1/50S combination but it really was killer in every respect. Listening to that I was having a 'wow' moment every couple of minutes when usually they only happen once in a blue moon. The KSA100Mk2 is not quite at the same level of transparency as the 50S - but - it has a moreish quality to its sound that it has not taken me long to adjust to. It's like with the various Radford amps, you're aware that it isn't quite letting you hear right through into the studio but the sound is so 'right' on the ear - or the brain - that you don't care. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 17:09:57 GMT
PS, there's some Neurochrome 86 boards on DIY for 300E, They just need a case and a 22v traffo to get them going (needs a case obvs)
Stunning amps and they would show you what is achievable beyond the Krell.
Well I've not heard better - at least for me - than the Krell KSA50S with the DCB1 and I've heard all the top-end gear from TAD, Audionote, Levinson and so on. All the millionaire brands. You never heard that DCB1/50S combination but it really was killer in every respect. Listening to that I was having a 'wow' moment every couple of minutes when usually they only happen once in a blue moon. The KSA100Mk2 is not quite at the same level of transparency as the 50S - but - it has a moreish quality to its sound that it has not taken me long to adjust to. It's like with the various Radford amps, you're aware that it isn't quite letting you hear right through into the studio but the sound is so 'right' on the ear - or the brain - that you don't care. I smell a bake off. KsA50 v 686? Turbo DCB1 At the helm? |
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Post by macca on Sept 27, 2019 17:26:01 GMT
Well yeah if it wasn't still broken.  I expect the 686 to be very good but if it can beat the 50S I'll be amazed. |
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Post by sq225917 on Sept 27, 2019 17:29:16 GMT
Itll beat the 50s in everything but that bass bloom that the Krell adds.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 27, 2019 17:30:26 GMT
Itll beat the 50s in everything but that bass bloom that the Krell adds. FWIW I agree about Krell and bass bloom. It is a lovely bloom in the best ones though. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 27, 2019 17:33:21 GMT
Sorry I preached again. Our living rooms are often the biggest bottleneck and often, with ported boxes, we just need to find a compromise that blends properly. I've been asked not to do anything until we know if and when we move, so that's two years away now. I actually thought your description of what goes on in listening rooms was very insightful. I’ve heard it so many times. The room seems to get overwhelmed and it drowns out the music. That’s why I’ve tended to prefer compact standmounts. |
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Post by macca on Sept 27, 2019 17:42:00 GMT
Maybe it is because I have my speakers 8 ft from the back wall but I don't notice any bass bloom with either Krell. The 50S was astonishingly accurate. I've not heard bass guitar reproduced so well outside of a studio. The 100 is a bit warmer in the bass and not quite as transparent but has nothing I'd describe as bloom.
I like to hear the tone of the actual bass guitar, I'm not keen on bass that is just a generic sound no matter how deep or powerful it is. The 'drier' the better for me.
So I expect I'll like the 686 a lot. Thing is you've also got the 'tone' of the amplifier and how it handles the harmonics. For me they have to ring out sweet and so few amps manage that even if they are super-transparent otherwise. Both the Krells do that and it's a deal breaker for me. Does the 686 have that quality?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 27, 2019 17:55:36 GMT
That 8ft behind your speakers is a fecking godsend. Lack of space the biggest limitation I hear in other people’s rooms, especially in terms of space behind the speakers.
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Post by macca on Sept 27, 2019 18:12:27 GMT
That 8ft behind your speakers is a fecking godsend. Lack of space the biggest limitation I hear in other people’s rooms, especially in terms of space behind the speakers. Yep, gives a big speaker room to breathe. I rented enough houses to know that when I bought one it was going to have to have a big room with a concrete floor. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 27, 2019 18:21:51 GMT
That 8ft behind your speakers is a fecking godsend. Lack of space the biggest limitation I hear in other people’s rooms, especially in terms of space behind the speakers. Yep, gives a big speaker room to breathe. I rented enough houses to know that when I bought one it was going to have to have a big room with a concrete floor. You did well. I’m surprised more people don’t plan for their hifi when they purchase. Apart from Cyprus, I’ve only had two rooms with concrete floors, but neither was good sounding (not because of the concrete, just not good rooms). One was almost square, so I guess that’s one reason. The other wasn’t terrible, but it still had that room drone I hate. |
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Post by macca on Sept 27, 2019 18:30:03 GMT
Took me two years of looking to find one that fitted the requirements and that I could afford though. I was only on 8 grand a year back then.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 18:54:11 GMT
Maybe it is because I have my speakers 8 ft from the back wall but I don't notice any bass bloom with either Krell. The 50S was astonishingly accurate. I've not heard bass guitar reproduced so well outside of a studio. The 100 is a bit warmer in the bass and not quite as transparent but has nothing I'd describe as bloom. I like to hear the tone of the actual bass guitar, I'm not keen on bass that is just a generic sound no matter how deep or powerful it is. The 'drier' the better for me. So I expect I'll like the 686 a lot. Thing is you've also got the 'tone' of the amplifier and how it handles the harmonics. For me they have to ring out sweet and so few amps manage that even if they are super-transparent otherwise. Both the Krells do that and it's a deal breaker for me. Does the 686 have that quality? I think the only way is to let you hear one. Are you going to Sheffield? |
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Post by dsjr on Sept 27, 2019 18:56:32 GMT
Krell 50S - BASS BLOOM?  ? Do leave off, it's so clean it's positively clinical by domestic amp standards.... I swear it's nothing like the very slightly foggy original Krells, charming and classic as they may be. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Sept 27, 2019 19:00:19 GMT
I’ve never had a 50s. I was referring to original KSA 50, 80 and 100
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Post by sq225917 on Sept 27, 2019 19:13:15 GMT
50's as in plural not the later Sh#t a/b version.
Yes dsjr, bass bloom. It has a subtle fullness and warmth to the lower register that's not entirely natural. Thoroughly likeable though.
An ncore 400, dry and ultra tight it is not.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 19:21:56 GMT
Have you taken yourself to a typical dealer Oli (chain or not) and listened to modern expensive column speakers as a reference? I know rooms are all different, but even you should be well able to get a basic vibe of what two smaller bass units can do (and not) in a tall organ-pipe shaped box (believe me, it takes a very skilled designer to minimise the 60Hz honk such taller columns can produce and a fair bit of resistive loading inside). Smaller bass drivers working hard sometimes/mostly use boomy-tuned ports to augment what they cannot do and many modern gear enthusiasts believe this is what bass should be... Nobody wants to bloody know in the UK, but I think many of you's would like the JBL 4367, which is one of the very best two way speakers I've heard and a different league from Kudos Titans FFS!!! Kudos Titans sell, big JBL's don't over here, so an irrelevant opinion I have here. Shame Spendor D7's are so expensive and overlooked by Focals, Dynaudio's and suchlike. My hearing situation made me think it was *all* my ears, but fortunately it isn't all the Rhinitis and Tinnitus. Small rooms can suffer oppressive bass pressure-nodes and middle to larger boxes designed to be used well away from room boundaries just don't work without boomy pressure waves being generated. I haven't heard this amp, but I suspect it's the least of any worries from now on as it'll just give out what it's given and drive any box connected to it as best the box can give. The Mordaunt Shorts use two 8 inch drivers for bass Dave. Okay so a single fifteen would be better again but if you look at the cab construction you can see there won't be any issues there. Exactly the sort of speaker I am always saying people should go for - big, superb construction, good quality drivers and a brand and model that are still under the radar so can be picked up s/h for sensible money. None of us can afford JBL 4367! I'll bet they are at least on a par with my JM labs - which also tick all the boxes for cab construction and driver quality - if not better. Or you can go and buy something big and impressive but with flimsy cabs and cheapo drivers and encounter all the problems you mention. As you Know, I was lusting after your JMlabs for some time. I'm not lusting now lol. The 880s are, to be blunt, are fucking awesome. Pardon the language. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 19:24:58 GMT
In other news,
The DCB1 has been playing continually for 7 hours and I'm pleased to report that yes, it's firing on all cylinders now.
That slight edge has calmed and the sound is superb. So much so that I've just purchased my first ever HiRez DOWNLOAD ( £33 FFS) yes folks, I'm afraid that once again without the BigBottle here that digital is stealing a march.
Sell the SP10 to buy a Brooklyn Bridge?
Stranger things have happened.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 19:42:21 GMT
50's as in plural not the later Sh#t a/b version. Yes dsjr, bass bloom. It has a subtle fullness and warmth to the lower register that's not entirely natural. Thoroughly likeable though. An ncore 400, dry and ultra tight it is not. Maccas Krell is a KSA 50S. I don't think I could find a way to describe it as Sh#t? In fact, I felt it was so good that it started me off on a whole tangent with solid state amps. Yep, the 100 MK2 has a fuller flavour, cloudy? Hmmm, not IMO. Its a Richer sound, maybe fatter but it's certainly very capable. I may have exacerbated it's rich nature with this AN Kaisei caps. I'll have to change them for Macca. Some of these Vishay I have in the DCB1 would be spot on. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 20:33:27 GMT
Have you tried the speakers off the deck yet Oliver?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 20:40:42 GMT
Have you tried the speakers off the deck yet Oliver? Not yet. I'm not seeing the need atm now the DCB1 is back in. I haven't stopped my experiments so will get to it. |
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Post by macca on Sept 27, 2019 21:04:10 GMT
Have you tried the speakers off the deck yet Oliver? Not yet. I'm not seeing the need atm now the DCB1 is back in. I haven't stopped my experiments so will get to it. So no more bass issues then? That's good. I bet they're a bit of a step up from those Pioneers. They have their charms but they were really holding back your amplification and sources so much. You've followed classic flat earth philosophy - only upgrade the speakers once you've maxed out everywhere else! You can't beat getting a good score like that though. That's what it's all about if you want high end on a budget. I'm going to have to come down there for a quick listen at some point. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2019 21:19:27 GMT
Not yet. I'm not seeing the need atm now the DCB1 is back in. I haven't stopped my experiments so will get to it. So no more bass issues then? That's good. I bet they're a bit of a step up from those Pioneers. They have their charms but they were really holding back your amplification and sources so much. You've followed classic flat earth philosophy - only upgrade the speakers once you've maxed out everywhere else! You can't beat getting a good score like that though. That's what it's all about if you want high end on a budget. I'm going to have to come down there for a quick listen at some point. Yep, I don't want to say its 'sorted' but as of right now, it's not as bad. I do want to continue to experiment with them and try and max their performance. I didn't deliberately follow flat earth philosophy, in fact quite the opposite, I just never found or saw any speakers that "caught my eye" or any that I could afford. Believe me, had these come up at any point I would have nabbed them. As for a hifi bargain, well I don't think I'll top these. I've landed lucky a couple of times in terms of information on kit and made an informed choice, but never in terms of a bargain. Although the Krell wasn't a bad gamble either. As for the speakers, I think these are pretty much as good as I've heard anywhere. You (as is anyone) is more than welcome to visit and run the rule over what I've put together here. |
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Post by antonio on Sept 28, 2019 4:32:21 GMT
Start saving for the Townsend supports.  Pleased your happy with the new speakers and amp. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2019 7:12:34 GMT
Start saving for the Townsend supports. Pleased your happy with the new speakers and amp. Thanks mucca. I am more than happy |
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Pleased your happy with the new speakers and amp.