Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 14, 2020 17:12:39 GMT
All the ones you don't like seem to be 'dark' sounding or have too much bass, which worries me as it possibly seems to be a trend. I know the Dino a bit and liked it with some cartridges although price on some of these things can be outrageous when you cost out what's inside. HF extension doesn't have to be sacrificed for LF impact or extension and that is where the truth lies with these phonostages. A lot of phonostages have rolled off HF to give the impression of a "sweet" of "full" midrange. They also deliberately create a LF shelf to suggest better bass response and retrieval. There are very few phonostages that are truly reference level because they are deliberately tuned to sound a specific way. Only 3, maybe 4 on that list are what i'd call "designed to be transparent" Also, do try to remember that this is only a very brief overview of a much more detailed experience! |
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Post by macca on Jan 14, 2020 18:01:45 GMT
I quite liked the Dino. Too expensive for what it is but I did rate it. I didn't think the AQVox lacked bass. That one is not far off the Paradise in quality and presentation I think.
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Post by macca on Jan 14, 2020 18:02:45 GMT
It may have lacked the 'sludge passing for bass' that some of the valve stages have.
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Post by dsjr on Jan 14, 2020 18:28:24 GMT
The separate Croft phono stages should be extremely accurate as regards RIAA. I reckon they may still be a little sensitive to their loading downstream from the preamp but can't confirm this. Used with a well sorted Decca into a preamp they're happy with and they should be superb.
Which Kontrapunkt do you have? We had a couple of the blue trimmed ones in and I found them too 'analogue' and overly thick textured for my tastes - i was a Dynavector 17D2 fan back then. The black trimmed one (Alpha?) was excellent as I remember, but it was along time ago.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 14, 2020 18:44:15 GMT
I quite liked the Dino. Too expensive for what it is but I did rate it. I didn't think the AQVox lacked bass. That one is not far off the Paradise in quality and presentation I think. Again, it's a brief overview of a more detailed listen. I'm not quite saying it lacked bass , but it was fleet of foot, a bit less earth mover than ballet dancer. It wasn't a criticism as such, just that it isn't a bass monster. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 14, 2020 18:49:26 GMT
The separate Croft phono stages should be extremely accurate as regards RIAA. I reckon they may still be a little sensitive to their loading downstream from the preamp but can't confirm this. Used with a well sorted Decca into a preamp they're happy with and they should be superb. Which Kontrapunkt do you have? We had a couple of the blue trimmed ones in and I found them too 'analogue' and overly thick textured for my tastes - i was a Dynavector 17D2 fan back then. The black trimmed one (Alpha?) was excellent as I remember, but it was along time ago. Oh Dave. Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave...... The Croft is a great listen, but again, the ones we've seen here are not entirely accurate in the RIAA. HF roll off resembling a ski slope. Some less so than others admittedly, but still leave a lot to be desired compared to the Bigbottle, or even Avalon which is so accurate, it's practically the Robin Hood of Phonostages. As for the Kontrapunkt, I have the "b" with blue trim, and no, it's not in the slightest term "analogue" sounding in this system. And has been my cartridge of choice for over 12 months now. And as for Deccas, it makes sense for them to be used with certain phonostages as the rolled off HF is exactly what they need. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 19:05:51 GMT
The separate Croft phono stages should be extremely accurate as regards RIAA. I reckon they may still be a little sensitive to their loading downstream from the preamp but can't confirm this. Used with a well sorted Decca into a preamp they're happy with and they should be superb. Which Kontrapunkt do you have? We had a couple of the blue trimmed ones in and I found them too 'analogue' and overly thick textured for my tastes - i was a Dynavector 17D2 fan back then. The black trimmed one (Alpha?) was excellent as I remember, but it was along time ago. Oh Dave. Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave...... The Croft is a great listen, but again, the ones we've seen here are not entirely accurate in the RIAA. HF roll off resembling a ski slope. Some less so than others admittedly, but still leave a lot to be desired compared to the Bigbottle, or even Avalon which is so accurate, it's practically the Robin Hood of Phonostages. As for the Kontrapunkt, I have the "b" with blue trim, and no, it's not in the slightest term "analogue" sounding in this system. And has been my cartridge of choice for over 12 months now. And as for Deccas, it makes sense for them to be used with certain phonostages as the rolled off HF is exactly what they need. Don't know what Deccas you've been listening to, but "rolled off' they ain't. If anything they have a slightly rising response to past 20kHz. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 14, 2020 19:34:10 GMT
Oh Dave. Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave...... The Croft is a great listen, but again, the ones we've seen here are not entirely accurate in the RIAA. HF roll off resembling a ski slope. Some less so than others admittedly, but still leave a lot to be desired compared to the Bigbottle, or even Avalon which is so accurate, it's practically the Robin Hood of Phonostages. As for the Kontrapunkt, I have the "b" with blue trim, and no, it's not in the slightest term "analogue" sounding in this system. And has been my cartridge of choice for over 12 months now. And as for Deccas, it makes sense for them to be used with certain phonostages as the rolled off HF is exactly what they need. Don't know what Deccas you've been listening to, but "rolled off' they ain't. If anything they have a slightly rising response to past 20kHz. No, they suit phonostages that are rolled off. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 19:48:01 GMT
Ah. We were talking at crossed purposes. (All your fault though  ) |
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Post by dsjr on Jan 14, 2020 19:51:11 GMT
The separate Croft phono stages should be extremely accurate as regards RIAA. I reckon they may still be a little sensitive to their loading downstream from the preamp but can't confirm this. Used with a well sorted Decca into a preamp they're happy with and they should be superb. Which Kontrapunkt do you have? We had a couple of the blue trimmed ones in and I found them too 'analogue' and overly thick textured for my tastes - i was a Dynavector 17D2 fan back then. The black trimmed one (Alpha?) was excellent as I remember, but it was along time ago. Oh Dave. Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave...... The Croft is a great listen, but again, the ones we've seen here are not entirely accurate in the RIAA. HF roll off resembling a ski slope. Some less so than others admittedly, but still leave a lot to be desired compared to the Bigbottle, or even Avalon which is so accurate, it's practically the Robin Hood of Phonostages. As for the Kontrapunkt, I have the "b" with blue trim, and no, it's not in the slightest term "analogue" sounding in this system. And has been my cartridge of choice for over 12 months now. And as for Deccas, it makes sense for them to be used with certain phonostages as the rolled off HF is exactly what they need. I have to disagree. My own Decca is pretty well flat to beyond 20khz, but it's not strictly a standard one (it's an original Gold Garrott Microscanner) and the Golds were always better than the slightly wild lower models - you need to live with some ('podded' and not to understand the differences) and experience the pleasure and pain to understand just how bloody good these are when compared with master grade material.
The Kontrapunkt experiences were over several turntables and samples brought in to us and I only comment as you claim so many phono stages in your list were dark and thick sounding which maybe others haven't noticed?.
Old Crofts measured dead flat with a uhf rise if anything, the soft sounds more in the output buffer. Under loading old ones causes bass loss rather than an HF one (first hand experience) and Glenn took great pains to sort this for the M25 and related phono stages. Loading of test gear needs to be done carefully and this would rarely be replicated in a domestic situation with matching gear of higher input impedance. My Croft preamp (early version of what's now the 25R) phono stage lost bass into a solid state amp or tape deck and I couldn't use it as a phono stage taping output from the tape out sockets.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 14, 2020 20:45:36 GMT
Oh Dave. Dave Dave Dave Dave Dave...... The Croft is a great listen, but again, the ones we've seen here are not entirely accurate in the RIAA. HF roll off resembling a ski slope. Some less so than others admittedly, but still leave a lot to be desired compared to the Bigbottle, or even Avalon which is so accurate, it's practically the Robin Hood of Phonostages. As for the Kontrapunkt, I have the "b" with blue trim, and no, it's not in the slightest term "analogue" sounding in this system. And has been my cartridge of choice for over 12 months now. And as for Deccas, it makes sense for them to be used with certain phonostages as the rolled off HF is exactly what they need. I have to disagree. My own Decca is pretty well flat to beyond 20khz, but it's not strictly a standard one (it's an original Gold Garrott Microscanner) and the Golds were always better than the slightly wild lower models - you need to live with some ('podded' and not to understand the differences) and experience the pleasure and pain to understand just how bloody good these are when compared with master grade material.
The Kontrapunkt experiences were over several turntables and samples brought in to us and I only comment as you claim so many phono stages in your list were dark and thick sounding which maybe others haven't noticed?.
Old Crofts measured dead flat with a uhf rise if anything, the soft sounds more in the output buffer. Under loading old ones causes bass loss rather than an HF one (first hand experience) and Glenn took great pains to sort this for the M25 and related phono stages. Loading of test gear needs to be done carefully and this would rarely be replicated in a domestic situation with matching gear of higher input impedance. My Croft preamp (early version of what's now the 25R) phono stage lost bass into a solid state amp or tape deck and I couldn't use it as a phono stage taping output from the tape out sockets.
The Kontrapunkt wasn't in play for all of those auditions, or I'd accept your point happily. We used... Kontrapunkt b, Ortofon Vienna AT33PTGII, ATART7, Lyra Clavis plus a couple more. Also, you have to remember, we measure everything that passes through our houses. My comments on RIAA accuracy are not borne from only listening. I don't really mind whether anyone agrees with my impressions, after all, most people don't listen for what I listen for. There are very few phonostages that are designed to be accurate, as accurate rarely sells. "Exciting bass", "fizzing treble" and "glorious midrange" is what sells, so they do what's necessary. I don't blame them, but I find it infuriating when people tell me "this and that" are flat. They usually aren't, especially in my experience. I have had 3 different Croft phonostages in my system, internal preamp ones, and none of them measure flat, or sound it for that matter. That's not to say they sound bad, they certainly don't. But I don't need that, I don't want that either and have avoided it like the plague, so when something deviates from what is accurate, its obvious to me. Alan and I measure it, and confirm I am right, everytime, and then I sell it on. I also don't need to keep qualifying what I know is factually true. If I say a certain phonostage isnt accurate, you can bet your cock and balls we measured it, because if we hadn't, I'd not comment. Remember when I got lambasted for my comments on a certain phonostage? Told I was wrong, lying, talking Sh#t and then the truth came out and I was spot on??? Believe me, Dave. I don't make this Sh#t up |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 14, 2020 21:21:43 GMT
Ah. We were talking at crossed purposes. (All your fault though ) Oh, absolutely!! |
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Post by electronumpty on Jan 14, 2020 22:41:39 GMT
wow that's a pretty comprehensive list. Surprised there is no Graham Slee offering on it. I've only heard 1 of those  there, my OTP 1 which is great. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 14, 2020 22:46:26 GMT
wow that's a pretty comprehensive list. Surprised there is no Graham Slee offering on it. I've only heard 1 of those there, my OTP 1 which is great. Yes, and there will be a paradise added soon lol I never had the chance to hear anything from Graham Slee, which is a shame as I'd like to. |
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Post by electronumpty on Jan 14, 2020 22:57:13 GMT
wow that's a pretty comprehensive list. Surprised there is no Graham Slee offering on it. I've only heard 1 of those there, my OTP 1 which is great. Yes, and there will be a paradise added soon lol I never had the chance to hear anything from Graham Slee, which is a shame as I'd like to. When you get the PCBs if you want true dual mono ask for an extra pre-regulator board like I did. Costs about 10 dollars more. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 14, 2020 23:09:10 GMT
Yes, and there will be a paradise added soon lol I never had the chance to hear anything from Graham Slee, which is a shame as I'd like to. When you get the PCBs if you want true dual mono ask for an extra pre-regulator board like I did. Costs about 10 dollars more. Ah, yes, that's not a bad shout. |
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Post by electronumpty on Jan 14, 2020 23:25:10 GMT
Well tbf it was Sylvain's suggestion to me, like I'd know any different! Numpty by name numpty by nat... lol |
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Post by dsjr on Jan 15, 2020 13:26:34 GMT
Would be nice for the measurements, especially RIAA deviances of the tested phono stages, to be published though, as anything more than half a db would be clearly audible I think. The Croft stages used to be excellent if loaded right (I'll email you a scan of the original Micro), but maybe the changes made in recent times, supposedly to make them more immune to loading, have effed them (I don't think they 'sound' effed though, but that's personal opinion obviously). I mean, a lot of my vinyl listening is through a Linn LK1 as a phono stage (run from tape outs) and that is severely band limited (almost worse than Quad of all things) but concentrates attention on the midrange, which is quite ok imo, so there ya go...  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2020 13:35:09 GMT
Measurements are for Monkeys....🙈🙊🙉
They mean jack Sh#t in the real world.
And Olives flawed findings on phono stages just go to prove that.
He disses 4 Phono's that I find superb and 1 that is in a class of one.
But hey.......that's obvious.......Right!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2020 13:36:15 GMT
EACH TO THEIR OWN.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 15, 2020 13:52:08 GMT
Measurements are for Monkeys....🙈🙊🙉 They mean jack Sh#t in the real world. And Olives flawed findings on phono stages just go to prove that. He disses 4 Phono's that I find superb and 1 that is in a class of one. But hey.......that's obvious.......Right!!!! They aren't flawed. They are what I heard, and what we proved to be, via measurements. Just coz you think they mean nothing, doesn't make it so. However it does demonstrate to me that you have no idea wtf I'm listening for or trying to get from my system. You keep enjoy listening to your flavoured HiFi and I'll keep seeking out the purest version on a budget. Now wind your neck in, or you'll be out....again, Jammy. For good this time. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2020 13:56:31 GMT
Okay....Fair enough, I've no choice really.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 15, 2020 14:00:45 GMT
Would be nice for the measurements, especially RIAA deviances of the tested phono stages, to be published though, as anything more than half a db would be clearly audible I think. The Croft stages used to be excellent if loaded right (I'll email you a scan of the original Micro), but maybe the changes made in recent times, supposedly to make them more immune to loading, have effed them (I don't think they 'sound' effed though, but that's personal opinion obviously). I mean, a lot of my vinyl listening is through a Linn LK1 as a phono stage (run from tape outs) and that is severely band limited (almost worse than Quad of all things) but concentrates attention on the midrange, which is quite ok imo, so there ya go... Dave, Yes, I could quite easily have published a photo of the measurements Alan and did, but at the time, Alan and I were collaborating on Phonostages, as we are now, and it would only have been seen as an attempt to discredit or slate Phonostages. Richard Dunn called me a liar, deliberately trying to badmouth his products etc, yet as you know, Alan's mod improved the unit. You know this to be a fact. There was no value in trying to be the ASR of phonostages. It just caused a lot of upset. Recently, I had the SIMaudio here, I didn't get a chance to measure it with Alan and so I have made no comment on the subject. I know measurements don't tell the whole story but they do tell you the accuracy of FR. Now if FR measurements are for monkeys, point me to the nearest fucking jungle lol |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 15, 2020 14:04:45 GMT
Okay....Fair enough, I've no choice really. H, You don't rate measurements, and you disagree with my opinion. I have no problem with that but you aren't respecting my choices or decisions on what I buy. I respect your decision to buy a replica valve Amplifier, use a Goldring 1042 and use BBC speakers, that I wouldn't personally use in the garage. That's where this is important. Disagree, that's OK but respect the fact your opinion isnt gospel, just as mine isnt. I would love to get you down here for a listen to what I have here. Not to change your mind or influence you, but to demonstrate there are other possibilities when listening to music. Just try to remember, we are both after the same thing, just going about it in different ways. Musical enjoyment is paramount, and if we both have that, neitherbof us can be wrong!! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2020 14:36:36 GMT
C'mon though Bigman, some superb gear mentioned but you mark em all down as a bit Sh#t...!!!!
Whilst suprise suprise these are great.
Firebottle Vivant - Excellent transparency, lots of Air and space. Still a fave of mine.
Bigbottle - Same designer, same 'feel' but with more weight and a more dynamic delivery. I'm bias though lol
Bigbottle MK2 - Current version. This phonostage has trumped everything else on this list.
Firebottle OTP1, 2 & 3 - Budget Phonostages that sound like they should cost more. The '3' Is the best, and is easily a bargain.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2020 14:48:21 GMT
Now you wouldn't by any chance have a vested interest along with Alan in any of the above ?
👍😉👍
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 15, 2020 14:52:50 GMT
C'mon though Bigman, some superb gear mentioned but you mark em all down as a bit Sh#t...!!!! Whilst suprise suprise these are great. Firebottle Vivant - Excellent transparency, lots of Air and space. Still a fave of mine. Bigbottle - Same designer, same 'feel' but with more weight and a more dynamic delivery. I'm bias though lol Bigbottle MK2 - Current version. This phonostage has trumped everything else on this list. Firebottle OTP1, 2 & 3 - Budget Phonostages that sound like they should cost more. The '3' Is the best, and is easily a bargain. Haha, Ok, what have I marked down that you disagree with? As for the ones you mention, of course I thought they were great, they do exactly what I want them to! Regardless of what they are. You didn't mention my rave review of the MFA Phonostage, of which I am a huge fan. Nor the LDA Jfet, of which my Bigbottle was inspired by. Or any of the others I liked. The Jolida, which was awesome once modded slightly and could have got better. Your ire seems to be directed at a perceived bias. Which is exactly what I said to Dave. No point me having an opinion in public because people wont see it for what it is and will suggest bias. I am at least proved right there. It's a bit like saying, "I made myself this cake with full fat milk, but i wont eat it because I'm lactose intolerant" You wouldn't, you'd make a cake you could eat and that doesn't mean one cake is better than another, it means you make the cake you enjoy! lol. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 15, 2020 14:58:18 GMT
Now you wouldn't by any chance have a vested interest along with Alan in any of the above ? 👍😉👍 I don't have a vested interest, certainly not in terms of any personal gain from liking Alans work. I also laud Phonomacs stuff, yet I pay for everything I have off him. For instance I'm just about to pay for his Avalon Phonostage parts, which I'll assemble myself. I pay for what I have. I also laud the work of Nick Gorham, Arek at Khozmo and Tom Christiensen of Neurochrome. Yet because they don't live in my area, and I don't know them personally, this never happens with them. Isnt it more logical for me to be on the take from one of those guys?? Also, who in HiFi, especially this end of it, is gonna "bribe" or Solicit positive opinions off a nobody forum member? I have no influence, no followers on Instagram no patreon account. I'm just a bloke who says what he likes about the gear he hears. Also, one more point.... I use my system everyday. I use the equipment i talk about and have bought or built. I don't have a secret phonostage that i put away when anyone visits and drag out a Bigbottle for show lol. If i was full of Sh#t and talking from a vested interest POV, why would i handcuff myself to a sub-par piece of kit? I could have purchased and kept ANY of the phonostages on that list, and others i have never tried. Except for probably the best one on there, the MFA phonostage. I sold pieces of kit that Alan made in favour of other gear and eventually Alan replaced his own design amplifier with a Neurochrome amplifier. We are looking for the best kit, even if that meant Alan had to relegate his own amplifier to reserve. That's what i like about him, it's about what's best, not whats profitable. I sold my Bigbottle phonostage on 2 occasions and have built 3 more to replace them, because i couldn't find anything that did what they do. Think i am lying? ask the folks who now own them (and more importantly STILL own them) what they think of it. Maybazza will happily divulge the results of it's comparison to a Tron Severn Signature (£4k-ish) and Mikeyb will likely tell you of the comparison between the Trilogy 907 and his Bigbottle he did, after which his Trilogy (£2k+) was sold. I am building a Paradise phonostage and an Avalon to try and BEAT my own Bigbottle phonostage!! I am mad according to people i talk to, for trying to outdo my own phonostage (that i sell lol) with that of another designer. Great business model isnt it lol BUT thats what i do. I try and find the best pieces i can and i talk about what i hear on the journey. Is all of this the behaviour of someone with a vested interest?  No, it isn't and to be perfectly honest, that accusation carries even less weight than it did when Richard Dunn was peddling that bullshit 3-4years ago. You don't have to read this Blog, so if my opions are of little interest to you due to our vastly differnt ideas of good sound, do as the rules say, and dont read them. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 15, 2020 16:58:14 GMT
For the last week or so, i have had Guns N' Roses UYI 1 & 2 in the digital collection. These are the MFSL versions.
I hadn't rushed to listen but now i have and OMG, they are stunning!!!
I love GNR and these albums hadn't always sounded great, but my word, i dont what they do at MFSL but they have nailed these two.
If you can find them, i recommend a listen.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2020 17:14:22 GMT
Now this ain't meant to piss you off ....heavens forbid your a grumpy enough cove as it is.
But I have (only yesterday) acquired a mint 1st edition of said album...yes the rare banned one with the rape victim (panties at ankles) cover and this is the one to get....
I have many copies of this on vinyl SE, Remasters, etc etc
But the original sounds best......imho.
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there, my OTP 1 which is great. 
