|
|
Post by savvypaul on Feb 9, 2019 14:22:54 GMT
I 'm not highlighting the bad grammar. I'm highlighting the process that led to it. Obviously.
I'd have (a bit) more time for the seller if they said something like:
We're not exactly sure why it works.
We've heard some theories, and come up with a few of our own, but we can't demonstrate it.
We can't find anything to measure, or we can't find a way to measure it.
Nonetheless, it seems to work, a lot of the time, so we thought we'd sell 'em.
I've got an open mind about 'it could have an effect' but an increasingly closed mind to the way it is being done - marketing baloney and crazy prices.
£2.4k for a magic box and £600 per cable to attach to it? Someone needs to give their head a shake.
If someone comes up with something more down to earth (pun intended), I'll have a listen to it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 14:26:49 GMT
Ok,
I'm told now by three people whom I trust that the Coherent RTZ box's effect is very obvious when In the system.
I don't know how I feel about that. I want it to be bullshit but the more I read, the more I see why it could work.
I won't spend on it but this is what makes hifi interesting imo.
|
|
|
|
Post by savvypaul on Feb 9, 2019 14:35:19 GMT
Ok, I'm told now by three people whom I trust that the Coherent RTZ box's effect is very obvious when In the system. I don't know how I feel about that. I want it to be bullshit but the more I read, the more I see why it could work. I won't spend on it but this is what makes hifi interesting imo. Definitely interesting. But I wouldn't pay multiple thousands of pounds for a box of 'secret ingredients' and a few cables if it were the best thing in the world, ever. If something comes along at a sensible price - a couple of hundred quid - I'll have a listen to it. |
|
|
|
Post by savvypaul on Feb 9, 2019 14:56:24 GMT
PS.
Same for £130 'quantum tunnel' fuses
Same for £250 for 4 'pasta' feet
Same for £5k 'statement' mains cables
Same for tiny little wooden disks that cost hundreds of pounds each
etc etc etc
I will keep a closed mind to the marketing bullshit and the 'rip your arse out' pricing...because I'm not paranoid about chasing the next miracle at the cost of my own self respect.
Others are free to follow their own course.
Rant done - my usual, gentle sarcasm will resume shortly...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 15:02:24 GMT
PS. Same for £130 'quantum tunnel' fuses Same for £250 for 4 'pasta' feet Same for £5k 'statement' mains cables Same for tiny little wooden disks that cost hundreds of pounds each etc etc etc I will keep a closed mind to the marketing bullshit and the 'rip your arse out' pricing...because I'm not paranoid about chasing the next miracle at the cost of my own self respect. Others are free to follow their own course. Rant done - my usual, gentle sarcasm will resume shortly... I completely agree mate. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Feb 9, 2019 15:14:36 GMT
Ok, I'm told now by three people whom I trust that the Coherent RTZ box's effect is very obvious when In the system. I agree. I can't see Alan going native so he must have been pretty impressed to have bought one. Even if it was a million quid I'd still have a listen to one if the opportunity comes up. But I have limits to what I'm prepared to spend on devices to play music and the price exceeds that. I mean I've heard better speakers than mine but I'm not rushing out to spend £10K on them. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 15:16:14 GMT
Ok, I'm told now by three people whom I trust that the Coherent RTZ box's effect is very obvious when In the system. I agree. I can't see Alan going native so he must have been pretty impressed to have bought one. Even if it was a million quid I'd still have a listen to one if the opportunity comes up. But I have limits to what I'm prepared to spend on devices to play music and the price exceeds that. I mean I've heard better speakers than mine but I'm not rushing out to spend £10K on them. I'd be willing to entertain a cheaper one. There are multiple options. If it works here I'd be on the hunt for a DIY version |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
|
Post by Bigman80 on Feb 9, 2019 15:59:02 GMT
I’d be very open to accepting these things work. Massively inflated accessories often improve the sound. That’s how people get away with rip off prices.
I wouldn’t give a feck whether or not I undersood how/why they work.
I’d care no more about whether or not the makers really undstood why either.
I wouldn’t buy anything where there was scant evidence of price relating to manufacturing cost, especially where there are clues that it may cost orders of magnitude less than is being asked.
I’d never pay 3 figures or more for a passive device because I’m happy as I am. Better or not, I’m already enjoying my system. Improvements tend to simply become the norm after a while IME.
The BR pads I bought, cost me £10 each. They worked and for that price I was happy. I was just as happy selling them at a small profit. Although they clearly worked, I have adjusted back to the happiness I enjoyed before I had them.
I have had fun buying such things and I probably still will. I doubt I will ever make anyone rich in the process though, because I will always buy used bargains or try to find a DIY/ budget alternatve. Making some scheister rich when there are so many good causes out there would leave a real bad taste in my mouth.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 16:18:53 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 16:22:52 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by savvypaul on Feb 9, 2019 16:30:16 GMT
When I had a hum problem with a Chord DAC, I ran a wire with a phono plug from one of the spare sockets on my preamp to the earth pin of a mains plug, plugged into a spare socket. It fixed the hum.
When I got a new (Metrum) DAC the hum wasn't present so I did away with the 'cable' and gave it not a second thought. About half an hour ago, I put the cable back in...and I'm hearing a greater sense of ease and musical flow than before on tracks that I know intimately well.
A couple of quids worth...every cloud, as they say.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 16:33:13 GMT
When I had a hum problem with a Chord DAC, I ran a wire with a phono plug from one of the spare sockets on my preamp to the earth pin of a mains plug, plugged into a spare socket. It fixed the hum. When I got a new (Metrum) DAC the hum wasn't present so I did away with the 'cable' and gave it not a second thought. About half an hour ago, I put the cable back in...and I'm hearing a greater sense of ease and musical flow than before on tracks that I know intimately well. A couple of quids worth...every cloud, as they say. Well, Dave Brook offered up the same idea over on AT. I'll definitely give that a go. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 17:22:54 GMT
Well I've found a small wooden box and I have plenty of wire, so I must be ready to go, as nobody is admitting to using anything more than this.
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Feb 9, 2019 17:41:41 GMT
You need the unique blend of seven herbs and spices...I mean the laminate of exotic metals.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2019 20:53:32 GMT
I can't be doing with any more tweaks, whether cheap, expensive or even free. Both my systems sound great, I have more than enough music to listen to, and I no longer feel the need to throw time and/or money at non-existent problems.
Even if someone explained to me how these grounding boxes work, I'd never be able to understand the explanation sufficiently well to be able to judge whether it was sound or just bullshit.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 14:41:35 GMT
I'd be interested in hearing Jez's view on 'grounding boxes'.
There's so much bollox being talked about these in various places. And it really gets me that none of the makers will specifically say what the product does (if anything). All they seem to do is say "try one".
Also, why are the 'magic' contents such a secret? Are there really new substances out there that the makers of these boxes have managed to isolate? Surely such a breakthrough in science would be defined by research papers and heralded by the various scientific bodies?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 17:17:00 GMT
Yes, the Mystique is rather tiresome. I'd like some information.
|
|
|
|
Post by pauld on Feb 10, 2019 19:23:20 GMT
I'd be interested in hearing Jez's view on 'grounding boxes'. There's so much bollox being talked about these in various places. And it really gets me that none of the makers will specifically say what the product does (if anything). All they seem to do is say "try one". Also, why are the 'magic' contents such a secret? Are there really new substances out there that the makers of these boxes have managed to isolate? Surely such a breakthrough in science would be defined by research papers and heralded by the various scientific bodies? I am sorry but why does it matter?. If the purchaser can hear an audible difference and are happy to shell out however much for the product? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 19:39:27 GMT
I'd be interested in hearing Jez's view on 'grounding boxes'. There's so much bollox being talked about these in various places. And it really gets me that none of the makers will specifically say what the product does (if anything). All they seem to do is say "try one". Also, why are the 'magic' contents such a secret? Are there really new substances out there that the makers of these boxes have managed to isolate? Surely such a breakthrough in science would be defined by research papers and heralded by the various scientific bodies? . If the purchaser can hear an audible difference and are happy to shell out however much for the product? What, that I'd like Jez's opinion? It's almost as if you're suggesting I shouldn't! |
|
|
|
Post by pauld on Feb 10, 2019 19:44:28 GMT
I am sorry but why does it matter?. If the purchaser can hear an audible difference and are happy to shell out however much for the product? What, that I'd like Jez's opinion? It's almost as if you're suggesting I shouldn't! Whatever, that’s not what I meant and you know that full well! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 19:47:42 GMT
I am sorry but why does it matter?. If the purchaser can hear an audible difference and are happy to shell out however much for the product? What, that I'd like Jez's opinion? It's almost as if you're suggesting I shouldn't! It's rare to get a glimpse of the secret sauce and to be honest, if the development has cost a lot, it shouldn't be revealed unless the developer wants too. |
|
|
|
Post by pauld on Feb 10, 2019 19:50:37 GMT
What, that I'd like Jez's opinion? It's almost as if you're suggesting I shouldn't! It's rare to get a glimpse of the secret sauce and to be honest, if the development has cost a lot, it shouldn't be revealed unless the developer wants too. Exactly, why should they? Would they expect one of the top chefs to tell you exactly how they made a certain meal, of course not. This argument is irritating at best and ridiculous at worst. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 19:53:11 GMT
What, that I'd like Jez's opinion? It's almost as if you're suggesting I shouldn't! Whatever, that’s not what I meant and you know that full well!So you read my thoughts do you? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 19:53:34 GMT
It's rare to get a glimpse of the secret sauce and to be honest, if the development has cost a lot, it shouldn't be revealed unless the developer wants too. Exactly, why should they? Would they expect one of the top chefs to tell you exactly how they made a certain meal, of course not. This argument is irritating at best and ridiculous at worst. The only decision that needs to be made, informed by personal demonstration, is whether the potential purchase makes enough if an improvement to warrant the price. If that's a yes, then its vfm. Some folks put ground earth's outside and fig their garden up to do so. It's extreme but because it can be explained it's acceptable. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 20:05:28 GMT
Exactly, why should they? Would they expect one of the top chefs to tell you exactly how they made a certain meal, of course not. This argument is irritating at best and ridiculous at worst. The only decision that needs to be made, informed by personal demonstration, is whether the potential purchase makes enough if an improvement to warrant the price. If that's a yes, then its vfm. Some folks put ground earth's outside and fig their garden up to do so. It's extreme but because it can be explained it's acceptable. That's the thing. There are logical reasons for doing it. Not swallowing some mumbo jumbo about ethereal and unexplained alleged properties. In my book anything that's not explained should be questioned, otherwise we may as well be using witch doctors and believing in phantoms. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 20:07:37 GMT
The only decision that needs to be made, informed by personal demonstration, is whether the potential purchase makes enough if an improvement to warrant the price. If that's a yes, then its vfm. Some folks put ground earth's outside and fig their garden up to do so. It's extreme but because it can be explained it's acceptable. That's the thing. There are logical reasons for doing it. Not swallowing some mumbo jumbo about ethereal and unexplained alleged properties. In my book anything that's not explained should be questioned, otherwise we may as well be using witch doctors and believing in phantoms. An explanation of what it's doing, yes. How it's doing it, yes/maybe. What they use to do it, no. Thing is, I'm pretty sure if they explained the how, we'd probably all be able to replicate it. Hence the silence. |
|
|
|
Post by sq225917 on Feb 10, 2019 20:24:38 GMT
There's two ways to approach it if you have any scientific rigour. Measure the output with and without it circuit, or blind test it and see if you can identify it. If it measures 'better' as opposed to just an effects box or nothing at all, then that'll be a turn up for the books. If one can identify it blind then I'd certainly expect that to be easy to measure. And we can move onto what it does, followed by how.
If one can neither measure a difference or identify it beyond 50/50 luck, then the device is simply a wallet emptying machine. If people want to spend money on that then I'm happy for them to blow their wad on it. but up until this point it remains firmly at the starting gate with nothing but anecdotes to support it. and as they say- the plural of anecdote is not data....
I can see no rational method of function for these devices that can lead to a decrease in system noise, in fact the contrary seems obviously apparent when you look at the pointless mish mash of wires they add into the mix.
But who fucking knows, right?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 20:29:38 GMT
There's two ways to approach it if you have any scientific rigour. Measure the output with and without it circuit, or blind test it and see if you can identify it. If it measures 'better' as opposed to just an effects box or nothing at all, then that'll be a turn up for the books. If one can identify it blind then I'd certainly expect that to be easy to measure. And we can move onto what it does, followed by how. If one can neither measure a difference or identify it beyond 50/50 luck, then the device is simply a wallet emptying machine. If people want to spend money on that then I'm happy for them to blow their wad on it. but up until this point it remains firmly at the starting gate with nothing but anecdotes to support it. and as they say- the plural of anecdote is not data.... I can see no rational method of function for these devices that can lead to a decrease in system noise, in fact the contrary seems obviously apparent when you look at the pointless mish mash of wires they add into the mix. But who fucking knows, right? I agree. But wanting some clarity seems to be regarded by some as a sort of heresy. |
|
|
|
Post by savvypaul on Feb 10, 2019 20:34:42 GMT
If your vinyl system is not sounding great, but I send you out the room and correctly align the cartridge, set the azimuth, vta and vtf for you, and it then sounds like twice the value of system it did before...would you give me £4,000?
What about if I put a little box behind the turntable?
I mean, what does it matter how I did it?
I'm ripping the arse out of you for 4 grand, but it sounds so much better. So, why worry?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 20:53:24 GMT
There's two ways to approach it if you have any scientific rigour. Measure the output with and without it circuit, or blind test it and see if you can identify it. If it measures 'better' as opposed to just an effects box or nothing at all, then that'll be a turn up for the books. If one can identify it blind then I'd certainly expect that to be easy to measure. And we can move onto what it does, followed by how. If one can neither measure a difference or identify it beyond 50/50 luck, then the device is simply a wallet emptying machine. If people want to spend money on that then I'm happy for them to blow their wad on it. but up until this point it remains firmly at the starting gate with nothing but anecdotes to support it. and as they say- the plural of anecdote is not data.... I can see no rational method of function for these devices that can lead to a decrease in system noise, in fact the contrary seems obviously apparent when you look at the pointless mish mash of wires they add into the mix. But who fucking knows, right? I'll try and get Alan's RTZ box when you visit. We can at least try and hear something. |
|
