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Post by misterc on Jan 6, 2024 22:53:00 GMT
All I can say Oli is good luck with all of your efforts I know you have the will power to get it done
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 6, 2024 22:58:30 GMT
All I can say Oli is good luck with all of your efforts I know you have the will power to get it done Cheers T. Any opinions on the speaker choice I have highlighted? Heard any ellipticor? |
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Post by mikeyb on Jan 6, 2024 23:10:25 GMT
XO topology wise, I believe both are 2.5way. Oh oh...Macca isn't gonna like that 😂 I’ll say it again… That’s what I thought too 😂😂😂 |
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 7, 2024 7:39:30 GMT
Oli >>A little while back Jason came here and measured the listening room for some indication (not EXACT) of what was going on in here. The upshot was a quite staggeringly high peak and trough in the response<<
I'm not at all surprised.
When I visited 25% of the music played sounded extraordinarily good.
The other 75% tbh was a train wreck.
On some loud rock (Dream Theater) there was a loud continuous bass note that defo isn't in the recording. And the whole thing was a mess anyway.
Going straight to Alan's place afterwards, with humbler Arke speakers, that same track just sounded so much better. Really good, actually.
So, yes, some very serious room / speaker interactions to sort out imo.
But I'm sure it's doable.
I've twice visited a guy with big ATCs in a room of similar size to Oli's, he had a ~2 foot thick solid wall of acoustic treatment slabs behind the speakers. It sounded good with no room nasties that I noticed.
So, yes, I'm sure it's doable with perseverance and science!
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Post by macca on Jan 7, 2024 8:11:47 GMT
. I believe it all comes down to how you define 2.5 and 3 way. Ok....I don't know if any 3way is better than every 2.5way? I suspect not? Sorry for confusing the issue, it was late when I was looking at the TG website - and his wall of text isn't easy to read so I was looking at the xover schematics and then my head was hurting. Seems like they are both the same but with different drivers as you correctly stated. I.E both 2 and a half way. You are also right to say that not every 3 way is better than a 2 way or 2.5 way. I have some very good Audiovector 2.5 way speakers here, they are better than some 3 way I have owned (Celestion Ditton 44 for example). But as a general rule a 3 way is better - why? Intermodulation distortion. You want your midrange driver to be just doing midrange, not bass and midrange. All cone and dome 2 way and 2.5 way are inherently compromised by this. IMD always sounds bad. What you want is a 3 way with active bass - I'm sure there must be something suitable on the TG site? |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2024 8:13:16 GMT
Ok....I don't know if any 3way is better than every 2.5way? I suspect not? Sorry for confusing the issue, it was late when I was looking at the TG website - and his wall of text isn't easy to read so I was looking at the xover schematics and then my head was hurting. Seems like they are both the same but with different drivers as you correctly stated. I.E both 2 and a half way. You are also right to say that not every 3 way is better than a 2 way or 2.5 way. I have some very good Audiovector 2.5 way speakers here, they are better than some 3 way I have owned (Celestion Ditton 44 for example). But as a general rule a 3 way is better - why? Intermodulation distortion. You want your midrange driver to be just doing midrange, not bass and midrange. All cone and dome 2 way and 2.5 way are inherently compromised by this. IMD always sounds bad. What you want is a 3 way with active bass - I'm sure there must be something suitable on the TG site? If you can find something with the right dimensions, I'd be more than happy to have a look! |
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 7, 2024 8:18:14 GMT
I think a small 2 way with subwoofer(s) is worth looking at.
It could be very useful to have independently located bass drivers to help sort the room issues as well
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2024 8:24:57 GMT
I think a small 2 way with subwoofer(s) is worth looking at. It could be very useful to have independently located bass drivers to help sort the room issues as well No, tried that. It didn't work...well, it worked to a degree, but not well enough. I am going with one of the two aforementioned options as there is no viable three way option in the Troels range. They are all too big. |
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Post by macca on Jan 7, 2024 8:33:23 GMT
I think a small 2 way with subwoofer(s) is worth looking at. It could be very useful to have independently located bass drivers to help sort the room issues as well No, tried that. It didn't work...well, it worked to a degree, but not well enough. I am going with one of the two aforementioned options as there is no viable three way option in the Troels range. They are all too big. did you try it with a high pass filter so the 2 way speaker was only receiving the mid and top and some DSP on the sub? This is essential to get a sub/sat system working properly. I don't think you did. Going with a 2 and a half way is just exactly the same thing with the same compromise. Don't worry about size of the cabs that's really got no bearing on what will give good results. Personally I would have kept what you had and tried to solve the issue with parametric EQ - Not saying that would have worked and it would mean doing A to D on your turntable (really you would not notice it but I know you have that whole purist thing about it  ) Let me see if I can find something suitable. Don't make any quick decisions you will only end up dissatisfied and changing again. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2024 8:37:41 GMT
Feel free to make suggestions 👍
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Post by macca on Jan 7, 2024 9:45:04 GMT
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2024 10:28:09 GMT
That buys half of one of the ellipticor mid drivers. I am informed by another party that the speakers I've linked to are 3 way |
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Post by macca on Jan 7, 2024 10:35:41 GMT
That buys half of one of the ellipticor mid drivers. I am informed by another party that the speakers I've linked to are 3 way I wouldn't get too hung up on the cost of drive units. At the end of the day they all move air around and any small benefits are easily swamped by much bigger issues. What you need is a solution to your particular room issue - that doesn't necessarily need a ton of money chucked at it. Just the right horse for the course. You're saying the TG you linked to are 3 way? Okay let me have a look. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2024 10:37:09 GMT
That buys half of one of the ellipticor mid drivers. I am informed by another party that the speakers I've linked to are 3 way I wouldn't get too hung up on the cost of drive units. At the end of the day they all move air around and any small benefits are easily swamped by much bigger issues. What you need is a solution to your particular room issue - that doesn't necessarily need a ton of money chucked at it. Just the right horse for the course. You're saying the TG you linked to are 3 way? Okay let me have a look. I'm not saying that, I'm saying I have been told they are both technically 3 way, depending on what you define 2.5 or 3 way 😂😂 |
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Post by macca on Jan 7, 2024 10:54:15 GMT
Does seem to have a high pass on the midrange going by the schematic.
Odd since he says in the text
why should you build a speaker like this? Well, first of all it isn't big. Everything is relative, but it's not large like the Ellipticor-3 or the SEAS CNO-4, speakers similar in design, but building on 2½-way philosophy. The ScanSpeak 7" Ellipticor driver has a phenomenal power handling and can be pushed extremely hard before distortion sets in.
So, you need a modest sized speaker, that all the same can produce a significant soundstage and create some potent bass. You want the benefits of a basically 2-way system in terms of simple crossover with no high-pass filter to the midrange.
All a bit confusing.
I see he uses an EAR amplifier - oh dear!
Don't agree with him about a few things - fancy capacitors and internal wiring does not do anything, there's no sonic advantage to a simple crossover, usually the opposite is true.
Proof is in the pudding though I suppose. In general he does know his stuff.
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Post by macca on Jan 7, 2024 10:59:44 GMT
I wouldn't get too hung up on the cost of drive units. At the end of the day they all move air around and any small benefits are easily swamped by much bigger issues. What you need is a solution to your particular room issue - that doesn't necessarily need a ton of money chucked at it. Just the right horse for the course. You're saying the TG you linked to are 3 way? Okay let me have a look. I'm not saying that, I'm saying I have been told they are both technically 3 way, depending on what you define 2.5 or 3 way 😂😂 There's no dispute about the difference two and a half way you run one mid bass all the way up to where it crosses to the tweeter, you run the second mid bass up to, say, 250Hz, then roll it off - so it only does bass. The compromise is you still have one driver trying to do the whole FR from 20Hz to 1.5 KHz (or wherever your tweeter kicks in). |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2024 11:33:01 GMT
Well, I have been locked in investigative conversations and into the merits of both type of speaker all morning, and I have decided to go for the Ellipticor.
Eventually it came down to knowing that if I went SEAS, in 6 months I'll be sat there thinking "WHAT IF"
I don't want that, so Ellipticor it is.
Now...we wait.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2024 11:33:43 GMT
I'm not saying that, I'm saying I have been told they are both technically 3 way, depending on what you define 2.5 or 3 way 😂😂 There's no dispute about the difference two and a half way you run one mid bass all the way up to where it crosses to the tweeter, you run the second mid bass up to, say, 250Hz, then roll it off - so it only does bass. The compromise is you still have one driver trying to do the whole FR from 20Hz to 1.5 KHz (or wherever your tweeter kicks in). Agreed. This is how it was explained to me. |
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Post by macca on Jan 7, 2024 11:41:00 GMT
what are you using for speakers in the meantime?
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Post by Arke on Jan 7, 2024 11:41:51 GMT
I'm not saying that, I'm saying I have been told they are both technically 3 way, depending on what you define 2.5 or 3 way 😂😂 There's no dispute about the difference two and a half way you run one mid bass all the way up to where it crosses to the tweeter, you run the second mid bass up to, say, 250Hz, then roll it off - so it only does bass. The compromise is you still have one driver trying to do the whole FR from 20Hz to 1.5 KHz (or wherever your tweeter kicks in). Emailed Troels: "Technically is more like a 2½-way, but in the end a matter of definition, but not a 3-way as the mid would need a high-pass filter." This is for both options. Also, Troels defines as "3 driver speakers" |
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Post by macca on Jan 7, 2024 11:56:38 GMT
There's no dispute about the difference two and a half way you run one mid bass all the way up to where it crosses to the tweeter, you run the second mid bass up to, say, 250Hz, then roll it off - so it only does bass. The compromise is you still have one driver trying to do the whole FR from 20Hz to 1.5 KHz (or wherever your tweeter kicks in). Emailed Troels: "Technically is more like a 2½-way, but in the end a matter of definition, but not a 3-way as the mid would need a high-pass filter." This is for both options. Also, Troels defines as "3 driver speakers" Okay, clarified then. Why does he just not make it a three way? This is what I mean by him thinking simpler crossover is better, but not if the compromise that creates is potentially worse! Oh well, I am sure they will still be very good. The 2.5 way Audiovectors I have here are very close to the 3 way Focals (at about a fifth retail!). One visitor actually preferred the Audiovectors after a whole day of swapping back and forth. For me they just don't have that wide open midrange of the Focal. |
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Post by misterc on Jan 7, 2024 11:57:59 GMT
I would suggest in the short term a full time spent RTA sweep get the exact peaks & troughs FIRST before deciding on ANY coarse of action.
If you are definately moving in the not to distant furture just purchase a basic DSP unit or parametric equalizer to iron out the room's issues and live with it.
SAVE your funds for when you do move then you will be in a position to just accquire what you are REALLY looking to achieve straight away imho.
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Post by misterc on Jan 7, 2024 12:10:26 GMT
I totally understand you wish to really obtain the best you can acheive, although sometimes we have to take a different path for a while before we can get back on that particular horse Oli, I've not had one of my own amps for about two months now and it's getting a wee bit frustrating even though though the stand in is £60K its just not the same. I do get it honest!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2024 12:26:31 GMT
what are you using for speakers in the meantime? Maggie's by the looks of it 😂 |
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Post by bencat on Jan 7, 2024 12:45:38 GMT
Oli I know you are working towards a full solution but can I make an offer . I have a spare MiniDSP DDRC 22D which is a digital unit that will add a Dirac Live filter to your digital stream . Direct is very adjustable and can give you a tool to try and find some solutions . It is also very easy to use . If you would like to borrow it for an extended loan you are very welcome . I would not expect it to stay as part of your system but it may prove useful for deciding where you want to end up let me know if you are interested .
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Post by macca on Jan 7, 2024 13:20:43 GMT
what are you using for speakers in the meantime? Maggie's by the looks of it 😂 oh well could be worse I suppose at least it's not Audionotes.  You should totally take up the kind offer of the loan of a DSP unit |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jan 7, 2024 13:22:49 GMT
macca "Why does he just not make it a three way?" He just offers a range of options like a manufacturer.... 2 way, 2.5 way, 3 way, 2 way plus active bass, 2.5way plus active bass, 4 way, 5 way etc. Take your pick. Plenty of three ways if that floats your boat. Edit: Oli would probably choose 3 way Ellipticor plus active bass if they were in budget
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Post by macca on Jan 7, 2024 13:39:07 GMT
macca "Why does he just not make it a three way?" He just offers a range of options like a manufacturer.... 2 way, 2.5 way, 3 way, 2 way plus active bass, 2.5way plus active bass, 4 way, 5 way etc. Take your pick. Plenty of three ways if that floats your boat. Edit: Oli would probably choose 3 way Ellipticor plus active bass if they were in budget Sure I know, I just have a thing about 2 and a half ways and don't understand why anyone offers them. Well I do obviously it's a way of getting higher SPL than a 2-way and it's cheaper and easier than a 3-way. Anyway alea ejacta est so it's all moot now. |
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Jan 7, 2024 13:54:26 GMT
Dunno if 2.5 way vs 3 way is always black and white. I can turn off my 12" bass and then have a 2.5 way speaker. I have compared it to Ektas (3 way) or Rev 851s (3 way) , both with similar quality drivers. In this case I prefer the 2.5way (as have others). There is never a one size fits all solution.
Simpler XOs with fewer components can have a positive effective too. Having two drivers doing bass can help (vs one driver doing bass on 3 way). I accept there are drawbacks to 2.5way too. Pro and cons to most engineering approaches to most problems.
Do you prefer 4 way and 5 way to 3 way for similar reasons?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 7, 2024 14:03:26 GMT
macca "Why does he just not make it a three way?" He just offers a range of options like a manufacturer.... 2 way, 2.5 way, 3 way, 2 way plus active bass, 2.5way plus active bass, 4 way, 5 way etc. Take your pick. Plenty of three ways if that floats your boat. Edit: Oli would probably choose 3 way Ellipticor plus active bass if they were in budget It's size I'm concerned with. I just don't believe it will work with a bigger speaker. If anyone can tell me different, I will happily consider that option. Troels range only |
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