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Post by misterc on Dec 23, 2020 12:42:22 GMT
RESOLUTION is the word
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 12:42:22 GMT
ah sorry i thought you were talking to mr.c ive not touched mine yet,not felt the need in all honesty. the one thing i did when i first got them was to fit good quality binding posts. also when you do this you will see the shock of how thin the the 2 wires are that go from them to the crossover.i changed them out straight away. all the other internal wire that goes to the drivers actually is of a decent thickness. im sure you've read that changing the caps doesn't yeld a huge upgrade,something i've also experienced with both my ditton 44 and 66's.what does give better results is the inductors. i plan to do the lot and have them external in the new year but as i said earlier i dont feel the need to do it in a hurry. apart form the binding posts the only other thing i have done is do away with the l-pads. that in my room made a big difference,easy to do as i used choc blocks to connect the resistors as a temp solution. for what its worth my placement measurements are these. What value resistor did you fit? I am inclined to maybe perservere a little with them. What did your spare XO's cost? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 12:43:29 GMT
misterc & firebottle Yes, this was my first thought too. I do suspect that a rewire and a new set of caps may bring a modicum of improvement to things, but do i want to spend a few hundred quid doing that (you know i don't do cheap parts) and then still maybe not be convinced?, then have a set of heavily modified speakers to try and shift. Or does one just accept that whilst i'll probably not settle on a pair of speakers for some time, it could be fun to try a few pairs out? I get the whole point of having the room measured, but where is the fun in that lol. I did a pair of my own about 16 years ago, I did go to town on them in fairness total overhaul of the X/overs, not just caps added damping full rewire, new binding posts and much better acoustic solution inside. The difference (once the ball ache of running in was achieved I have a good wheeze for this, one of the business properties we use has a nice couple of empty rooms, so they are placed in there set up out of phase, two duvets and 1Kw of some mono's I knocked up a few years ago, three-four days at 88-91dB and hey job done.) was quite profound they DO NOT loose the Yammy sound at all, the gain much more presence, far greater transparency which for myself it there big weakness, much improved fluidity as well. Personally I found it to be a worth while upgrade still have them in storage along with over 100 pairs of speakers (really must make more of an effect in selling them  ) Though going to back to Oli's comment about cost I did use custom made inductors, full V-caps (again specially made values for me) and Caddock thick metal films Resistors on custom heat-sinks from memory I believe it was around £1200 (then) to do the job properly I spent around 30 hours getting the result I was looking for both in build quality and sound performance. Now I am sure you could improve these for around £350-500 and make some great improvements not everyone is an particular as myself in these areas so I am the odd one out here  Remember Pioneer (TAD) bought the Yammy factory where they made the Be drivers a good 30+ years ago. Got a recipe? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 12:45:55 GMT
You know what i am talking about, dont you T. There is intrinsically nothing wrong with the speaker, they just dont go as far as other do into the recording. Trouble is i have heard those speakers. The Quadral, the TAD, The HECO, the MS880's, the LS50'.....they all did it. They all had their own personal issues in other areas (Except the HECO. F#ck me, what a sound we got out of those), but i see the NS1000 as having all the other stuff going for it. |
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Post by macca on Dec 23, 2020 12:55:15 GMT
My guess is the Yams are just too neutral. The Heco and Quadral have a 'modern' sound with more midrange emphasis (don't know about the MS) - on a neutral speaker the singer should not 'step out into the room' they should be behind the plane of the speakers. Projection forward of that is a colouration. I very much doubt that re-doing the x-overs will change anything. And going to a 2 way speaker from the Yams will be a step back in everything. No, they dont step out in front of the speakers.... It's hard to describe, which is why i hadn't even tried lol, buit it's not neutrality either. They arent too neutral for me. I love their tonality and i find them to be entirely honest about everything that goes through them. I love the neutrality. Right, so last attempt at an explanation: On Hans Theesink & Terry Evans's - Mother Earth, there is an open "e" played at 26seconds in. On the Quadrals, Ms880's, Hecos and LS50's, the metallic sharpness and zing of a bottom E string is 100% convincing. The Quadrals make that note a touch leaner due to the speaker size, but the resolution of the note is as good as the others. On the Yam's that note is a little softer....less metallic, less precise.....thats the word!!!! They are not as precise or pin sharp as the others. Well the bottom E on a 6 string is 82hz assuming standard tuning so that will be the bass driver's job - there's the harmonics too though ofc. But the bass driver is said to be the weakest part of the NS1000M. Surprised that the KEF LS50 does it better than the Yams though. But it's that 'modern' sound again. Are the Yams accurate to the recording and the others have false emphasis? Could be. But if you don't like it you don't like it. Would be a pain to go through a xover re-build and various other mods just to find it made no difference to that aspect of them. I still think you should have a borrow of the Audiovectors I have here. They do that 'zing' thing better than most. |
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Post by karma67 on Dec 23, 2020 13:09:14 GMT
ah sorry i thought you were talking to mr.c ive not touched mine yet,not felt the need in all honesty. the one thing i did when i first got them was to fit good quality binding posts. also when you do this you will see the shock of how thin the the 2 wires are that go from them to the crossover.i changed them out straight away. all the other internal wire that goes to the drivers actually is of a decent thickness. im sure you've read that changing the caps doesn't yeld a huge upgrade,something i've also experienced with both my ditton 44 and 66's.what does give better results is the inductors. i plan to do the lot and have them external in the new year but as i said earlier i dont feel the need to do it in a hurry. apart form the binding posts the only other thing i have done is do away with the l-pads. that in my room made a big difference,easy to do as i used choc blocks to connect the resistors as a temp solution. for what its worth my placement measurements are these. What value resistor did you fit? I am inclined to maybe perservere a little with them. What did your spare XO's cost? they were £100 but i had to wait a while for a pair to come up. i'll find the info on the resistors. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 13:13:33 GMT
No, they dont step out in front of the speakers.... It's hard to describe, which is why i hadn't even tried lol, buit it's not neutrality either. They arent too neutral for me. I love their tonality and i find them to be entirely honest about everything that goes through them. I love the neutrality. Right, so last attempt at an explanation: On Hans Theesink & Terry Evans's - Mother Earth, there is an open "e" played at 26seconds in. On the Quadrals, Ms880's, Hecos and LS50's, the metallic sharpness and zing of a bottom E string is 100% convincing. The Quadrals make that note a touch leaner due to the speaker size, but the resolution of the note is as good as the others. On the Yam's that note is a little softer....less metallic, less precise.....thats the word!!!! They are not as precise or pin sharp as the others. Well the bottom E on a 6 string is 82hz assuming standard tuning so that will be the bass driver's job - there's the harmonics too though ofc. But the bass driver is said to be the weakest part of the NS1000M. Surprised that the KEF LS50 does it better than the Yams though. But it's that 'modern' sound again. Are the Yams accurate to the recording and the others have false emphasis? Could be. But if you don't like it you don't like it. Would be a pain to go through a xover re-build and various other mods just to find it made no difference to that aspect of them. I still think you should have a borrow of the Audiovectors I have here. They do that 'zing' thing better than most. Well, i'll bring the Yams up and loan your Audiovector thingys. Make you a new member of the NS1000 club. How does that sound? Make the sale as looking at the specs, i don't think the mods will alter that 12" bass drivers characteristics? I'll bring your Krell too. |
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Post by karma67 on Dec 23, 2020 13:15:36 GMT
Well the bottom E on a 6 string is 82hz assuming standard tuning so that will be the bass driver's job - there's the harmonics too though ofc. But the bass driver is said to be the weakest part of the NS1000M. Surprised that the KEF LS50 does it better than the Yams though. But it's that 'modern' sound again. Are the Yams accurate to the recording and the others have false emphasis? Could be. But if you don't like it you don't like it. Would be a pain to go through a xover re-build and various other mods just to find it made no difference to that aspect of them. I still think you should have a borrow of the Audiovectors I have here. They do that 'zing' thing better than most. Well, i'll bring the Yams up and loan your Audiovector thingys. Make you a new member of the NS1000 club. How does that sound? Make the sale as looking at the specs, i don't think the mods will alter that 12" bass drivers characteristics? I'll bring your Krell too. removing the l-pads and putting resistors in does without a doubt |
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Post by karma67 on Dec 23, 2020 13:21:52 GMT
to quote paul,
This provides a close match to anechoic flat or HF down around 8dB from LF peak and Mids down a little less. The HF then rises again by 5dB by 11KHz which offers some needed F-M compensation for average listening levels. If you adopt these values you help restore better phase relationships between drive units, especially bass to mid which I suspected was out when I saw some on-line measurements and confirmed on listening tests. Bass sounds cleaner and tauter now (Bass inductor DCR reduced from 0.4 to 0.25R and power handling before saturation increased). It is also lifted wrt mids and HF which makes the speakers sound more lively in the bass region now.
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Post by misterc on Dec 23, 2020 13:45:13 GMT
Yammy's are find far from true neutral doesn't make them bad at all imho, but if you really had a rule flat 20hz-20Khz amp response, and truly neutral speakers you would be bored stupid with sound. It would make Harbeth's sound like PMC's The sound scape behind the speakers in the key here you CAN have this and a true being there live feel to the sound no problem at all with modern speakers and they do not produce a mid forward sound if they have correctly implemented |
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Post by macca on Dec 23, 2020 13:47:51 GMT
Well the bottom E on a 6 string is 82hz assuming standard tuning so that will be the bass driver's job - there's the harmonics too though ofc. But the bass driver is said to be the weakest part of the NS1000M. Surprised that the KEF LS50 does it better than the Yams though. But it's that 'modern' sound again. Are the Yams accurate to the recording and the others have false emphasis? Could be. But if you don't like it you don't like it. Would be a pain to go through a xover re-build and various other mods just to find it made no difference to that aspect of them. I still think you should have a borrow of the Audiovectors I have here. They do that 'zing' thing better than most. Well, i'll bring the Yams up and loan your Audiovector thingys. Make you a new member of the NS1000 club. How does that sound? Make the sale as looking at the specs, i don't think the mods will alter that 12" bass drivers characteristics? I'll bring your Krell too. I give you a buy back option on the Yams, just in case after while you decide they were the best after all  |
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Post by macca on Dec 23, 2020 13:50:38 GMT
Yammy's are find far from true neutral doesn't make them bad at all imho, but if you really had a rule flat 20hz-20Khz amp response, and truly neutral speakers you would be bored stupid with sound. It would make Harbeth's sound like PMC's Well no speaker is anywhere close to truly neutral, not sure I agree with the second bit - I'd like to give it a try anyway. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 14:17:40 GMT
Well, i'll bring the Yams up and loan your Audiovector thingys. Make you a new member of the NS1000 club. How does that sound? Make the sale as looking at the specs, i don't think the mods will alter that 12" bass drivers characteristics? I'll bring your Krell too. I give you a buy back option on the Yams, just in case after while you decide they were the best after all You're a good un. I rarely go back but this time could be different. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 14:18:10 GMT
to quote paul, This provides a close match to anechoic flat or HF down around 8dB from LF peak and Mids down a little less. The HF then rises again by 5dB by 11KHz which offers some needed F-M compensation for average listening levels. If you adopt these values you help restore better phase relationships between drive units, especially bass to mid which I suspected was out when I saw some on-line measurements and confirmed on listening tests. Bass sounds cleaner and tauter now (Bass inductor DCR reduced from 0.4 to 0.25R and power handling before saturation increased). It is also lifted wrt mids and HF which makes the speakers sound more lively in the bass region now. At what cost? All of that won't be cheap? |
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Post by karma67 on Dec 23, 2020 14:20:35 GMT
to quote paul, This provides a close match to anechoic flat or HF down around 8dB from LF peak and Mids down a little less. The HF then rises again by 5dB by 11KHz which offers some needed F-M compensation for average listening levels. If you adopt these values you help restore better phase relationships between drive units, especially bass to mid which I suspected was out when I saw some on-line measurements and confirmed on listening tests. Bass sounds cleaner and tauter now (Bass inductor DCR reduced from 0.4 to 0.25R and power handling before saturation increased). It is also lifted wrt mids and HF which makes the speakers sound more lively in the bass region now. At what cost? All of that won't be cheap? about £20 for the resistors! gotta be worth a try as the cheapest/quickest last throw of the dice surely? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 14:24:30 GMT
At what cost? All of that won't be cheap? about £20 for the resistors! gotta be worth a try as the cheapest/quickest last throw of the dice surely? Just the Resistors? I read that he'd reduced the value of an inductor... Have I read that wrong |
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Post by karma67 on Dec 23, 2020 14:31:28 GMT
about £20 for the resistors! gotta be worth a try as the cheapest/quickest last throw of the dice surely? Just the Resistors? I read that he'd reduced the value of an inductor... Have I read that wrong i would also check all the caps that the previous owner put in just to make sure all is 'as standard' and not different values.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 14:47:05 GMT
Just the Resistors? I read that he'd reduced the value of an inductor... Have I read that wrong i would also check all the caps that the previous owner put in just to make sure all is 'as standard' and not different values.
The caps are original. Ah ok. I'll look at the Resistors. |
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Post by firebottle on Dec 23, 2020 17:08:06 GMT
Just the Resistors? I read that he'd reduced the value of an inductor... Have I read that wrong no he did change the inductor value .. No he changed the quality of the inductor, not the inductance value. Better Q factor = lower DC resistance. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 17:52:39 GMT
After much wonder service, I felt it was time to retire my soldering iron. Meet the new guy:  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2020 18:09:28 GMT
I was looking at a new iron the other day. A Haako FX888D.
Probably a bit more than I need for a bit of DIY.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 18:14:34 GMT
I was looking at a new iron the other day. A Haako FX888D. Probably a bit more than I need for a bit of DIY. Yeah, this probably is too but I had a £60 apology voucher after rapid lost my order months back. Forgot I'd got it. |
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Post by sq225917 on Dec 23, 2020 18:57:31 GMT
I'm still using a £40 Maplins job
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 23, 2020 19:09:56 GMT
I'm still using a £40 Maplins job The little screw collar holding the tip in is starting to not tighten up as tight. I felt it better to replace now than be held up later. It was £14 off eBay about 3 years ago. Pretty good going I'd say! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2020 20:08:25 GMT
I'm still using a £40 Maplins job Me too. The 50W adjustable temperature version. |
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Post by sq225917 on Dec 24, 2020 0:09:07 GMT
Mines a bit of a triggers broom, still using the original control unit, onto the third iron and umpteenth tip
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Post by antonio on Dec 24, 2020 0:42:24 GMT
"Not much between them measurement wise yet the price is quite an eye opener! My concern for the 410 is that the Ceramic tweeter may be a bit shouty. The Tweeter in the Heco Celan range is probably the best tweeter i have heard. Fine margins"
Why do you think a ceramic tweeter would be shouty, my experience would be quite the opposite Detailed, yes, but not shouty
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 24, 2020 7:16:48 GMT
"Not much between them measurement wise yet the price is quite an eye opener! My concern for the 410 is that the Ceramic tweeter may be a bit shouty. The Tweeter in the Heco Celan range is probably the best tweeter i have heard. Fine margins" Why do you think a ceramic tweeter would be shouty, my experience would be quite the opposite Detailed, yes, but not shouty Just my thought as that frequency peak in the HF may get a bit shouty. I wasn't particularly bothered about the ceramic per say. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Dec 24, 2020 7:20:26 GMT
Just the Resistors? I read that he'd reduced the value of an inductor... Have I read that wrong i would also check all the caps that the previous owner put in just to make sure all is 'as standard' and not different values.
BTW, what were the values? |
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Post by karma67 on Dec 24, 2020 7:43:44 GMT
Mids: 5.6 series/4.7R parallel
HF: 3.3R series/6R Parallel
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) Though going to back to Oli's comment about cost I did use custom made inductors, full V-caps (again specially made values for me) and Caddock thick metal films Resistors on custom heat-sinks from memory I believe it was around £1200 (then) to do the job properly I spent around 30 hours getting the result I was looking for both in build quality and sound performance.
