Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 7, 2019 17:08:21 GMT
I’d advise any maker of these things to publish their actual material and build costs. I’m not interested in R&D costs because I’m sick of hearing such claims from chancers knocking stuff up in their garage.
I realise they want to keep materials secret but there’s no harm in actually reporting what it costs to put together. Anyone charging more than 3 times that price is a con man imo. Anyone charging more than double is still taking a bit of a lend.
I bet the 2k one costs under £100 so what wouldn’t that make them?
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Post by savvypaul on Feb 7, 2019 18:25:04 GMT
I’d advise any maker of these things to publish their actual material and build costs. I’m not interested in R&D costs because I’m sick of hearing such claims from chancers knocking stuff up in their garage. I realise they want to keep materials secret but there’s no harm in actually reporting what it costs to put together. Anyone charging more than 3 times that price is a con man imo. Anyone charging more than double is still taking a bit of a lend. I bet the 2k one costs under £100 so what wouldn’t that make them? I remember when Jimmy Hughes discovered that twin & earth could sound better than the then available speaker cables. He didn't wrap it in a fancy jacket and plugs and charge £50 a metre...he said 'go get some from your hardware shop and try it, it's 50p'. I'd probably be slightly more generous about margins than Westie has been above, but we do seem to have entered a depressingly opportunistic phase...
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Post by macca on Feb 7, 2019 18:40:37 GMT
I see no reason why these should cost 3 figures let alone 4. Unless you want a box and grounding material made from some semi precious material. In which case it becomes jewellery. The fact that there’s no definitive line on why they work, isn’t necessarily a turn off for me. Lots of scientific discoveries were once seen as “magic” or deception. I’m sure the future will be no different. All I really care about is whether it makes the sound better for me and could I get one as cheaply as possible. That said, I’m not at all keen on extra boxes and I fecking hate wires so it would have to be something significant to make me inclined to bother, even if it wasn’t free. My “faffometer” is more and more sensitive to any form of hassle these days. If the theory I've been given is right then this is no scientific discovery simply the application of something to audio. People may have done it before and reported improvements too. Think about how they ground the electrics and electronics on an aircraft, should give you a clue. Personally I don't know enough about electronic engineering to even chance to say yes or no but as I said it is IMO the most credible explanation so far. It really would be something if it was new science, I mean Nobel prize time and so forth. So it really isn't that. I don't think any new science has ever been discovered by a hi-fi manufacturer (happy to be educated though). Although they have employed many new technologies and material over the years, that isn't the same as discovering them.
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Post by pauld on Feb 7, 2019 18:42:23 GMT
This is one of those try before you buy scenarios. Why wouldn't they work? "Work" as in how or what? Why wouldn't they make a difference?
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Post by pauld on Feb 7, 2019 18:43:35 GMT
I've got an open mind about the possibility it could have some effect. I've got a firmly closed mind about the price tag and the marketing guff that surrounds it. Madness... Spot on. The price is outrageous. Saying that, we don't know what's in them with any certainty. I doubt it's £1k worth of stuff There are cheaper grounding boxes available.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 18:44:25 GMT
Spot on. The price is outrageous. Saying that, we don't know what's in them with any certainty. I doubt it's £1k worth of stuff There are cheaper grounding boxes available. Yes, can be bought for around £80. That's not quite a sensational though is it lol
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Post by pauld on Feb 7, 2019 18:45:36 GMT
I’d advise any maker of these things to publish their actual material and build costs. Do you do the same for Naim or Linn or whoever products?, if not why specifically for these?
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Post by pauld on Feb 7, 2019 18:46:41 GMT
There are cheaper grounding boxes available. Yes, can be bought for around £80. That's not quite a sensational though is it lol Nope. I am only sceptical at the moment because I haven't tried one. After trying I will get the opportunity to judge myself whether they are worth the money.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 7, 2019 18:54:15 GMT
I’d advise any maker of these things to publish their actual material and build costs. Do you do the same for Naim or Linn or whoever products?, if not why specifically for these? I’ve been into Hi-Fi for almost 40 years. I’ve seen a lot of kit in that time. I’ve also spent more than my fair share of time looking at component prices. I think I can judge reasonably well what a conventional product is worth. That said, I don’t buy new largely because I feel,most charge way too much. I’d argue it’s different for a box full of unspecified materials with no known function. There is a greater onus to prove it’s not a scam and also a lesser opportunity for a buyer to assess costs because of this.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 7, 2019 19:03:38 GMT
I think there are at least three separate considerations here.
1. Do they actuallly improve the sound or even perception of sound? 2. Is it known by the makers exactly how they do this? 3. Are the prices charged fair in terms of actual costs?
1. Well if they don’t do this I’m not interested. Goes without saying, I guess. Personally I’d need to hear repeatable and significant benefits over time. 2. I don’t give a monkeys whether they know or not. I also don’t care if they come up with some pseudo scientific explanation. If they work and I’m happy with the price, I don’t care whether the results are a happy accident or a deliberate design. 3. Even if they work and whether or not the science is known, I’m not buying anything that costs £50 to make and sells for £500. I’m not telling anyone how to spend their money but I am free to from my own conclusions about such rip offs.
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Post by pauld on Feb 7, 2019 19:04:57 GMT
I wouldn't entirely argue with you, but as long as the box makes enough of a difference to increase enjoyment of ones system, isn't that enough?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 7, 2019 19:08:28 GMT
I guess it’s personal choice, but not for me. If someone is overcharging then I don’t want their product. I will buy from someone who offers better value, DIY or buy used and let someone else lose money.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 19:10:57 GMT
"Work" as in how or what? Why wouldn't they make a difference? Should anybody think that they would? In all the chat about grounding boxes, two terms regularly pop up, "I assume" and "presumably". In other words, nobody actually knows what they are talking about! No design principles have been fowarded and no operational theories outlined. This seems deliberate obfuscation, so I can only assume the whole idea is bullshit! I've never been one to think that things are a 'good idea' just because the herd think so. What will it be next, adults really believing in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus?
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 7, 2019 19:17:34 GMT
I’d be more likely to conclude the maker has found something that appears to work and is trying to hide the fact they haven’t a clue why it does so. Is that because they want to charge more than is reasonable and therefore try to hang some fancy explanation on it? More likely than not. I’ve already seen claims that the innards “cost a lot” or that the maker has spent a fortune on R&D. If they want those claims taken seriously let’s have some hard numbers.
It may still work though. I genuinely have no idea but I will rely on Oliver to experiment and share.
If there’s is some merit in DIY versions then many can do this for £20 or so. Then it’s up to the makers of premium versions to either tell us why theirs is better or let us know why it costs so much more. Both would be nice, but I’m trying to be realistic lol.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2019 23:44:30 GMT
Entertaining as it may be, I'm a bit puzzled over the hoo-ha surrounding this item and how some are having an attack of the vapours of the price. If there's a market for £2,300 Grounding Boxes - and it would seem there is - then Top Cat (Mr T.C.), and others, will supply it. What's new? It's the way the world is/was/always will be. It's a hardly unique state of affairs. There was a time, of course, when the audio accessory market was...well...err... quite conservative. You had the likes of the Monitor Audio Sty-Lift for raising a tonearm when reaching the end of an LP, a Zerostat Pistol for neutralising static, Kontact Fluid for cleaning a status tip, the Monitor Audio POD. A record clamp. And suchlike, the cost of which would vary between £5 - £20. Sadly, sadly, like flares, sexist advertising, the original Walnut Whip - that time has gone, and never to return... The 'rot' set-in with cables, of course. In the beginning you made do with bell wire, or if you were 'serious' about your sound, mains cable. And then QED brought out 79 Strand (or was it 42 Strand first?). In a short space of time it seemed like The World & It's Granny jumped on the cables bandwagon intent on supplying the poor audiophile a myriad of choices - at a cost, of course. And so it has proliferated to include all manner of items, at all manner of prices, and so it will continue. As I mentioned over on TAS, I too am joining the fray bringing to the audiophile market the next BIG THING - Personal Grounding Attire (PGA). Connected to a grounding box, it will allow you to be at the same potential (highly desirable) as your kit. The full monty suit (complete with Delta Shield) will retail at £5,000. For the tight buggers amongst you who don't want to part with cash, there will be the Kronos Kap, priced at an affordable £1,500. A bargain if ever there was one, in my opinion.
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Post by sq225917 on Feb 8, 2019 0:23:52 GMT
I'm only interested in if they are capable of increasing signal fidelity, do they reduce noise, improve snr, do anything measurable and repeatable? I'm not bothered if they change the sound of a system in any way that someone prefers, people prefer all sorts of reduced-fi Sh#t.
Its easy to make any system measure worse, it takes a special kind of cnut to sell something that does this and fleece people at the same time.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 8, 2019 9:52:18 GMT
I’ve added a poll for fun
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2019 10:01:17 GMT
Someone I know has bought TC's RTZ grounding box. I will be getting a listen in my system.
I solemnly promise to be 100% honest about it.
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Post by macca on Feb 8, 2019 12:37:53 GMT
I'm only interested in if they are capable of increasing signal fidelity, do they reduce noise, improve snr, do anything measurable and repeatable? I'm not bothered if they change the sound of a system in any way that someone prefers, people prefer all sorts of reduced-fi Sh#t. That's my feelings too.
I voted that I want to find out what they do first. Then I'll get a sub £100 quid one.
I mean £600 just for a cable to attach to it? If I'd won 100 million on the lottery I still wouldn't fork that out.
Why are most hi-fi people so trusting? Or is that for another thread?
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Post by macca on Feb 8, 2019 12:39:28 GMT
Someone I know has bought TC's RTZ grounding box. I will be getting a listen in my system. I solemnly promise to be 100% honest about it. When's this happening Oli? Can I come over for it?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2019 12:45:50 GMT
You're welcome too. Let me get a date sorted out and I'll let you know.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 8, 2019 13:09:17 GMT
I'm only interested in if they are capable of increasing signal fidelity, do they reduce noise, improve snr, do anything measurable and repeatable? I'm not bothered if they change the sound of a system in any way that someone prefers, people prefer all sorts of reduced-fi Sh#t. That's my feelings too.
I voted that I want to find out what they do first. Then I'll get a sub £100 quid one.
I mean £600 just for a cable to attach to it? If I'd won 100 million on the lottery I still wouldn't fork that out.
Why are most hi-fi people so trusting? Or is that for another thread?
Couldn’t agree more: The prices for cables to attach to it are even more dubious when it’s only the ground that’s connected and not the signal. There has to be a point when it’s acceptabke to label it a rip off. And I think that point is at least one decimal point lower than the prices I’ve seen.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2019 13:32:43 GMT
Yet another hifi foo product, dreamt up by conmen who's sole intention is to scam the gullable people out of their cash.
But hey it's your dosh.......!!!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 8, 2019 14:28:52 GMT
Yet another hifi foo product, dreamt up by conmen who's sole intention is to scam the gullable people out of their cash. But hey it's your dosh.......!!! Nobody’s mentioned it here yet, but assuming you’re putting £2800 into that Coherent blokes pocket and then the same again for cables to plumb it in. Are you really not able to get moe by dropping an extra £5k on kit? Same goes for the “budget” RTZ bits. Surely the dosh has to be better spent on kit or music. That’s before we even get to resale value. I can’t imagine these things holding their value very well.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2019 14:42:26 GMT
Yet another hifi foo product, dreamt up by conmen who's sole intention is to scam the gullable people out of their cash. But hey it's your dosh.......!!! That’s before we even get to resale value. I can’t imagine these things holding their value very well. I think you might get a shock trying to trade your expensive 'magic box' in to the average dealer.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Feb 8, 2019 14:57:19 GMT
That’s before we even get to resale value. I can’t imagine these things holding their value very well. I think you might get a shock trying to trade your expensive 'magic box' in to the average dealer. But with all that grounding you should at least be protected from all other shocks lol
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Post by macca on Feb 8, 2019 16:02:28 GMT
Yet another hifi foo product, dreamt up by conmen who's sole intention is to scam the gullable people out of their cash. But hey it's your dosh.......!!! Nobody’s mentioned it here yet, but assuming you’re putting £2800 into that Coherent blokes pocket and then the same again for cables to plumb it in. Are you really not able to get moe by dropping an extra £5k on kit? Same goes for the “budget” RTZ bits. Surely the dosh has to be better spent on kit I think the main market is the people who have already bought all the hi-fi they can possibly use and still want more. I mean if you've no qualms about spunking £600 for an interconnect that isn't even in the signal path the likelihood is that the core components of your system are already well into Veblen goods territory.
As for spending it on more music - those days are gone. £20 a month to Tidal and hey presto you've now got everything that was ever recorded in a single wave of Sooty's magic wand.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2019 23:31:51 GMT
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Post by macca on Feb 9, 2019 7:56:02 GMT
Well written, honest, and makes at least some sense. More than we've had from the other manufacturers of similar products. CAD gear is pretty good, certainly a cut above the average so that helps, credibility-wise. Only thing that strikes me is that he reckons the improvements are in the nebulous area of 'pace. rhythm and timing.' Whereas all the users seem to report better bass and improved soundstage. Not seen any mention of PRAT.
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Post by macca on Feb 9, 2019 7:57:40 GMT
Got my pack of ferrite clamps btw so will be giving them a try later on
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