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Post by brian2957 on Sept 28, 2019 8:56:06 GMT
Excellent news Oli , looks like you're thoroughly enjoying your listening  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2019 11:41:45 GMT
Excellent news Oli , looks like you're thoroughly enjoying your listening Hi Brian, Absolutely right. It's amazing how much difference it's made to my enjoyment. Digital is now singing and TBH, I haven't played more than one side of an LP in the last few days. Think the improvement has allowed the digital to really show its strengths. |
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Post by brian2957 on Sept 28, 2019 15:32:26 GMT
Just as well you kept your digital system mate . It only takes a component change ( especially speakers ) for one or the other to shine .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2019 16:07:05 GMT
Just as well you kept your digital system mate . It only takes a component change ( especially speakers ) for one or the other to shine . Yup, listening to Abbey Road - 50th Anniversary edition. It's cracking. I'm going to have to seek improvement lol |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2019 21:51:36 GMT
So the DCB1 has been left on and music has been playing through it for at least 50hrs by now.
What I can say with absolute certainty is the Vishay Caps are doing a very fabulous job. Initially I was a little concerned with the super sharp leading edges and a slightly thin tone but listening over the weekend has been superb.
After about 10 hours I noticed the body return. I was well happy lol
I know the speakers are different but I would not be surprised if the DCB1 was better for the change over the Nichicons of any value.
I have added about 25 albums to my digital collection just to keep testing the setup and I am delighted by everything I've heard.
The latest purchase of a HiRez file has really hit home how good digital can be. I won't lie, I am 100% sure I now need to up the digital game and can see me getting biased in that direction for playback purposes if I can make the next move, the right move.
Sera Una Noche'S "La Segunda" is the best recording I have. Vinyl or digital.
Everyone should start putting recordings like that through their setup, it really demonstrates where you're at.
The 880s are the best bit of luck I've had for a while. In combination with the 686, it's starting to get a bit serious here.
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Post by macca on Sept 30, 2019 7:19:31 GMT
Sera Una Noche'S "La Segunda" -- I had a listen on you-tube. It's too simple a recording to be a test of anything. It's the sort of thing they play at shows to hide the fact that the system is really a bit rubbish despite it costing tens of thousands.
Not listened to the whole album but there doesn't ever seem to be more than the vocal and two instruments playing at once. Easy-peasy for any set up at any level.
This is why I like to test with music like Earth, Wind And Fire. Not only is it more like what I will actually use the system to listen to, it's also got a lot going on at once which will show up any intermodulation distortion. If it can make sense of that it will make sense of anything.
I got a hi-fi to play the music I like, not to play music that makes the hi-fi sound good.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2019 7:57:20 GMT
You say the sound has changed after 50 hours playing. I'd love to have seen some measurements when you first turned it on vs now as I suspect the thing that has changed is how you perceive it. But that's an argument for another day On the other hand, it matters not a jot, as long as you're happy and enjoying it. It could be the drink you're enjoying, the food you ate or just your hormones. Whack 'Stars' by KXM on and see how it manages  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2019 8:08:44 GMT
Sera Una Noche'S "La Segunda" -- I had a listen on you-tube. It's too simple a recording to be a test of anything. It's the sort of thing they play at shows to hide the fact that the system is really a bit rubbish despite it costing tens of thousands. Not listened to the whole album but there doesn't ever seem to be more than the vocal and two instruments playing at once. Easy-peasy for any set up at any level. This is why I like to test with music like Earth, Wind And Fire. Not only is it more like what I will actually use the system to listen to, it's also got a lot going on at once which will show up any intermodulation distortion. If it can make sense of that it will make sense of anything. I got a hi-fi to play the music I like, not to play music that makes the hi-fi sound good. Macca, we all know that simple stuff like a three piece is easy to play back, but what La Segunda gives you isn't easy to reproduce, IF you listen to it.
The Venue where it was recorded was a "live" room. Not a recording studio or overly treated room to improve the quality of sound. Thanks to Todd's approach to the recording, what you get is the opportunity to see if your system can reproduce all the miniscule details. Reflections off the walls, ambience and soundscape.
Whilst you and I totally agree on the merits of sticking some Thin Lizzy up a system to see if it can manage a bit of "Live and Dangerous" there are other ways to see what your system can do. Next time I'm up your way, i'll bring it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2019 8:12:30 GMT
You say the sound has changed after 50 hours playing. I'd love to have seen some measurements when you first turned it on vs now as I suspect the thing that has changed is how you perceive it. But that's an argument for another day On the other hand, it matters not a jot, as long as you're happy and enjoying it. It could be the drink you're enjoying, the food you ate or just your hormones. Whack 'Stars' by KXM on and see how it manages Hahaha, the old burn in debate.
I have actually measured for burn in and we (Alan and I) saw a change in the Square wave. The test was done with a newly built Bigbottle Phonostage and it was tested at 0hrs and again after 100hrs.
Upon it being built, there was overshoot on the HF. After 100hrs the overshoot had disappeared to a nice shaped square edge of 90degs.
People dispute burn in but I 100% accept it, especially after the tests we did.
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Post by sq225917 on Sept 30, 2019 18:32:08 GMT
Burn in is very real, especially with valves and moving parts.
A Paradise will go from 200mV dc offset when flicked on for the first time down to sub mV in about 70 hours. It's just the caps forming which takes a long time due to the low currents involved.
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Post by macca on Sept 30, 2019 18:42:43 GMT
I can see how that works with DIY or maybe cottage industry hi-fi. But wouldn't a commercial product have been soak-tested in the factory long enough for caps to form and so forth? I suppose if it can take 70 hours sometimes not.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2019 20:35:31 GMT
I can see how that works with DIY or maybe cottage industry hi-fi. But wouldn't a commercial product have been soak-tested in the factory long enough for caps to form and so forth? I suppose if it can take 70 hours sometimes not. No way! Test Conditions/soak testing is usually only just long enough to ensure safe operation. I'm glad Simon has chipped in to back up my often seen as ludicrous claims but it's 100% measurable. IF people look for it. But remember, it's all in our heads lol |
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 1, 2019 16:59:02 GMT
Cable burn in, that's bollocks though.
Ts parameters of speaker drivers change, suspension on optics and carts warms up, valve burn in, electrolytic capacitors form, output devices and circuits reach stable conditions. The other stuff is mostly myth.
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Post by macca on Oct 1, 2019 17:08:46 GMT
I had that little TPA3116 chip map off Geoff. When I first put it in I thought it wasn't bad but clearly a big step down from what I had been using.
After two weeks I was pretty happy with it. Not burn in because it wasn't new and Geoff had been using it before he mailed it to me. Just me getting used to it. But if I had bought it brand new I could be forgiven for thinking that was burn in. But if it was brand new it could also have been the burning in. But I suspect acclimatising to a different sound eclipses any changes from burn in anyway.
Speakers you can see would need to be run in, the more sensitive they are the more needed. Funny thing is I've had a fair few pairs of brand new speakers and never noticed them change with burn in. So these big changes other people report, I don't know. 'Straight out the box they sounded terrible...' seems to be a line I read a lot in both pro and amateur reviews.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 17:19:49 GMT
I've been burning in some new underpants today. A couple more big farts should see it done!  |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 17:41:21 GMT
Cable burn in, that's bollocks though. Ts parameters of speaker drivers change, suspension on optics and carts warms up, valve burn in, electrolytic capacitors form, output devices and circuits reach stable conditions. The other stuff is mostly myth. we'll have to agree to disagree there. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 1, 2019 17:47:58 GMT
I had that little TPA3116 chip map off Geoff. When I first put it in I thought it wasn't bad but clearly a big step down from what I had been using. After two weeks I was pretty happy with it. Not burn in because it wasn't new and Geoff had been using it before he mailed it to me. Just me getting used to it. But if I had bought it brand new I could be forgiven for thinking that was burn in. But if it was brand new it could also have been the burning in. But I suspect acclimatising to a different sound eclipses any changes from burn in anyway. Speakers you can see would need to be run in, the more sensitive they are the more needed. Funny thing is I've had a fair few pairs of brand new speakers and never noticed them change with burn in. So these big changes other people report, I don't know. 'Straight out the box they sounded terrible...' seems to be a line I read a lot in both pro and amateur reviews. I’m with you on burn in. I don’t necessarily doubt that some items may change slightly, but the whole “it sounded shite so I let it run in and it was wonderful” is one of two things going on: 1: They got used to the sound. 2. They convinced themselves it had improved because received wisdom was that it sounded good and they didn’t what to be out of step with groupthink. I can’t recall anything sounding shite then coming good and I’ve had a helluva lot of shite through my hands. |
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Post by macca on Oct 1, 2019 17:49:04 GMT
I never heard my Spotfires burn in and I really did try. I just don't see how it is possible to notice something burn in gradually over 100 hours or whatever even if it does.
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Post by macca on Oct 1, 2019 17:54:22 GMT
I had that little TPA3116 chip map off Geoff. When I first put it in I thought it wasn't bad but clearly a big step down from what I had been using. After two weeks I was pretty happy with it. Not burn in because it wasn't new and Geoff had been using it before he mailed it to me. Just me getting used to it. But if I had bought it brand new I could be forgiven for thinking that was burn in. But if it was brand new it could also have been the burning in. But I suspect acclimatising to a different sound eclipses any changes from burn in anyway. Speakers you can see would need to be run in, the more sensitive they are the more needed. Funny thing is I've had a fair few pairs of brand new speakers and never noticed them change with burn in. So these big changes other people report, I don't know. 'Straight out the box they sounded terrible...' seems to be a line I read a lot in both pro and amateur reviews. I can’t recall anything sounding shite then coming good and I’ve had a helluva lot of shite through my hands. Me also. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 17:54:53 GMT
I never heard my Spotfires burn in and I really did try. I just don't see how it is possible to notice something burn in gradually over 100 hours or whatever even if it does. It's a shame you didn't hear it but it's been reported elsewhere that a change does happen with them. I don't know why a cable would but it does happen. It's not night and day, its a subtle change in the soundstage. It opens up and i have heard it regularly. Just one of those things. I am 100% positive on it. It spawned my interest in measuring the phonostage for burn in. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 17:58:03 GMT
I had that little TPA3116 chip map off Geoff. When I first put it in I thought it wasn't bad but clearly a big step down from what I had been using. After two weeks I was pretty happy with it. Not burn in because it wasn't new and Geoff had been using it before he mailed it to me. Just me getting used to it. But if I had bought it brand new I could be forgiven for thinking that was burn in. But if it was brand new it could also have been the burning in. But I suspect acclimatising to a different sound eclipses any changes from burn in anyway. Speakers you can see would need to be run in, the more sensitive they are the more needed. Funny thing is I've had a fair few pairs of brand new speakers and never noticed them change with burn in. So these big changes other people report, I don't know. 'Straight out the box they sounded terrible...' seems to be a line I read a lot in both pro and amateur reviews. I’m with you on burn in. I don’t necessarily doubt that some items may change slightly, but the whole “it sounded shite so I let it run in and it was wonderful” is one of two things going on: 1: They got used to the sound. 2. They convinced themselves it had improved because received wisdom was that it sounded good and they didn’t what to be out of step with groupthink. I can’t recall anything sounding shite then coming good and I’ve had a helluva lot of shite through my hands. I've not had anything start off as Sh#t and then miraculously become great. What happens is usually a bit of kit sounds a bit sharp/edgy/tight then after a few hours it relaxes. It's not you getting used to it, it has burned in and settled down. How many here buy brand new items? Id suggest burn in is often overlooked because by the time folk get stuff, its a few years old and already run in.. |
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Post by macca on Oct 1, 2019 18:12:52 GMT
I never heard my Spotfires burn in and I really did try. I just don't see how it is possible to notice something burn in gradually over 100 hours or whatever even if it does. It's a shame you didn't hear it but it's been reported elsewhere that a change does happen with them. I don't know why a cable would but it does happen. It's not night and day, its a subtle change in the soundstage. It opens up and i have heard it regularly. Just one of those things. I am 100% positive on it. It spawned my interest in measuring the phonostage for burn in. If you recall you deliberately never told me what to listen for. If I'd known it was that I would have paid more attention, have to confess that a lot of the time I don't listen on axis.  Tone is more important to me than soundstage. Although I know a proper holographic soundstage is mesmerising in its awesomeness I can't seem to get there in my room. Too narrow. So I don't generally bother sitting central anymore. Maybe with masses of room treatment I could do it but that's not going to happen soon if at all. |
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 1, 2019 18:15:33 GMT
Thing is there's mechanisms for all those other accepted burn in examples, there are no scientifically accepted changes in cable values with use, none.
Audiophiles are the only people who believe in it.
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Post by macca on Oct 1, 2019 18:25:25 GMT
Accepting that what we perceive is not necessarily connected in any way to external reality is counter intuitive though. Accepting that it happens a lot is quite scary.
I'm not averse to the idea of there being something overlooked though. People always talk about doing a proper blind test comparing burned in cables to the same cable fresh but it never seems to happen.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 18:54:28 GMT
Thing is there's mechanisms for all those other accepted burn in examples, there are no scientifically accepted changes in cable values with use, none. Audiophiles are the only people who believe in it. Christians are the only ones who believe in Jesus, but look at their numbers lol Just because we cant measure/see it, doesn't mean it ain't there. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 18:55:53 GMT
Accepting that what we perceive is not necessarily connected in any way to external reality is counter intuitive though. Accepting that it happens a lot is quite scary. I'm not averse to the idea of there being something overlooked though. People always talk about doing a proper blind test comparing burned in cables to the same cable fresh but it never seems to happen. We can do that Macca. I'll make a brand new pair of cables, never plug them in and we can do it. You won't know which is which. If you cant tell, fair enough. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2019 18:57:26 GMT
It's a shame you didn't hear it but it's been reported elsewhere that a change does happen with them. I don't know why a cable would but it does happen. It's not night and day, its a subtle change in the soundstage. It opens up and i have heard it regularly. Just one of those things. I am 100% positive on it. It spawned my interest in measuring the phonostage for burn in. If you recall you deliberately never told me what to listen for. If I'd known it was that I would have paid more attention, have to confess that a lot of the time I don't listen on axis. Tone is more important to me than soundstage. Although I know a proper holographic soundstage is mesmerising in its awesomeness I can't seem to get there in my room. Too narrow. So I don't generally bother sitting central anymore. Maybe with masses of room treatment I could do it but that's not going to happen soon if at all. I didn't tell you because if you heard it and you told me, i would have been proved right. Unfortunately, it didn't happen. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 3, 2019 17:53:09 GMT
I searched through all my mags but I couldn’t find anything on MS Performance speakers.
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Post by macca on Oct 3, 2019 18:28:46 GMT
I'm 90% sure I have one on an old Hi Fi World. But that's about 140 issues I'd have to look through. All I can recall is that it is a Noel Keywood review and that the speakers were made of Resin Rock. When are they from, late 1990s? That would narrow it down a bit for me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2019 18:40:50 GMT
I'm 90% sure I have one on an old Hi Fi World. But that's about 140 issues I'd have to look through. All I can recall is that it is a Noel Keywood review and that the speakers were made of Resin Rock. When are they from, late 1990s? That would narrow it down a bit for me. Why can’t you just have old porn mags like a normal bloke 😂😂😂 |
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Tone is more important to me than soundstage. Although I know a proper holographic soundstage is mesmerising in its awesomeness I can't seem to get there in my room. Too narrow. So I don't generally bother sitting central anymore. Maybe with masses of room treatment I could do it but that's not going to happen soon if at all.