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Post by macca on Apr 23, 2021 6:51:48 GMT
next step is to get the new Krell KSA50S and DCB1 pre-amp back in the system, and then re-evaluate. If I still think I can do better with the DAC then I probably will.
We had a great sound with all 3 DACs but my gut instinct and a few specific differences were enough to make me seriously consider it.
It was great to have some really serious amplification back in the system in the shape of the Neurochrome/BT2. Being able to play at the sort of level that makes the music profound but without any break-up, hardness or loss of control was a bit of a treat. Especially on the Joni Mitchell tune which blew me away the on the first time.
You have that long piano intro and then, when she starts singing, it actually sent a shiver through me. I have had that album since I was about 19 years old, that's never happened before, although it is a superb and very intense album. Whilst I can see how the Neurochrome would be just too neutral for some tastes I think that experience shows that the emotion is in the music, not the equipment. All the equipment can do is get in the way of conveying it. The Soekris, Neurochrome, BT2 combo did not get in the way at all.
The Audiolab/Soekris DAC combo was as good a digital source as any of the mega-bucks efforts I have heard at shows. There was just nothing in the way of the music, the music just seemed to be an independent entity materialising at the far end of the room. It was a great advert for good old red book CD, I couldn't imagine even the most ardent of vinyl enthusiasts having anything to complain about. It really was pure, perfect sound.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 23, 2021 8:56:41 GMT
next step is to get the new Krell KSA50S and DCB1 pre-amp back in the system, and then re-evaluate. If I still think I can do better with the DAC then I probably will. We had a great sound with all 3 DACs but my gut instinct and a few specific differences were enough to make me seriously consider it. It was great to have some really serious amplification back in the system in the shape of the Neurochrome/BT2. Being able to play at the sort of level that makes the music profound but without any break-up, hardness or loss of control was a bit of a treat. Especially on the Joni Mitchell tune which blew me away the on the first time. You have that long piano intro and then, when she starts singing, it actually sent a shiver through me. I have had that album since I was about 19 years old, that's never happened before, although it is a superb and very intense album. Whilst I can see how the Neurochrome would be just too neutral for some tastes I think that experience shows that the emotion is in the music, not the equipment. All the equipment can do is get in the way of conveying it. The Soekris, Neurochrome, BT2 combo did not get in the way at all. The Audiolab/Soekris DAC combo was as good a digital source as any of the mega-bucks efforts I have heard at shows. There was just nothing in the way of the music, the music just seemed to be an independent entity materialising at the far end of the room. It was a great advert for good old red book CD, I couldn't imagine even the most ardent of vinyl enthusiasts having anything to complain about. It really was pure, perfect sound. I sincerely hope you can recreate or maybe even surpass what we managed to create yesterday. As you say, there was absolutely nothing that we heard that anyone could complain about. The old forum wisdom that you need vinyl and valves to create image depth etc, was again proved false. There was a distinct moment for me when i realised how good the sound was, and that was when the speakers just turned into ornaments. The sound, the image and music was not connected to them in any audible way. The music was like an apparition at the end of the room. It had scale, width and depth, but also a real 3D feel about it with the Soekris in play. With that chain, i wouldn't be looking for anything else. I felt the Topping did well with the depth too. Is the 686/BT2 to neutral? not imo. Like you, i believe the emotion is in the music, and the equipment's job is to get out of the way and allow you to hear that. I have found that the better the gear, the less the sound clings to the speakers. You are lucky to have a room that allows those JMLabs to breathe and in having that, you have the potential to probably unlock the performance in any bit of kit. The JMLabs are beautiful sounding speakers. I am feeling more motivated to convert a garage today. The knowledge of what could be achieved with this chain is now growing to a point where i am finding it difficult to see any sense in not doing it. |
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Post by macca on Apr 24, 2021 7:01:29 GMT
Room and speakers always the biggest bottleneck. A good listening room (or at least as good as I could get for the money I had at the time) was my only consideration when I bought the house. before that I'd moved 8 times in 8 years so had all sorts of rooms good and bad and so knew what I was after. I was looking for two years before I found one suitable.
You really should get that garage done, that would be excellent. Won't cost that much - and it would make a great listening room. Add value to your house too.
Happy to come down and help. Don't really have any construction skills but I can paint, knock in nails and fetch and carry.
You've already got electric power to it which saves a lot of aggro. I reckon you could be up and running for a grand, and them refine it as time goes on.
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 24, 2021 7:15:34 GMT
Room and speakers always the biggest bottleneck. A good listening room (or at least as good as I could get for the money I had at the time) was my only consideration when I bought the house. before that I'd moved 8 times in 8 years so had all sorts of rooms good and bad and so knew what I was after. I was looking for two years before I found one suitable. You really should get that garage done, that would be excellent. Won't cost that much - and it would make a great listening room. Add value to your house too. Happy to come down and help. Don't really have any construction skills but I can paint, knock in nails and fetch and carry. You've already got electric power to it which saves a lot of aggro. I reckon you could be up and running for a grand, and them refine it as time goes on. I appreciate the offer, however i think £1k may be a little optimisitic! I need to get the front bricked up and a door fitted. That may require digging the base out to make sure there is a foundation suitable to hold a front wall. Then i'd need to insulate the outside, add a waterproof membrane, then put some sort of outer layer on...maybe cladding. This should then avoid losing any space inside the garage. Next up would be damp proofing the concrete slab floor, and that may require digging out and insulating too, or maybe a subfloor to prevent cold spots and damp appearing on the floor. I suspect a subfloor to be cheaper. Then it would be electrics, which i do already have, but to feed a room properly i would need to upgrade the cable from the house. Unfortunately, thats a failry significant job and i'd have to get a modern Consumer unit too. I can do the electrics myself, but its still a few hundred quid. Then its roof insulation, plasterboarding, plastering, trims, decorating....In all likelihood its nearer £5-8k....and thats why it's not been done lol |
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Post by macca on Apr 24, 2021 8:05:08 GMT
Well I was thinking you don't worry about the cosmetics, so forget plastering, trims, decorating. That can be added over time. All you need to be up and running is a watertight, insulated building with sufficient power.
You can get that rubberised stuff laid over the concrete, I know that is not expensive as my mate did it in his back room where the floor was just quarry tiles laid straight onto the earth.
I admit I know next to nothing about these things. But I watch 'Homes Under The Hammer' and they do up these houses that are falling apart with damp, rotten floors and all sorts and they only spend 4 or 5 grand and that's to do a whole house with new kitchen, new bathroom, electrics, whole place plastered, new floors etc etc.
I'd get someone who is an expert and ask him how you could do it all as cheap as possible. I bet it would come in a lot less than £5k if you skip the purely cosmetic stuff and do the labour yourself. Okay I might be wrong but costs nothing to find out.
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 24, 2021 8:33:53 GMT
Well I was thinking you don't worry about the cosmetics, so forget plastering, trims, decorating. That can be added over time. All you need to be up and running is a watertight, insulated building with sufficient power. You can get that rubberised stuff laid over the concrete, I know that is not expensive as my mate did it in his back room where the floor was just quarry tiles laid straight onto the earth. I admit I know next to nothing about these things. But I watch 'Homes Under The Hammer' and they do up these houses that are falling apart with damp, rotten floors and all sorts and they only spend 4 or 5 grand and that's to do a whole house with new kitchen, new bathroom, electrics, whole place plastered, new floors etc etc. I'd get someone who is an expert and ask him how you could do it all as cheap as possible. I bet it would come in a lot less than £5k if you skip the purely cosmetic stuff and do the labour yourself. Okay I might be wrong but costs nothing to find out. If i could halve that amount, i'd have it done by christmas! |
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Post by macca on Apr 24, 2021 9:26:37 GMT
Do some research, worth the effort IMO. Okay so might start off you've got the bare plasterboard on the walls and some old rug on the floor or whatever, but it only needs to be a practical space to start with, not the tea room at the Ritz.
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 24, 2021 9:49:51 GMT
Do some research, worth the effort IMO. Okay so might start off you've got the bare plasterboard on the walls and some old rug on the floor or whatever, but it only needs to be a practical space to start with, not the tea room at the Ritz. I'm already looking mate. I'll get a quaote to do the door first, as i wanted to do that anyway as the draught off it is horrendous lol. Also, it'll mean i have to find somewhere else to do all my tinkering so i'll likely have to get a rather large shed...container or something. I am afraid it just cant be done cheap. I do agree though. In the long term it will be worth it as it would free up some much needed room in the house too. Makes sense. |
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Post by macca on Apr 26, 2021 15:57:24 GMT
New Krell KSA50S is up and running! It's cost me an arm and a leg to get another one but it was worth it. Thanks again Ollie!  |
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 26, 2021 16:03:55 GMT
New Krell KSA50S is up and running! It's cost me an arm and a leg to get another one but it was worth it. Thanks again Ollie! Glad to have been able to help  How is it sounding? I know you'll be getting reaquainted with it, but i am curious to know how the DCB1/Krell stacks upagainst the BT2/686 combo. |
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Post by macca on Apr 26, 2021 16:35:58 GMT
I'll have to play some of the albums we listened to the other day and report back. My guess is it is pretty much on a par with the 686.
Put it this way, if I already had a 686 I wouldn't have been looking for another Krell 50S. I thought the 686 was completely satisfactory in every respect.
I went in to the pro shop at lunchtime to get the DCB1 back to use with the Krell. The engineer comes out of his little room and says 'I've got bad news for you.'
I thought he'd blown it up or lost it or dropped something on it and smashed it or something. But he produces it and it looks fine.
Then the owner comes out and asks me 'How much did you pay for this?' In truth I don't remember but it wasn't a lot. He says 'It doesn't amplify! It's just a connection box with a volume pot!'
I told him I knew that, you're getting 2 volts out of the DAC you don't need to amplify it again. They couldn't get their heads around the idea of a zero-gain active pre-amp at all. They thought I was some hi-fi mug punter who'd been ripped off.
I said 'This was designed by Nelson Pass you know.'
'Never heard of him.'
'Designed for Adcom? Threshold? Pass Labs?'
'Never heard of them.'
Gotta love the pro boys.
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 26, 2021 16:45:41 GMT
I'll have to play some of the albums we listened to the other day and report back. My guess is it is pretty much on a par with the 686. Put it this way, if I already had a 686 I wouldn't have been looking for another Krell 50S. I thought the 686 was completely satisfactory in every respect. I went in to the pro shop at lunchtime to get the DCB1 back to use with the Krell. The engineer comes out of his little room and says 'I've got bad news for you.' I thought he'd blown it up or lost it or dropped something on it and smashed it or something. But he produces it and it looks fine. Then the owner comes out and asks me 'How much did you pay for this?' In truth I don't remember but it wasn't a lot. He says 'It doesn't amplify! It's just a connection box with a volume pot!' I told him I knew that, you're getting 2 volts out of the DAC you don't need to amplify it again. They couldn't get their heads around the idea of a zero-gain active pre-amp at all. They thought I was some hi-fi mug punter who'd been ripped off. I said 'This was designed by Nelson Pass you know.' 'Never heard of him.' 'Designed for Adcom? Threshold? Pass Labs?' 'Never heard of them.' Gotta love the pro boys. lol...good grief! fancy not knowing who 'Papa' is! Did they say what was wrong with the DCB1? |
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Post by macca on Apr 26, 2021 16:51:08 GMT
well that's not good, seem to have some distortion start after an hour or so. Don't know what is at fault. Will have to have a mess about tomorrow when I'm off work.
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 26, 2021 16:58:37 GMT
well that's not good, seem to have some distortion start after an hour or so. Don't know what is at fault. Will have to have a mess about tomorrow when I'm off work. NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO |
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Post by macca on Apr 26, 2021 17:03:53 GMT
Could be the DCB1. Mind you I thought that last time.
I'll swap in another power amp tomorrow and see.
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 26, 2021 17:07:35 GMT
Could be the DCB1. Mind you I thought that last time. I'll swap in another power amp tomorrow and see. I listened to that amp (at his place) with my own lug holes for a good 30-45 minutes, just to make sure it got warm. It was spot on. So spot on i tried to buy the other one he had. Stick a different preamp on it? |
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Post by macca on Apr 26, 2021 17:16:32 GMT
I'll do some fault-finding tomorrow when I'm fresh and report back.
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 26, 2021 19:41:49 GMT
Arrived earlier today. Great bit of vintage 70s smoooooooth.  |
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Post by macca on Apr 27, 2021 7:11:51 GMT
All his albums are worth getting. Got them all on a mix of vinyl and CD. This is the essential one though:  |
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Post by macca on Apr 27, 2021 7:18:52 GMT
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 27, 2021 8:34:43 GMT
All his albums are worth getting. Got them all on a mix of vinyl and CD. This is the essential one though: I'll snap it up mate. |
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Post by macca on Apr 27, 2021 10:36:37 GMT
Tried the Krell using a Soncoz DAC as a pre-amp. Played for maybe 10 minutes okay then left channel starts intermittently cutting out, then both channels cut out completely after 30 minutes or so.
Not the same issue I had yesterday when there was no issues with cutting out but there was distortion on both channels. Now there's no distortion but cutting out instead. Weird. But clearly there is something not right about it.
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 27, 2021 10:57:11 GMT
Tried the Krell using a Soncoz DAC as a pre-amp. Played for maybe 10 minutes okay then left channel starts intermittently cutting out, then both channels cut out completely after 30 minutes or so. Not the same issue I had yesterday when there was no issues with cutting out but there was distortion on both channels. Now there's no distortion but cutting out instead. Weird. But clearly there is something not right about it. No way.........I can't believe it. 😫 |
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Post by firebottle on Apr 27, 2021 12:01:29 GMT
You have an alternative aural universe there Macca.
Something can't be right, the Krell I looked at for you played at high output power for a couple of hours here.
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 27, 2021 12:31:32 GMT
You have an alternative aural universe there Macca. Something can't be right, the Krell I looked at for you played at high output power for a couple of hours here. There is something not right somewhere. To have one fail is a shame, to have two is unlikely. Can we get them here for a couple of weeks to listen to them and see what's up? |
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Post by macca on Apr 27, 2021 14:12:58 GMT
Tried different speaker cable as I'm running out of ideas, still that distortion, almost right from the off, then I lose one channel and then both channels.
I noticed for a long time one of the terminals on the speakers is a bit dodgy, noticed that before but never actually been an issue, but that does seem to be partly to blame for the cutting out on that channel, but doesn't explain it on the other.
So swap in different speakers. So far (10 minutes in) no distortion, no cutting out. I'll let it play see what happens.
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Post by macca on Apr 27, 2021 15:08:39 GMT
Nope, even with different speakers that distortion starts kicking in. Took longer this time but that does seem to vary.
Didn't have any of these issues with the £100 NAD off of eBay lol.
Has to be a fault with the amp, if it was anything else like a dodgy cable or dodgy connection it would show itself from the off, not after half an hour. Seems like once the circuit warms through, that's when it starts.
Oh well. Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you.
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 27, 2021 15:35:03 GMT
Nope, even with different speakers that distortion starts kicking in. Took longer this time but that does seem to vary. Didn't have any of these issues with the £100 NAD off of eBay lol. Has to be a fault with the amp, if it was anything else like a dodgy cable or dodgy connection it would show itself from the off, not after half an hour. Seems like once the circuit warms through, that's when it starts. Oh well. Sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you. I just can't believe it. We listenened to it for a good 40 minutes. It was bloody loud too. Definitly got warm, i checked. It was cared for better than my kids on the way back from wales and it sat in the garage unmoved until i brought it up to you. Something isn't making sense. We managed a good 4 hours with the 686 and the BT2. Not a single issue. Macca, i think it's time to admit defeat with the Krell stuff. I messaged the guy in Wales and he said he's had that amp on the floor, in the same spot i saw it for at least 10 years. He hadn't used it since he bought the Krell80 about 4-5 years ago and when we listened to it, it was superb. As i have said, i tried to buy the other one off him too, but he wasnt having any of it. I just can't believe it. I want them in my system to see for myself. Can we do that? Alternativley, there are a few options here: 1 - Try and make 1 good amp out of the two. 2 - Get that pro shop to repair them both then sell one to recoup some dosh 3 - Sell the KSA50's as spares or repair and sell the KSA100 and buy a 686. There is also a Benchmark available for about £2k, which you should easily be able to raise from the sale of all three Krells. |
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Post by Bigman80 on Apr 27, 2021 15:50:09 GMT
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Post by macca on Apr 27, 2021 16:33:27 GMT
We'll try them in your system at some point, see what happens then.
I've got loads of power amps here, don't have problems with any of them except these two KSA50S.
That does imply that it's nothing I'm doing.
If it sat unused for 10 years then all the capacitors would need to reform, so maybe once reformed one goes bad. It was fine here for over an hour the first time I used it. No problems at all.
I'll go back to using the NAD for the time being. You had a listen to that and it's good, it's just not the very best possible.
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