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Post by macca on Mar 11, 2021 8:09:11 GMT
total cost of this system excluding cables, £1050. Okay the speakers were a bit of a steal, they usually go for about a grand on ebay on the rare occasions they come up. But even so, tell me that this is not a golden age for the enthusiast on a budget.
And everything was bought based on the specs alone. Not that that is any guarantee of anything, but hopefully shows how measurements be useful when selecting equipment to try out.
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Post by jandl100 on Mar 11, 2021 9:53:45 GMT
Whereas my NAD amp (a slightly later model that gets equally ecstatic online user reviews) is on its way today to a Wammer who will keep it as a just in case spare.
Amazing how either a} kit behaves differently in different systems or b} we are after different things from our gear.
I would rate the NAD as half decent.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 11, 2021 10:34:04 GMT
total cost of this system excluding cables, £1050. Okay the speakers were a bit of a steal, they usually go for about a grand on ebay on the rare occasions they come up. But even so, tell me that this is not a golden age for the enthusiast on a budget. And everything was bought based on the specs alone. Not that that is any guarantee of anything, but hopefully shows how measurements be useful when selecting equipment to try out. That's good to hear, Macca. Strange isn't it how a tidy up has made some differences to you system. I know taking the iKEA unit out of mine has made changes too. All for the better. Everyone keep your eyes peeled for a Krell !!!
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Post by macca on Mar 11, 2021 12:06:58 GMT
I wish I knew what it was I did.
Don't want to make any changes now in case I undo whatever it was. I think it must be something to do with the cables. Even that doesn't really make much sense.
The only other thing I can think of is that the Topping E30 took a few hours to 'burn in,' however improbable that might be. I could check that by moving back to the Soncoz but I daren't mess about with it now in case it wasn't any of those things.
It's still not quite as good as my old system, but looks like there is not much chance of being able to go back to that. But the difference is very small. Doesn't sound quite as 'tight' at the frequency extremes, which I'm sure is the amplifier. But in other ways it is actually better. A bit more 'explicit'.
Oscar Peterson Trio 'We Get Requests' was just joke good. Old analogue recording from 1964 with tape hiss. But the realism was astonishing - decay on the piano notes, the effect of the soft pedal, resonance of the double bass - all laid bare. Shame I can't have the speakers further apart else it would really have sounded like they were set up at the end of the room.
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Post by macca on Mar 12, 2021 18:07:24 GMT
March 2021. Can't see me changing any of this anytime soon. It's like 95 percent of perfect. On balance, I settle for that. Note the room treatment on the wall next to the r/h speaker. Still not got around to ordering the special glue to put it all up. The big thing sticking out next to it is the subwoofer for the TV system. Been meaning to put that in for ages, just not got around to it. Not hooked up yet but will do that tomorrow.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 12, 2021 18:31:31 GMT
March 2021. Can't see me changing any of this anytime soon. It's like 95 percent of perfect. On balance, I settle for that. Note the room treatment on the wall next to the r/h speaker. Still not got around to ordering the special glue to put it all up. The big thing sticking out next to it is the subwoofer for the TV system. Been meaning to put that in for ages, just not got around to it. Not hooked up yet but will do that tomorrow. If it's working for you, then don't change a thing. It's really easy to lost that something special so keep it stable and hopefully you'll be happy for some time!
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Post by macca on Mar 12, 2021 19:08:14 GMT
I'm still going to try an early 1980s JVC though. Doing some research at the moment. Not going to spend proper money like, just a bit of fun.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 12, 2021 19:25:13 GMT
I'm still going to try an early 1980s JVC though. Doing some research at the moment. Not going to spend proper money like, just a bit of fun. Yeah, why not!
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Post by macca on Mar 12, 2021 19:57:58 GMT
Whereas my NAD amp (a slightly later model that gets equally ecstatic online user reviews) is on its way today to a Wammer who will keep it as a just in case spare. Amazing how either a} kit behaves differently in different systems or b} we are after different things from our gear. I would rate the NAD as half decent. Sorry Jerry, I missed this yesterday. I think could be a number or combination of factors here. Agree kit can sound different in different combinations, usually not enough to matter but some times a surprising amount. We arn't all chasing the same sound, that's true. Although I do wonder if we might be quite close in that regard. The NAD you got is from some years later, we don't have the performance figures for it like we do with the 320. It might be better, or might be cost-cut in some way compared to the 320. Your speakers are going to be more revealing of everything than mine. The worse the speaker the more upstream horrors it conceals, at least sometimes anyway. I suppose it depends on what your benchmark for 'decent' is. I'd certainly put it in the top ten of amps I have owned. I don't know how many that is, I'd guess about thirty or forty. I'd give it a 'decent plus' on a scale of tat to outstanding.
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Post by macca on Mar 13, 2021 13:15:21 GMT
I have it on 4 as one of the reviews (Paul Rigby) reckoned this was their preference, not tried the others yet. Quite funny in that review, he complains that there is not an option to select no filter. When it's pointed out to him in the comments that there has to be a filter he tries to cover up by saying he prefers not to have a choice. Err yeah, okay mate. Further to the filter options on the E30, I just sat here and cycled through all six of them and I really cannot tell any difference whatsoever between any of them despite trying my hardest.
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Post by macca on Mar 13, 2021 13:20:54 GMT
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 13, 2021 13:25:55 GMT
"I thought it would be bigger?"
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Post by jandl100 on Mar 14, 2021 3:23:03 GMT
..... Amazing how.... we are after different things from our gear..... .....We arn't all chasing the same sound, that's true. Although I do wonder if we might be quite close in that regard. I suspect not. I'm still missing on your 'sweetness' as a top priority. (Although you are, of course, a sweetie). And you agreed with me on our respective NAD amps being poor on soundstage depth and treble resolution, but you obviously aren't that bothered about it. Absolute top priorities for me! It's those 2 that completely dished the NAD and made it unacceptable for me. So, yep, very different goals for our systems. Right or wrong doesn't come in to it, just very different!
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Post by macca on Mar 14, 2021 8:04:11 GMT
True soundstage depth, soundstage in general is not that a big a priority for me. A lot of the time I don't even listen on axis.
I do love holographic imaging and systems I have heard that do that, it blows me away. But with my room there's only so far I can take that, the room is the limiting factor and that's not going to change, so I don't stress on it.
'Sweetness' not so sure about. What I call sweetness you probably call something else. Purity of tone? I don't know. A lack of a 'mechanical' sound or a 'hard' sound? I think that it's a linguistic issue.
Top end resolution - yes it matters to me, yes the NAD is not the best there, that's why I was saying I've got 95 percent. The other 5 percent is that last bit. Right now with work coming to an end next year I can't be punting madly anymore, hi-fi budget has gone from a grand a month to nothing a month. So I have to go careful if I'm going to fix that. Can't afford an expensive mistake.
As it stands it's a sin of omission, not commission. So it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of listening to music even though intellectually I know that there is a level beyond what I have right now.
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Post by raygun on Mar 15, 2021 2:29:17 GMT
"I thought it would be bigger?" Blah blah LPs blah blah same pressure on each side when stored blah blah Guessing your curtains aren't Laura Ashley Martin?
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Post by macca on Mar 15, 2021 8:37:08 GMT
You're right Raymondo, been meaning to sort that out.
Most of those are going to get sold.
The curtains came with the house, never seen any reason to change them, although I did have all the windows replaced with double glazed units years ago now.
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Post by macca on Mar 21, 2021 11:36:08 GMT
Thought I'd have another go at bypassing the pre-amp stage on the NAD 320BEE since its measured performance is quite a bit poorer than the power amp section. I did try direct to power amp previously with the Soncoz DAC but got some low level hum through the speakers so must be some sort of ground loop. Deployed this Philips 22AH280 'Black Tulip' pre-amp and works fine, no hum at all. Also seems to be a small step up in sound quality vs the built in pre on the NAD. Not quite as full-on but slightly more 'open' too. The Philips isn't quite stock as Alan Firebottle did something to it although I can't recall what now. I do like the look of it though, it's what hifi equipment should look like.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 21, 2021 12:45:01 GMT
Thought I'd have another go at bypassing the pre-amp stage on the NAD 320BEE since its measured performance is quite a bit poorer than the power amp section. I did try direct to power amp previously with the Soncoz DAC but got some low level hum through the speakers so must be some sort of ground loop. Deployed this Philips 22AH280 'Black Tulip' pre-amp and works fine, no hum at all. Also seems to be a small step up in sound quality vs the built in pre on the NAD. Not quite as full-on but slightly more 'open' too. The Philips isn't quite stock as Alan Firebottle did something to it although I can't recall what now. I do like the look of it though, it's what hifi equipment should look like. Yeah, good looking unit that Phillips.
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Post by macca on Mar 21, 2021 14:52:30 GMT
Further listening seems to indicate whatever wasn't quite right in the top end before is now fine. Not top notch but closer than it was. Overall this is more natural sounding, just a different character to the sound.
I have no idea what that's all about. I am sure there is more to impedance matching than the 'times ten' rule.
I will have to try the Soncoz with this pre-amp and see if that still sounds soft. Tomorrow now as I've got into a bit of a session and I don't like to change lanes once I get going.
Need to get that DCB1 sorted so I can use it with my other power amps, that's got to be a better pre than the Philips, right? Going to take it into the pro shop tomorrow.
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Post by macca on Mar 22, 2021 14:39:07 GMT
Took the DCB1 into the pro shop. See how that goes. He reckons a ground has come loose from one channel of the input, sounds plausible.
Says he's snowed under right now - the place looks like it too! So might be a while.
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Post by antonio on Mar 22, 2021 14:43:32 GMT
I mentioned this on the 'other forum', didn't realise the DCB1 was out due to an injury.
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Post by macca on Mar 22, 2021 14:50:07 GMT
Yes, it works fine with the two Krells but with every other power amp I own it has hum in left channel.
Although have to say I am liking what the Black Tulip/NAD pre/power combo does. I could happily live with it. Good job really as I might have to!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 22, 2021 14:52:32 GMT
Yes, it works fine with the two Krells but with every other power amp I own it has hum in left channel. Although have to say I am liking what the Black Tulip/NAD pre/power combo does. I could happily live with it. Good job really as I might have to! If he's worth his salt he should be able to fix it as there isn't much to go wrong with them.
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Post by macca on Mar 22, 2021 14:54:36 GMT
I'm sure he can. I doubt it is anything serious.
He's still working on that 1950s juke box he was showing me last time I was in. That's now in bits all over the floor.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Mar 22, 2021 15:11:37 GMT
I'm sure he can. I doubt it is anything serious. He's still working on that 1950s juke box he was showing me last time I was in. That's now in bits all over the floor. It will be good to know what happened to the DCB1.
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Post by jandl100 on Mar 23, 2021 10:00:09 GMT
... Although have to say I am liking what the Black Tulip/NAD pre/power combo does. I could happily live with it. Good job really as I might have to! I liked the Black Tulip preamp I picked up a few years ago. It started a bit of a Black Tulip journeyfor me; a couple of the power amps and a tuner. Very nice gear.
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Post by macca on Mar 23, 2021 11:13:04 GMT
Might be the same one I have Jerry, it's done the forum rounds over the years.
had it ages and this is the first time I've tried it.
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Post by macca on Apr 22, 2021 20:04:36 GMT
Had Ollie come over this morning. He brought me a Krell he had secured for me from somewhere in Welsh Wales. He also brought along his Neurochrome 686 power amp, his BT 2 pre-amp and Soekris DAC so we had a bit of a bake-off. First up we had a listen to the system already set up to get some sort of baseline. This was Audiolab 6000 CD transport, into Topping E30 DAC into a Philips 22AH380 pre, the power section of a NADC320BEE and the JM Lab Electra 926 speakers. We listened to the first couple of tunes from the Isaac Hayes 'Shaft' soundtrack album, for no other reason than it was already in the player. This set up gives a clean, sweet sound that you could listen to for hours since it doesn't do anything wrong or annoying, and the sound is free of the speakers, but at the same time whilst it sounds good there's not many 'wow' moments to be had. The NAD power amp has very good signal to noise but its little frame transformer means there is a limit to what it can do in terms of dynamics and the grip in the bass. For a hundred quid off of eBay you really can't go wrong if you need a cheap but good power amp, but it's no powerhouse. So we decided to swap out the amplification first and put in the BT2 and Neurochrome 686 in place of the Philips/NAD combo. I didn't take a pic of the BT2 as it is just a black box with a stepped pot and a heavy duty on-off switch. The Neurochrome is not blinged up either. It's quiet compact and at a guess weighs in about 15 kilos: We had another listen to Shaft. It was pretty clear there was a lot more power on tap as even at high spl there was no stress on the dynamic peaks and studio ambience around the acoustic instruments was more obvious. The sound was not 'cut' or 'etched' in any way, neither was there any colouration being added, a very neutral presentation, you couldn't really 'hear' the amplifiers at all. This, then, was an ideal set-up for the DAC bake-off to follow. Ollie wanted to swap in the Soekris DAC to compare to the Topping E30 but I wanted another reference first so we had a listen to the traditional hi-fi demo track 'Private Investigations' from the Sony SBM CD version. It's become something of a cliché but it is a good test track as you've got big dynamic swings, acoustic instruments and sound effects. This was also well presented, powerful and controlled, but it did show up some very slight glassines on the heavily struck piano chords. I asked Ollie if he thought that was the DAC or the amp, he says 'It's the DAC mate.' Okay. So we swap the Topping E30 out for the Soekris DAC. This is not standard as Ollie has taken out the switch mode power supplies and replaced them with linear supplies that sit in a separate case and are connected to the DAC via umbilical. Here's the Soekris ready to go: We listen to Private Investigations again. I was especially listening out for the glassiness on the piano hits but it just wasn't there now. Although I thought it was pretty subtle the whole sound was just more natural, more real. We listened to a few of the tracks from Shaft again, again I had the same perception. Ollie reckoned it was a big and obvious difference compared to the Topping but I did not agree. It was subtle, but noticeable. In addition to the piano chords on 'Private Investigations' there was a xylophone on track 3 of Shaft that also seemed to sound more 'real' with the Soekris. More body to the instrument and more realistic decay of the sound of the keys. Again this was slight but noticeable. Next we swapped DACs again, replacing the Soekris with the Soncoz SGD1. Unlike the Soekris this DAC comes with two linear power supplies built in and is highly reagrded. Like the Soekris, the Soncoz did not impart that slight glassiness to the piano chords, but at the same time it did not sound as 'real' as the Soekris. It was a bit like switching from listening to a good turntable to listening to the same song in FM on a good tuner. The same song, it's all there, yet something almost undefinable has changed. Still with the Soncoz in play we had a listen to the last couple of tunes from 'We Get Requests' by Oscar Peterson Trio'. This sounded good. We then swapped the Soekris back in and played the same tracks again. Now I could not really hear any change, but Ollie reckoned it was a big difference. We then listened to 'The Last Time I Saw Richard' from Joni Mitchell's 'Blue' album on both DACs. Again I did not think there was any appreciable difference. Ollie thought it was risible that I could not hear a difference and mentioned a few specific things he had noticed such as the vibrato on Joni's voice being better resolved through the Soekris, and the piano sounding like an upright through the Soncoz but a concert grand through the Soekris. I find it difficult to hold the memory of the sound in my head during the interval of time while the DACs are switched out. I think if I had some way to compare by fast switching between them I would have more of a chance to pick up on any differences. But I think that does indicate that these were not huge differences but subtle. Of course subtle matters. But do bear in mind this was all sighted listening and volume was only matched by ear. Which brings me to the conclusion. If this was a dealer demo and I'd heard all three DACs with a view to taking one home, which one would I go for? I'd go for the Soekris. Not that you can get it from a dealer since it is not stock, Ollie advised that the stock version, with its switch mode supplies. was not as good as this modded one. But after several hours listening my gut instinct was that this was the DAC I preferred. Even though it is the most expensive by some margin, even before you swap the power supplies out. Personally, with retirement coming up, I don't think I will be splashing out on one. But it was very interesting to be able to do the comparison and to be able to have a go on the Neurochrome 686. My sincere thanks to Ollie for making it happen and for finding another Krell for me.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 22, 2021 21:11:56 GMT
Had Ollie come over this morning. He brought me a Krell he had secured for me from somewhere in Welsh Wales. He also brought along his Neurochrome 686 power amp, his BT 2 pre-amp and Soekris DAC so we had a bit of a bake-off. First up we had a listen to the system already set up to get some sort of baseline. This was Audiolab 6000 CD transport, into Topping E30 DAC into a Philips 22AH380 pre, the power section of a NADC320BEE and the JM Lab Electra 926 speakers. We listened to the first couple of tunes from the Isaac Hayes 'Shaft' soundtrack album, for no other reason than it was already in the player. This set up gives a clean, sweet sound that you could listen to for hours since it doesn't do anything wrong or annoying, and the sound is free of the speakers, but at the same time whilst it sounds good there's not many 'wow' moments to be had. The NAD power amp has very good signal to noise but its little frame transformer means there is a limit to what it can do in terms of dynamics and the grip in the bass. For a hundred quid off of eBay you really can't go wrong if you need a cheap but good power amp, but it's no powerhouse. So we decided to swap out the amplification first and put in the BT2 and Neurochrome 686 in place of the Philips/NAD combo. I didn't take a pic of the BT2 as it is just a black box with a stepped pot and a heavy duty on-off switch. The Neurochrome is not blinged up either. It's quiet compact and at a guess weighs in about 15 kilos: We had another listen to Shaft. It was pretty clear there was a lot more power on tap as even at high spl there was no stress on the dynamic peaks and studio ambience around the acoustic instruments was more obvious. The sound was not 'cut' or 'etched' in any way, neither was there any colouration being added, a very neutral presentation, you couldn't really 'hear' the amplifiers at all. This, then, was an ideal set-up for the DAC bake-off to follow. Ollie wanted to swap in the Soekris DAC to compare to the Topping E30 but I wanted another reference first so we had a listen to the traditional hi-fi demo track 'Private Investigations' from the Sony SBM CD version. It's become something of a cliché but it is a good test track as you've got big dynamic swings, acoustic instruments and sound effects. This was also well presented, powerful and controlled, but it did show up some very slight glassines on the heavily struck piano chords. I asked Ollie if he thought that was the DAC or the amp, he says 'It's the DAC mate.' Okay. So we swap the Topping E30 out for the Soekris DAC. This is not standard as Ollie has taken out the switch mode power supplies and replaced them with linear supplies that sit in a separate case and are connected to the DAC via umbilical. Here's the Soekris ready to go: We listen to Private Investigations again. I was especially listening out for the glassiness on the piano hits but it just wasn't there now. Although I thought it was pretty subtle the whole sound was just more natural, more real. We listened to a few of the tracks from Shaft again, again I had the same perception. Ollie reckoned it was a big and obvious difference compared to the Topping but I did not agree. It was subtle, but noticeable. In addition to the piano chords on 'Private Investigations' there was a xylophone on track 3 of Shaft that also seemed to sound more 'real' with the Soekris. More body to the instrument and more realistic decay of the sound of the keys. Again this was slight but noticeable. Next we swapped DACs again, replacing the Soekris with the Soncoz SGD1. Unlike the Soekris this DAC comes with two linear power supplies built in and is highly reagrded. Like the Soekris, the Soncoz did not impart that slight glassiness to the piano chords, but at the same time it did not sound as 'real' as the Soekris. It was a bit like switching from listening to a good turntable to listening to the same song in FM on a good tuner. The same song, it's all there, yet something almost undefinable has changed. Still with the Soncoz in play we had a listen to the last couple of tunes from 'We Get Requests' by Oscar Peterson Trio'. This sounded good. We then swapped the Soekris back in and played the same tracks again. Now I could not really hear any change, but Ollie reckoned it was a big difference. We then listened to 'The Last Time I Saw Richard' from Joni Mitchell's 'Blue' album on both DACs. Again I did not think there was any appreciable difference. Ollie thought it was risible that I could not hear a difference and mentioned a few specific things he had noticed such as the vibrato on Joni's voice being better resolved through the Soekris, and the piano sounding like an upright through the Soncoz but a concert grand through the Soekris. I find it difficult to hold the memory of the sound in my head during the interval of time while the DACs are switched out. I think if I had some way to compare by fast switching between them I would have more of a chance to pick up on any differences. But I think that does indicate that these were not huge differences but subtle. Of course subtle matters. But do bear in mind this was all sighted listening and volume was only matched by ear. Which brings me to the conclusion. If this was a dealer demo and I'd heard all three DACs with a view to taking one home, which one would I go for? I'd go for the Soekris. Not that you can get it from a dealer since it is not stock, Ollie advised that the stock version, with its switch mode supplies. was not as good as this modded one. But after several hours listening my gut instinct was that this was the DAC I preferred. Even though it is the most expensive by some margin, even before you swap the power supplies out. Personally, with retirement coming up, I don't think I will be splashing out on one. But it was very interesting to be able to do the comparison and to be able to have a go on the Neurochrome 686. My sincere thanks to Ollie for making it happen and for finding another Krell for me. "Ollie thought it was risible that I could not hear a difference and mentioned a few specific things he had noticed such as the vibrato on Joni's voice being better resolved through the Soekris, and the piano sounding like an upright through the Soncoz but a concert grand through the Soekris." It's a strange thing when you are sat listening with someone and they don't hear the same things, but it's all part of the fun. IMHO, the differences were pretty obvious between all 3 DACS. The Joni Mitchell track really highlighted how different the two DAC's sounded for me. The Piano shrank with the Soncoz and the soundstage seemed to flatten off. The depth just wasn't there and i would have placed the Topping above it in that respect....perhaps only that respect? Joni seemed to be 20 years younger too. The resonance of the piano's body didnt convey as well as with the Soekris IMO. That xylophone was a prime example of this. The xylophone seemed to take forever to decay on the Soekris as it floated in the ether. It had a more realistic sound to it....like it had mass. I must admit, we got a better sound of of my kit at Macca's than i do at home lol....it's frustrating not having the right space or speakers to hit the levels i know this gear will reach. The Soncoz is not a bad DAC, but it was very reminiscent of all the DACs i have tried and passed on. The Soekris is not like those DACs. It has textural qualities and the space in the soundstage sets it apart from almost anything else i have heard in the digital field. What did impress me today was the CD transport. I really liked it and the SQ was pretty much perfect. Bags of detail and thats probably the best CD sound i have heard. I understand why Macca is in no rush to move to file based audio If anyone is in the need for a transport, don't hesitate. I am considering one myself to go with the N15D It was a really enjoyable couple of hours and i thank Macca for his hospitality
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Post by antonio on Apr 23, 2021 1:25:39 GMT
Very nice write-up Macca, and from your impressions, it sounds like the Musician could be the perfect dac for you, going by what I've read, and of course our own Mr Firebottle's comments on his. Sorry, I know you don't want to spend more, same as me, but in a couple of years I'm sure a few will start to come on the 2nd hand market.
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