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Post by macca on Apr 1, 2024 11:35:15 GMT
Interesting the difference between q of 0.14 and 0.2 centred on 1Khz with just -1db of adjustment. Switching from 0.14 to 0.2 like lifting a blanket off the vocal mic. You can see on this chart from the manual the range the different Q settings covers: I don't think it will need too much more tweaking to get it just right. He says.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 1, 2024 12:37:23 GMT
Interesting the difference between q of 0.14 and 0.2 centred on 1Khz with just -1db of adjustment. Switching from 0.14 to 0.2 like lifting a blanket off the vocal mic. You can see on this chart from the manual the range the different Q settings covers: I don't think it will need too much more tweaking to get it just right. He says. Tuneable speakers is the way to go mate.
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Post by macca on Apr 1, 2024 13:09:19 GMT
Interesting the difference between q of 0.14 and 0.2 centred on 1Khz with just -1db of adjustment. Switching from 0.14 to 0.2 like lifting a blanket off the vocal mic. You can see on this chart from the manual the range the different Q settings covers: I don't think it will need too much more tweaking to get it just right. He says. Tuneable speakers is the way to go mate. It's all digital EQ at the end of the day, it works the same way whether it's done in the speaker or before. Obviously the speaker needs to be good to begin with, can't make a silk purse etc.
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Arke
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Post by Arke on Apr 1, 2024 13:42:37 GMT
Tuneable speakers is the way to go mate. It's all digital EQ at the end of the day, it works the same way whether it's done in the speaker or before. Obviously the speaker needs to be good to begin with, can't make a silk purse etc. How did you measure/identify the areas that require boosts/cuts?
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Post by macca on Apr 1, 2024 14:09:32 GMT
It's all digital EQ at the end of the day, it works the same way whether it's done in the speaker or before. Obviously the speaker needs to be good to begin with, can't make a silk purse etc. How did you measure/identify the areas that require boosts/cuts? Just by playing about with EQ, listening to recordings, playing about some more. Not just with this unit - I have several analogue equalisers that I've previously experimented with fairly extensively - which is why I know the 1Khz area is where to concentrate to get the presentation I want.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 1, 2024 15:45:54 GMT
Tuneable speakers is the way to go mate. It's all digital EQ at the end of the day, it works the same way whether it's done in the speaker or before. Obviously the speaker needs to be good to begin with, can't make a silk purse etc. Well, not quite. Only the lower mids - LF is getting any treatment/processing, whereas everything that you hear goes through PEQ.
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Post by macca on Apr 1, 2024 17:16:16 GMT
It's all digital EQ at the end of the day, it works the same way whether it's done in the speaker or before. Obviously the speaker needs to be good to begin with, can't make a silk purse etc. Well, not quite. Only the lower mids - LF is getting any treatment/processing, whereas everything that you hear goes through PEQ. I'm only making a small adjustment over a small area of the frequency response but it does make a big difference - gets rid of that little bit of clatter - it's as good as a speaker upgrade, I'm not kidding. And it's all happening in the digital domain - there's no noise or distortion being added just because the PEQ is switched in. The only change made to the signal is to the area that you change. Proof is in the pudding when you have a listen to with and without. I make a bet you prefer it with.
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 1, 2024 17:17:09 GMT
Well, not quite. Only the lower mids - LF is getting any treatment/processing, whereas everything that you hear goes through PEQ. I'm only making a small adjustment over a small area of the frequency response but it does make a big difference - gets rid of that little bit of clatter - it's as good as a speaker upgrade, I'm not kidding. And it's all happening in the digital domain - there's no noise or distortion being added just because the PEQ is switched in. The only change made to the signal is to the area that you change. Proof is in the pudding when you have a listen to with and without. I make a bet you prefer it with. Well I prefer my speakers with, so I'd not be surprised to be honest.
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Post by macca on Apr 1, 2024 17:31:31 GMT
Your treating a different problem anyway, your issue was unruly bass. With a much bigger room I don't have any of the usual LF issues, but the mid and top does have to go further to reach me so more chance for it to bounce about and make issues.
Just putting loads of absorption everywhere, aside from being inconvenient, can create its own problems. Much better to fix it at source.
Horses for courses.
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optical
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Post by optical on Apr 1, 2024 17:39:51 GMT
PEQ throughout the FR range does change the sound though, in my experience anyway.
I use it now from 200hz and below as it's not quite as obvious in the LF.
Each time I've used PEQ to combat room issues/imbalances in the past, it has worked, no doubt, but each time I've taken it out of the chain and returned things to 'normal', it sounds more natural and musical. At least to me.
I guess your PEQ may be better than mine (I have used a Behringer 2496PEQ among others in the past) but ultimately I didn't find it 'transparent', or I would have kept it in for it's virtues.
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Post by macca on Apr 1, 2024 18:04:13 GMT
Maybe so but my PEQ is from 1989!
I think it very much depends on what you're doing with it, how much your attempting to do with it, and what the fundamental issue is that you're trying to fix.
I'm just making a 1dB adjustment across a very narrow band of frequencies - about 950Hz to 1.5 KHz. Outside of that the signal is untouched.
The effect is one of 'blacker blacks'. Little details in the soundstage come out more and guitar tone sounds more textured and real. Suspect there was some masking going on from a peak in that area.
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Post by macca on Apr 1, 2024 18:08:21 GMT
I should add that if you're trying to correct above Schroeder based on in room measurements you're probably on a hiding to nothing. In room measurements don't reliably correlate to what we actually hear above that frequency. You got to tune based on the anechoic measurement and good old 'listening to music.'
You never see them measuring anything at the soundcheck for a gig (except maybe SPL for noise level rules), all done by ear.
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optical
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Post by optical on Apr 1, 2024 18:11:21 GMT
Well of it sounds better there's no argument as to if it's 'right' or 'wrong', if it sounds better it's better!
My experience is that even running PEQ with no FR adjustments Vs PEQ completely removed from the chain, there were still audible differences on all of the occasions I've tried it.
I do know exactly what you mean though by small, indeed tiny tweaks, having somewhat of a dramatic effect on the listening impression.
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Post by macca on Apr 1, 2024 18:21:42 GMT
Well of it sounds better there's no argument as to if it's 'right' or 'wrong', if it sounds better it's better! I do know exactly what you mean though by small, indeed tiny tweaks, having somewhat of a dramatic effect on the listening impression. The problem is, does it sound better with everything? That was the issue I had last time, some stuff sounded better, some worse. This time round I'm a bit more clued up on what I'm doing with it but there's only so many records you can listen to in a day. So far so good but we'll see. Small change - big difference? Yes - I think that the key is to use it like a scalpel not a club
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Post by Arke on Apr 2, 2024 9:19:14 GMT
I should add that if you're trying to correct above Schroeder based on in room measurements you're probably on a hiding to nothing. In room measurements don't reliably correlate to what we actually hear above that frequency. You got to tune based on the anechoic measurement and good old 'listening to music.' You never see them measuring anything at the soundcheck for a gig (except maybe SPL for noise level rules), all done by ear. Be good to know the source of this theory/assertion? Please share any links. In most rooms, I have tweaked/tuned speaker/listening position based on actual measurements and listening. They have virtually always correlated in 10s of rooms/systems. Flatter FR and lower distortion above the Schroeder frequency has always been best SQ. IME above the Schroeder frequency has been very tweak-able with toe in, tilt, positioning and absorption/diffraction. Perhaps my experience is rather unique and just a fluke. I'd love to know more if you have evidence of why it would be better to setup without measuring (at listening position) above say 200Hz.
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Post by Arke on Apr 2, 2024 9:29:48 GMT
"You never see them measuring anything at the soundcheck for a gig (except maybe SPL for noise level rules), all done by ear."
Also, a friend sets up sound rigs at gigs/events for a job (he does this all over Europe and is very experienced) and WILL always measure through the entire FR. He will use the measurements to get the sound balanced over as much of the audience as possible. These measurements will be used to angle and arrange the HF, mid and low frequency speaker arrays. All crossovers are active and the listening position measurements are used the balance the FR.
Perhaps he shouldn't be using the measurements either?
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Post by bencat on Apr 2, 2024 9:45:52 GMT
Given some of the concerts I have been to the sound engineer has arranged things to sound fine through headphones and never even bother to listen what is being heard in the venue itself . There are a number of concerts which had such poor sound that I ended up walking out .
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Post by macca on Apr 2, 2024 16:51:09 GMT
I should add that if you're trying to correct above Schroeder based on in room measurements you're probably on a hiding to nothing. In room measurements don't reliably correlate to what we actually hear above that frequency. You got to tune based on the anechoic measurement and good old 'listening to music.' You never see them measuring anything at the soundcheck for a gig (except maybe SPL for noise level rules), all done by ear. Be good to know the source of this theory/assertion? Please share any links. In most rooms, I have tweaked/tuned speaker/listening position based on actual measurements and listening. They have virtually always correlated in 10s of rooms/systems. Flatter FR and lower distortion above the Schroeder frequency has always been best SQ. IME above the Schroeder frequency has been very tweak-able with toe in, tilt, positioning and absorption/diffraction. Perhaps my experience is rather unique and just a fluke. I'd love to know more if you have evidence of why it would be better to setup without measuring (at listening position) above say 200Hz. www.amazon.co.uk/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers-Engineering/dp/113892136XYou will need to buy the book but I'd highly recommend it. Unless you have membership of the AES it's the best reference available. Based on decades of serious research, not enthusiasts like us just having a listen and jumping to a conclusion. It's not dryly written but it is an academic textbook so it's fairly heavy going.
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Post by macca on Apr 2, 2024 17:00:02 GMT
"You never see them measuring anything at the soundcheck for a gig (except maybe SPL for noise level rules), all done by ear." Also, a friend sets up sound rigs at gigs/events for a job (he does this all over Europe and is very experienced) and WILL always measure through the entire FR. He will use the measurements to get the sound balanced over as much of the audience as possible. These measurements will be used to angle and arrange the HF, mid and low frequency speaker arrays. All crossovers are active and the listening position measurements are used the balance the FR. Perhaps he shouldn't be using the measurements either? permanent front of house systems are measured and calibrated when they're installed but I've never seen anyone measure a PA set up 'on the road' - there's a soundcheck but that's all done by ear and is really only a test to make sure it all works. Ok it's thirty odd years since I was in that game and I accept it's easier to do a measured set up now than it was then. But I suspect it's still rare. I have a friend who runs a front of house system (about a million quids worth). Visiting turns send their sound man up to the booth where he plugs in his iPad and that calibrates all the sound and installs all the lighting cues specific to their performance. But they don't get out mics and go down and measure it. Aside from anything else, the difference between measuring in an empty house and the actual sound when it's got two thousand people in there means it wouldn't be much help.
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Post by Arke on Apr 2, 2024 17:36:25 GMT
Be good to know the source of this theory/assertion? Please share any links. In most rooms, I have tweaked/tuned speaker/listening position based on actual measurements and listening. They have virtually always correlated in 10s of rooms/systems. Flatter FR and lower distortion above the Schroeder frequency has always been best SQ. IME above the Schroeder frequency has been very tweak-able with toe in, tilt, positioning and absorption/diffraction. Perhaps my experience is rather unique and just a fluke. I'd love to know more if you have evidence of why it would be better to setup without measuring (at listening position) above say 200Hz. www.amazon.co.uk/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers-Engineering/dp/113892136XYou will need to buy the book but I'd highly recommend it. Unless you have membership of the AES it's the best reference available. Based on decades of serious research, not enthusiasts like us just having a listen and jumping to a conclusion. It's not dryly written but it is an academic textbook so it's fairly heavy going. Cheers Martin. Really appreciate that. I always find it worthwhile and informative to gather as much data and varying experiences as possible. I often setup by listening in all positions and measure, but don't look at the measurememts until I have listened without prejudice. Interestingly, and reassuringly, my preferred solution (when blind on measurements) has been backed up by the measurements. It does show that our ears can be incredibly good at telling us when it's right.
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Post by Arke on Apr 2, 2024 17:41:21 GMT
"You never see them measuring anything at the soundcheck for a gig (except maybe SPL for noise level rules), all done by ear." Also, a friend sets up sound rigs at gigs/events for a job (he does this all over Europe and is very experienced) and WILL always measure through the entire FR. He will use the measurements to get the sound balanced over as much of the audience as possible. These measurements will be used to angle and arrange the HF, mid and low frequency speaker arrays. All crossovers are active and the listening position measurements are used the balance the FR. Perhaps he shouldn't be using the measurements either? permanent front of house systems are measured and calibrated when they're installed but I've never seen anyone measure a PA set up 'on the road' - there's a soundcheck but that's all done by ear and is really only a test to make sure it all works. Ok it's thirty odd years since I was in that game and I accept it's easier to do a measured set up now than it was then. But I suspect it's still rare. I have a friend who runs a front of house system (about a million quids worth). Visiting turns send their sound man up to the booth where he plugs in his iPad and that calibrates all the sound and installs all the lighting cues specific to their performance. But they don't get out mics and go down and measure it. Aside from anything else, the difference between measuring in an empty house and the actual sound when it's got two thousand people in there means it wouldn't be much help. Speaking to him he has confirmed that measuring at larger gigs to setup wasn't done so much in the past. You're right regarding the people changing the measurements completely in venue. He has done a few test events where they measure with and without the people to learn the difference and how to tune accordingly. They can get it close without people (based on experience) and then often fine tune balance at the beginning of a gig when the venue is full. I am very sure there are two camps: those who do it all by ear; and those who listen and measure.
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Post by macca on Apr 2, 2024 19:23:07 GMT
Cheers Martin. Really appreciate that. I always find it worthwhile and informative to gather as much data and varying experiences as possible. I often setup by listening in all positions and measure, but don't look at the measurememts until I have listened without prejudice. Interestingly, and reassuringly, my preferred solution (when blind on measurements) has been backed up by the measurements . It does show that our ears can be incredibly good at telling us when it's right. Really worth getting if only as a reference. especially as you are in the business. As for the last bit I think our brains tell us when it's right. It's just something instinctive. You can't define it but you know it when it is there - or when it isn't. The hard part is being honest with ourselves when it isn't. Especially if we just spent a ton of money on something!
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Post by jandl100 on Apr 3, 2024 3:13:59 GMT
>> As for the last bit I think our brains tell us when it's right how we like it today << Ftfy It makes more sense that way imo. Most of us prefer a flatish, although sloped down through the treble fr. Have you knowingly heard a genuinely horizontal fr? It's very bright to most folk's ears. Although the amount of treble rolloff is down to personal preference. And a dB or 2 (or more) scooped out of the mid and upper bass can make our hearing lock onto the music's rhythm better. It's not usually noticeabley 'off' tonally on amplified music, unless you know how the music should sound, which is usually a tricky one. This is a large part of the secret of the Flat Earth toe tapping sound. These two deliberate tonal anomalies are usually the main difference between a classical music focused system and others ime. >> The hard part is being honest with ourselves when it isn't.<< I agree with that.
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Post by Arke on Apr 3, 2024 5:52:38 GMT
Cheers Martin. Really appreciate that. I always find it worthwhile and informative to gather as much data and varying experiences as possible. I often setup by listening in all positions and measure, but don't look at the measurememts until I have listened without prejudice. Interestingly, and reassuringly, my preferred solution (when blind on measurements) has been backed up by the measurements . It does show that our ears can be incredibly good at telling us when it's right. Really worth getting if only as a reference. especially as you are in the business. As for the last bit I think our brains tell us when it's right. It's just something instinctive. You can't define it but you know it when it is there - or when it isn't. The hard part is being honest with ourselves when it isn't. Especially if we just spent a ton of money on something! I shall try and get round to buying it soon. "I should add that if you're trying to correct above Schroeder based on in room measurements you're probably on a hiding to nothing. In room measurements don't reliably correlate to what we actually hear above that frequency. You got to tune based on the anechoic measurement and good old 'listening to music." It's this assertion that I'd like a detailed scientific reasoning for. So far it is not my experience. Tuning above and below the Schroeder frequency by measuring in room is exactly what I do. So far, it has worked reliably for me - in room measurements have correlated with what I and others have actually heard. When I get time, I'll write a thread and share all the measurements of speakers in different rooms. It shows that when tuned well (and sounding 'right') the measurements have always correlated. If I can find the data/reason that backs up your assertion, we can explore that too.
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Post by Arke on Apr 3, 2024 5:57:56 GMT
>> As for the last bit I think our brains tell us when it's right how we like it today << Ftfy It makes more sense that way imo. Most of us prefer a flatish, although sloped down through the treble fr. Have you knowingly heard a genuinely horizontal fr? It's very bright to most folk's ears. Although the amount of treble rolloff is down to personal preference. And a dB or 2 (or more) scooped out of the mid and upper bass can make our hearing lock onto the music's rhythm better. It's not usually noticeabley 'off' tonally on amplified music, unless you know how the music should sound, which is usually a tricky one. This is a large part of the secret of the Flat Earth toe tapping sound. These two deliberate tonal anomalies are usually the main difference between a classical music focused system and others ime. >> The hard part is being honest with ourselves when it isn't.<< I agree with that. Yes, AND very importantly many of ours brains like something different to the next person! Scooped out upper bass is what you heard when you last went to Oli's (without room tuning). Obvs the 40Hz was boosted too. I personally don't like scooped out upper bass as it can sound thin and lack drive - drums, double bass, Cello, Sax etc. lose punch (drums), body and richness.
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Post by bencat on Apr 3, 2024 11:27:36 GMT
It is not really very hard to realise why we all hear differently . Our hearing route in the brain which is a very early established pathway is different for each individual and fro some reason very different for men and women . This means that any sound going to the brain will travel through very different sectors of the brain all of which will change the sound for want of a better word flavour of the sound . Once this pathway is set and fixed then it stays that way till you die .
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Post by macca on Apr 3, 2024 17:30:29 GMT
Really worth getting if only as a reference. especially as you are in the business. As for the last bit I think our brains tell us when it's right. It's just something instinctive. You can't define it but you know it when it is there - or when it isn't. The hard part is being honest with ourselves when it isn't. Especially if we just spent a ton of money on something! I shall try and get round to buying it soon. "I should add that if you're trying to correct above Schroeder based on in room measurements you're probably on a hiding to nothing. In room measurements don't reliably correlate to what we actually hear above that frequency. You got to tune based on the anechoic measurement and good old 'listening to music." It's this assertion that I'd like a detailed scientific reasoning for. So far it is not my experience. Tuning above and below the Schroeder frequency by measuring in room is exactly what I do. So far, it has worked reliably for me - in room measurements have correlated with what I and others have actually heard. If I can find the data/reason that backs up your assertion, we can explore that too. I will look for it at the weekend, the book's sat here on the table but I'm too knackered after work to be looking for the relevant info now. There's about a million pages!
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Post by macca on Apr 3, 2024 17:36:46 GMT
It is not really very hard to realise why we all hear differently . Our hearing route in the brain which is a very early established pathway is different for each individual and fro some reason very different for men and women . This means that any sound going to the brain will travel through very different sectors of the brain all of which will change the sound for want of a better word flavour of the sound . Once this pathway is set and fixed then it stays that way till you die . I don't think we do all hear differently but people do have different priorities in the presentation they like. And those preferences probably form at a quite early age. B&W stopped aiming for a flat response years ago now. They won't publish their research as to why they made that decision for commercial reasons, but they sell a lot of speakers.
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Post by Arke on Apr 3, 2024 17:42:30 GMT
It is not really very hard to realise why we all hear differently . Our hearing route in the brain which is a very early established pathway is different for each individual and fro some reason very different for men and women . This means that any sound going to the brain will travel through very different sectors of the brain all of which will change the sound for want of a better word flavour of the sound . Once this pathway is set and fixed then it stays that way till you die . I don't think we do all hear differently but people do have different priorities in the presentation they like. And those preferences probably form at a quite early age. B&W stopped aiming for a flat response years ago now. They won't publish their research as to why they made that decision for commercial reasons, but they sell a lot of speakers. Probably why I hate the B & W sound 😂. The biggest change is the loss in sensitity from 2khz upwards as we age. 20db @8hz in our 80s! I'll need B and W then!
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Post by Arke on Apr 3, 2024 17:46:42 GMT
I shall try and get round to buying it soon. "I should add that if you're trying to correct above Schroeder based on in room measurements you're probably on a hiding to nothing. In room measurements don't reliably correlate to what we actually hear above that frequency. You got to tune based on the anechoic measurement and good old 'listening to music." It's this assertion that I'd like a detailed scientific reasoning for. So far it is not my experience. Tuning above and below the Schroeder frequency by measuring in room is exactly what I do. So far, it has worked reliably for me - in room measurements have correlated with what I and others have actually heard. If I can find the data/reason that backs up your assertion, we can explore that too. I will look for it at the weekend, the book's sat here on the table but I'm too knackered after work to be looking for the relevant info now. There's about a million pages! That's very kind Martin, thanks. No rush. I won't stop measuring at listening position whilst it reliably helps me achieve a good sound in a quick and effective way. Tuning client's speakers within a few hours is quite a challenge. It would certainly be useful to understand the potential issues or limitations your book may highlight.
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