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Post by antonio on Dec 22, 2020 11:58:52 GMT
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 22, 2020 12:42:52 GMT
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Post by jandl100 on Dec 22, 2020 17:13:19 GMT
I suspect they are fairly good actually!
The stumbling block of course is that they are white.
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Post by jimbo on Dec 22, 2020 18:03:22 GMT
I suspect they are fairly good actually! The stumbling block of course is that they are white. Haha I was thinking that  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 22, 2020 21:45:11 GMT
Just a bit of fun. Without Googling the Answer, Which speaker costs more: A  OR B  |
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Post by firebottle on Dec 22, 2020 21:56:54 GMT
A?
Pretty crap though with that suck-out at 2.8kHz.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 22, 2020 22:39:43 GMT
A? Pretty crap though with that suck-out at 2.8kHz. Dip AND peak. |
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Post by macca on Dec 23, 2020 8:49:33 GMT
Both have pretty much the same response not a lot to choose. I'd guess they are both two-way speakers? I'll say 'A'
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 8:51:33 GMT
Both have pretty much the same response not a lot to choose. I'd guess they are both two-way speakers? I'll say 'A' Yes, not too much between them is there. I'll reveal what's what a little later. |
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Post by misterc on Dec 23, 2020 8:57:11 GMT
As I mention last night Oli very little to choose between the Heco and ASW  |
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Post by macca on Dec 23, 2020 9:01:37 GMT
You need to look at three-way speakers if you want any hope of getting something as good as the Yams. 2 way is huge compromise.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 9:13:49 GMT
You need to look at three-way speakers if you want any hope of getting something as good as the Yams. 2 way is huge compromise. Not that easy Macca. A three way in floor standing size make it very difficult to shoehorn into the room and keep things under control. Normal bookshelf size speakers aren't fitting the bill either. |
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Post by karma67 on Dec 23, 2020 9:38:35 GMT
what is the problem with the yams by the way?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 9:54:20 GMT
what is the problem with the yams by the way? There is no "problem" with the Yams. They are without doubt one of the best speakers i have heard and i have held that opinion since i heard a pair for the first time. However, there is something i am missing and as of yet i am unable to put my finger on it. The Quadral Aurum Galan 9's had it, but not enough presence. The Mordaunt Short had it, but they had WAY too much bass for my room, and the Heco Celan GT702 have it...but are too big for my room also. The KEF LS50 had it too, but they had no freedom or expression. Too Rigid sounding. I strongly suspect the Heco GT Celan 502 and the ASW Genius 410 have it, and they are the two graphs above. As you all know, once you've heard "it" you can't go back. The RRP of the ASW were £3500 The RRP of the Heco GT502 were £1299.00 Not much between them measurement wise yet the price is quite an eye opener! My concern for the 410 is that the Ceramic tweeter may be a bit shouty. The Tweeter in the Heco Celan range is probably the best tweeter i have heard. Fine margins. |
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Post by macca on Dec 23, 2020 10:47:13 GMT
it would help if you could say what the Yams lack but my guess is the bass isn't deep enough on them. Especuially as you donl;t really have a solid wall to put them up against, just those glass doors.
With Jim's Heco 702 you are not just hearing the speaker but also his room and he has the space to get them away from the side and rear walls. In a good room like that most competently designed speakers will sound pretty good.
I think the 502, being a 2 way with fairly hefty bass alignment won't work that well and in any case won't be as good as the 3 way 702
Assuming massive room treatment (bass traps or helmholtz resonators) is out of the question then I think your options are limited to a speaker with less bass or using digital correction. Don't know if you can implement Roon into your current set up? OFC would not work with vinyl unless you use an ADC so probably rules that out.
Tannoy DC will work, as will the larger JBls with the waveguide compression drivers, but then you are into more money, especially for the JBL. Been said before I think but the Tannoy Eatons might be worth looking at. Jerry excepted people are rarely disappointed with Tannoy DCs.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 11:08:17 GMT
it would help if you could say what the Yams lack but my guess is the bass isn't deep enough on them. Especuially as you donl;t really have a solid wall to put them up against, just those glass doors. With Jim's Heco 702 you are not just hearing the speaker but also his room and he has the space to get them away from the side and rear walls. In a good room like that most competently designed speakers will sound pretty good. I think the 502, being a 2 way with fairly hefty bass alignment won't work that well and in any case won't be as good as the 3 way 702 Assuming massive room treatment (bass traps or helmholtz resonators) is out of the question then I think your options are limited to a speaker with less bass or using digital correction. Don't know if you can implement Roon into your current set up? OFC would not work with vinyl unless you use an ADC so probably rules that out. Tannoy DC will work, as will the larger JBls with the waveguide compression drivers, but then you are into more money, especially for the JBL. Been said before I think but the Tannoy Eatons might be worth looking at. Jerry excepted people are rarely disappointed with Tannoy DCs. Ok, so the best way to describe it is this....Clarity/resolution? The Yams are incredibly neutral, image well and believe it or not they don't lack bass. They are actually right on the spot in that regard. They work incredibly well in the room and i have no complaints...except for the Clarity/Resolution, which i am not sure is the right description. So, Listening (in my room) to the Quadrals, the singer would step out of the speakers in to a central location and there would be clear definition of who was doing what in the track. Very very clear. Separating the strands of music like peeling an onion. The HECO's do this too, but on a much larger scale. I didn't hear the HECO's at Jim's BTW, it was at Angus's and the room is not contribuing to this factor, because i have had it here too, with two very different speakers. The Performance 880 were the first speaker i ever heard that seemed to be totally detached from what was happening in front of me. Like things were happening in the ether yet the clarity and 4K resolution of the music was along with it. This is what the Yam's arent doing. The ethereal presentaion is there, absolutely. The imaging at times is quite astonishing considering the wide front design etc, but its all in 1080P HD...not 4K like the MS880's and certainly not 8K like the Quadrals and Hecos. The Quadrals and the Heco are almost uninhibited listening experiences. Ineed that. I have also had this happen with speaker cables, speaker jumpers and interconnects. It's like the sound takes on a whole new dimension to it and once heard you cannot live without it in your system. maybe it's lack of distortion? I just dont know, but i do know that i want that resolution back MORE than i need earth crushing bass. The yams give detail, neutrality, scale, imaging and weight, as much as anyone would ever need...but they are just missing that little bit extra. |
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Post by karma67 on Dec 23, 2020 11:27:49 GMT
it would help if you could say what the Yams lack but my guess is the bass isn't deep enough on them. Especuially as you donl;t really have a solid wall to put them up against, just those glass doors. With Jim's Heco 702 you are not just hearing the speaker but also his room and he has the space to get them away from the side and rear walls. In a good room like that most competently designed speakers will sound pretty good. I think the 502, being a 2 way with fairly hefty bass alignment won't work that well and in any case won't be as good as the 3 way 702 Assuming massive room treatment (bass traps or helmholtz resonators) is out of the question then I think your options are limited to a speaker with less bass or using digital correction. Don't know if you can implement Roon into your current set up? OFC would not work with vinyl unless you use an ADC so probably rules that out. Tannoy DC will work, as will the larger JBls with the waveguide compression drivers, but then you are into more money, especially for the JBL. Been said before I think but the Tannoy Eatons might be worth looking at. Jerry excepted people are rarely disappointed with Tannoy DCs. Ok, so the best way to describe it is this....Clarity/resolution? The Yams are incredibly neutral, image well and believe it or not they don't lack bass. They are actually right on the spot in that regard. They work incredibly well in the room and i have no complaints...except for the Clarity/Resolution, which i am not sure is the right description. So, Listening (in my room) to the Quadrals, the singer would step out of the speakers in to a central location and there would be clear definition of who was doing what in the track. Very very clear. Separating the strands of music like peeling an onion. The HECO's do this too, but on a much larger scale. I didn't hear the HECO's at Jim's BTW, it was at Angus's and the room is not contribuing to this factor, because i have had it here too, with two very different speakers. The Performance 880 were the first speaker i ever heard that seemed to be totally detached from what was happening in front of me. Like things were happening in the ether yet the clarity and 4K resolution of the music was along with it. This is what the Yam's arent doing. The ethereal presentaion is there, absolutely. The imaging at times is quite astonishing considering the wide front design etc, but its all in 1080P HD...not 4K like the MS880's and certainly not 8K like the Quadrals and Hecos. The Quadrals and the Heco are almost uninhibited listening experiences. Ineed that. I have also had this happen with speaker cables, speaker jumpers and interconnects. It's like the sound takes on a whole new dimension to it and once heard you cannot live without it in your system. maybe it's lack of distortion? I just dont know, but i do know that i want that resolution back MORE than i need earth crushing bass. The yams give detail, neutrality, scale, imaging and weight, as much as anyone would ever need...but they are just missing that little bit extra. hmm intersting,i have never heard the yams lack clarity or resolution before,in fact id go so far as to say its one of their strengths. have you tried positioning them properly? also have you played with the attenuators'? good stands improve them a lot and also tilted back too as well as toe in.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 11:41:22 GMT
Ok, so the best way to describe it is this....Clarity/resolution? The Yams are incredibly neutral, image well and believe it or not they don't lack bass. They are actually right on the spot in that regard. They work incredibly well in the room and i have no complaints...except for the Clarity/Resolution, which i am not sure is the right description. So, Listening (in my room) to the Quadrals, the singer would step out of the speakers in to a central location and there would be clear definition of who was doing what in the track. Very very clear. Separating the strands of music like peeling an onion. The HECO's do this too, but on a much larger scale. I didn't hear the HECO's at Jim's BTW, it was at Angus's and the room is not contribuing to this factor, because i have had it here too, with two very different speakers. The Performance 880 were the first speaker i ever heard that seemed to be totally detached from what was happening in front of me. Like things were happening in the ether yet the clarity and 4K resolution of the music was along with it. This is what the Yam's arent doing. The ethereal presentaion is there, absolutely. The imaging at times is quite astonishing considering the wide front design etc, but its all in 1080P HD...not 4K like the MS880's and certainly not 8K like the Quadrals and Hecos. The Quadrals and the Heco are almost uninhibited listening experiences. Ineed that. I have also had this happen with speaker cables, speaker jumpers and interconnects. It's like the sound takes on a whole new dimension to it and once heard you cannot live without it in your system. maybe it's lack of distortion? I just dont know, but i do know that i want that resolution back MORE than i need earth crushing bass. The yams give detail, neutrality, scale, imaging and weight, as much as anyone would ever need...but they are just missing that little bit extra. hmm intersting,i have never heard the yams lack clarity or resolution before,in fact id go so far as to say its one of their strengths. have you tried positioning them properly? also have you played with the attenuators'? good stands improve them a lot and also tilted back too as well as toe in.
Like i say, the "description" may not be the right use of words, as i have found it very difficult to really pin down what it all boils down to. It could be imaging? Could be a slight softness....i just cant put my finger on it, but i know that they arent doing what the Quadrals did (albeit they had shortcomings too) or the HECO's (No shortcomings i could hear, and posibly the best speaker i have ever heard in a domestic environment). I have measured the trim pots to at least make sure they are both the same on each speaker, and the positioning is setup at about 330mm from the floor, toed in enough to focus the image and leaning slightly back a couple of degrees. Not sure what else i can do with them in that regard? I'm definitly not criticising the Yams and i do really love them. Trouble with me is i get a nagging feeling when i know something isn't delivering what i know i can get out of my system. |
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Post by misterc on Dec 23, 2020 11:47:24 GMT
I have rebuilt many pairs of Yammy's over the years and still have a pair that I have improve at a touch.
A suggestion to Oli, you could keep the Yammy's and rebuild the x/overs correctly and re-weire them, measure the cabinets and take appropriate action for there 40 year short comings. That may let you keep them if you like them a lot save the hassle of speaker auditioning unitl you find a better environment. Just a thought as you could do this over time at you pace. Or you RTA the room which will give the information you need to select the right speakers.
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Post by firebottle on Dec 23, 2020 11:48:47 GMT
Perhaps it is the caps in the Xovers letting the side down?
How old are the speakers?
EDIT: It seems Tony is having the same thoughts.
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Post by karma67 on Dec 23, 2020 11:54:17 GMT
I have rebuilt many pairs of Yammy's over the years and still have a pair that I have improve at a touch. A suggestion to Oli, you could keep the Yammy's and rebuild the x/overs correctly and re-weire them, measure the cabinets and take appropriate action for there 40 year short comings. That may let you keep them if you like them a lot save the hassle of speaker auditioning unitl you find a better environment. Just a thought as you could do this over time at you pace. Or you RTA the room which will give the information you need to select the right speakers. if it helps oli i have a spare set of standard crossovers,if you can be bothered your welcome to try them? i understand that nagging feeling too mate,its a curse!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 11:57:01 GMT
misterc & firebottleYes, this was my first thought too. I do suspect that a rewire and a new set of caps may bring a modicum of improvement to things, but do i want to spend a few hundred quid doing that (you know i don't do cheap parts) and then still maybe not be convinced?, then have a set of heavily modified speakers to try and shift. Or does one just accept that whilst i'll probably not settle on a pair of speakers for some time, it could be fun to try a few pairs out? I get the whole point of having the room measured, but where is the fun in that lol.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 11:57:57 GMT
I have rebuilt many pairs of Yammy's over the years and still have a pair that I have improve at a touch. A suggestion to Oli, you could keep the Yammy's and rebuild the x/overs correctly and re-weire them, measure the cabinets and take appropriate action for there 40 year short comings. That may let you keep them if you like them a lot save the hassle of speaker auditioning unitl you find a better environment. Just a thought as you could do this over time at you pace. Or you RTA the room which will give the information you need to select the right speakers. if it helps oli i have a spare set of standard crossovers,if you can be bothered your welcome to try them? Was there much change when you redid your crossovers? If so what would you describe were the changes? I do love the yams and a bit of me is very reluctant to let them go. |
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Post by karma67 on Dec 23, 2020 11:59:48 GMT
if it helps oli i have a spare set of standard crossovers,if you can be bothered your welcome to try them? Was there much change when you redid your crossovers? If so what would you describe were the changes? I do love the yams and a bit of me is very reluctant to let them go. do you mean me? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 12:02:33 GMT
Was there much change when you redid your crossovers? If so what would you describe were the changes? I do love the yams and a bit of me is very reluctant to let them go. do you mean me? Yes matey. |
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Post by macca on Dec 23, 2020 12:14:58 GMT
My guess is the Yams are just too neutral. The Heco and Quadral have a 'modern' sound with more midrange emphasis (don't know about the MS) - on a neutral speaker the singer should not 'step out into the room' they should be behind the plane of the speakers. Projection forward of that is a colouration.
I very much doubt that re-doing the x-overs will change anything. And going to a 2 way speaker from the Yams will be a step back in everything.
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Post by misterc on Dec 23, 2020 12:30:58 GMT
misterc & firebottle Yes, this was my first thought too. I do suspect that a rewire and a new set of caps may bring a modicum of improvement to things, but do i want to spend a few hundred quid doing that (you know i don't do cheap parts) and then still maybe not be convinced?, then have a set of heavily modified speakers to try and shift. Or does one just accept that whilst i'll probably not settle on a pair of speakers for some time, it could be fun to try a few pairs out? I get the whole point of having the room measured, but where is the fun in that lol. I did a pair of my own about 16 years ago, I did go to town on them in fairness total overhaul of the X/overs, not just caps added damping full rewire, new binding posts and much better acoustic solution inside. The difference (once the ball ache of running in was achieved I have a good wheeze for this, one of the business properties we use has a nice couple of empty rooms, so they are placed in there set up out of phase, two duvets and 1Kw of some mono's I knocked up a few years ago, three-four days at 88-91dB and hey job done.) was quite profound they DO NOT loose the Yammy sound at all, the gain much more presence, far greater transparency which for myself it there big weakness, much improved fluidity as well. Personally I found it to be a worth while upgrade still have them in storage along with over 100 pairs of speakers (really must make more of an effect in selling them  ) Though going to back to Oli's comment about cost I did use custom made inductors, full V-caps (again specially made values for me) and Caddock thick metal films Resistors on custom heat-sinks from memory I believe it was around £1200 (then) to do the job properly I spent around 30 hours getting the result I was looking for both in build quality and sound performance. Now I am sure you could improve these for around £350-500 and make some great improvements not everyone is an particular as myself in these areas so I am the odd one out here  Remember Pioneer (TAD) bought the Yammy factory where they made the Be drivers a good 30+ years ago. |
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Post by karma67 on Dec 23, 2020 12:39:00 GMT
ah sorry i thought you were talking to mr.c ive not touched mine yet,not felt the need in all honesty. the one thing i did when i first got them was to fit good quality binding posts. also when you do this you will see the shock of how thin the the 2 wires are that go from them to the crossover.i changed them out straight away. all the other internal wire that goes to the drivers actually is of a decent thickness. im sure you've read that changing the caps doesn't yeld a huge upgrade,something i've also experienced with both my ditton 44 and 66's.what does give better results is the inductors. i plan to do the lot and have them external in the new year but as i said earlier i dont feel the need to do it in a hurry. apart form the binding posts the only other thing i have done is do away with the l-pads. that in my room made a big difference,easy to do as i used choc blocks to connect the resistors as a temp solution. for what its worth my placement measurements are these.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 12:39:25 GMT
My guess is the Yams are just too neutral. The Heco and Quadral have a 'modern' sound with more midrange emphasis (don't know about the MS) - on a neutral speaker the singer should not 'step out into the room' they should be behind the plane of the speakers. Projection forward of that is a colouration. I very much doubt that re-doing the x-overs will change anything. And going to a 2 way speaker from the Yams will be a step back in everything. No, they dont step out in front of the speakers.... It's hard to describe, which is why i hadn't even tried lol, buit it's not neutrality either. They arent too neutral for me. I love their tonality and i find them to be entirely honest about everything that goes through them. I love the neutrality. Right, so last attempt at an explanation: On Hans Theesink & Terry Evans's - Mother Earth, there is an open "e" played at 26seconds in. On the Quadrals, Ms880's, Hecos and LS50's, the metallic sharpness and zing of a bottom E string is 100% convincing. The Quadrals make that note a touch leaner due to the speaker size, but the resolution of the note is as good as the others. On the Yam's that note is a little softer....less metallic, less precise.....thats the word!!!! They are not as precise or pin sharp as the others. |
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Post by karma67 on Dec 23, 2020 12:42:17 GMT
My guess is the Yams are just too neutral. The Heco and Quadral have a 'modern' sound with more midrange emphasis (don't know about the MS) - on a neutral speaker the singer should not 'step out into the room' they should be behind the plane of the speakers. Projection forward of that is a colouration. I very much doubt that re-doing the x-overs will change anything. And going to a 2 way speaker from the Yams will be a step back in everything. funny you should mention that martin,thats excactly what mine do with the image. |
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) Though going to back to Oli's comment about cost I did use custom made inductors, full V-caps (again specially made values for me) and Caddock thick metal films Resistors on custom heat-sinks from memory I believe it was around £1200 (then) to do the job properly I spent around 30 hours getting the result I was looking for both in build quality and sound performance.
