Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,401
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 10, 2020 17:32:18 GMT
What if I told you that regardless of how much money you throw at partnering equipment, you'd NEVER get ANY set of speakers to sound anywhere near what they were meant to sound like, or close to what they are capable of? Well an interesting and revelatory conversation took place today, and today I listened. You see, this gentleman (Darryl or Daz as I call him) is a professional studio engineer and all round sound expert. And no, he doesn't “deal” with “HiFi people” “There is a limit to what you can do in any space” he said, after I informed him of my latest trials and tribulations. “you could still cause boom with tiny bookshelf speakers IF you gave them enough volume” he said, after I told him about the Quadrals and Kef Q1's In essence we're all doomed. Daz has been in the recording world for about 30 years. He's not bigtime or working for Adele or anyone you'd have heard of, unless you were mad into super obscure punk. He was recently hired to remaster an entire back catalogue of a band called Puke or Vomit or bile? I can't remember their name, but they were surprisingly large in the States and Germany he said. Not your usual punk lookalike, he's now pretty thin on top, put some “comfort weight on” and plays a lot of Fleetwood Mac on Bass. This is how I met Daz. He was a bass player in a studio session I did a long time back and as he was from Wolverhampton too, we did a bit of work together. He stayed in Live music, I found full time work. I bumped into him at the local Co-OP....how rock and roll ay! We exchanged numbers as he wants to record some mellow material and asked if I would be up for it after Covid. It won't happen, but I gave him a call today and we caught up. About two minutes into telling him about my 880 speakers and excitable floor woes, he dropped some knowledge. Daz - “You do know that a 100hz bass note is about 3m long, don't you?” OL – No? Daz – How big is the room? OL – about 3.5m - 4m in length I can now hear him clicking his laptop and then he starts laughing down the phone  Daz – F#ck me, you will NEVER solve that riddle with those! OL – Why? He did explain about the speed of sound and the way they reflect and cause huge humps and dips in the frequency band, but it escaped my ability to remember it all. Daz – To get the kind of presence you want, you'd need a minimum of 1m deep bass traps in the corners behind those speakers, you'd need bass traps on every 90deg angle and then first reflection points need absorption and dispersion panels about 1m wide....minimum.......Does the room have alcoves? OL- Yes...... Daz – Fucking hell!!!!! (uncontrollable laughter ensued) You'd end up with them in your lap! “Oli, what you need Mucca, is a pair of bloody good earphones!” I daren't tell him about the Piano in the room...... Obviously, I wanted to know more. I asked about almost any idea I could and to be fair to him, he had an answer for everything. On the Yamaha NS1000M he said I had made a wiser choice in picking a sealed cab design than any ported speakers, but still feels the room will contribute about 40-70% of what I actually hear. Daz – You will be listening to the room rather than the speaker no matter what you do in a space that small. All you can do it pull the % down. I knew this was the case, but what never twigged was the fact that no matter what I do, the shape rather than the size of the room alone is going to forever hold me back. He gave me some facts about soundwaves, their length and speed etc, reverb time in the room and even with eq, he stated it was still not possible to dial the room out of the equation. The room having bricks, mortar and gypsum on ones side and gypsum and timer the other, will cause leakage on one side of the room and worse reflections from the other. Alcoves, bay windows....it went on. Honestly, I was losing the will to live. I was losing the will to live. I think he knew too. He asked how much time and effort I had sunk into my system. “Lots” I replied. Daz – OK, whatever you have sunk into it financially and from a time perspective, times that by 8 and thats how much you should now spend on the room it's in, IF you want to be able to actually hear what it does. Or look at it the other way. If you'd spent 20% on the system and 80% on the room...you would be knocking peoples socks off with a system that cost very little. Buy some speakers and stop spending your time and money on chasing something you can't obtain.....nor can anyone else who listens in a domestic environment. Wow. Soul destroying but enlightening at the same time. Think I will stick to my plan of finding some listenable speakers, a R2R DAC and then pack it in. what's obvious now is that as the system went up in quality, the room needed to go up at the same rate. The glass ceiling is obviously low.....very low.
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Post by stevew on Nov 10, 2020 17:50:22 GMT
The advert that appeared below your post did cheer me up though.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2020 18:30:56 GMT
I think you need to know when to Stop, before the hobby becomes an obsession.
As I recently said, stop chasing musical nirvana, and get a system that you enjoy. It is never going to be perfect, unless you build a dedicated room.
Did you ask him about cables?
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Post by jimbo on Nov 10, 2020 18:34:08 GMT
Interesting....room acoustics such massive influence. Just start adding more!
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Post by sq225917 on Nov 10, 2020 18:45:37 GMT
Yup, the room is the ultimate limit, buy accordingly.
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,401
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 10, 2020 18:58:52 GMT
I think you need to know when to Stop, before the hobby becomes an obsession. As I recently said, stop chasing musical nirvana, and get a system that you enjoy. It is never going to be perfect, unless you build a dedicated room. Did you ask him about cables? We talked about guitar cables....do they count? |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,401
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 10, 2020 18:59:21 GMT
The advert that appeared below your post did cheer me up though. Maybe I should turn adblock off 🤣 |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2020 19:07:05 GMT
I am more worried about Steve's browsing history, as the adverts are usually linked to your online activity.  |
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Post by stevew on Nov 10, 2020 19:17:39 GMT
I am more worried about Steve's browsing history, as the adverts are usually linked to your online activity. Have no concern.. lol.. I’m a happy chappie. Just look at that ad. |
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Post by macca on Nov 10, 2020 20:16:03 GMT
Yup, the room is the ultimate limit, buy accordingly. Buy your house accordingly... You considered a house move Ollie?  |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,401
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 10, 2020 20:26:46 GMT
Yup, the room is the ultimate limit, buy accordingly. Buy your house accordingly... You considered a house move Ollie? Yes I have..... |
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Post by macca on Nov 10, 2020 20:56:16 GMT
Me too, shame my house is worth F#ck-all.
There's always the lottery I suppose.
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Post by stevew on Nov 11, 2020 6:51:32 GMT
Interesting....room acoustics such massive influence. Just start adding more! It’s one of the reasons I can’t see me switching from Lyngdorf. The correction system on my TDAI 2200 (Room Perfect) sorts out the fact that my speakers are too close to the wall etc Occasionally I switch it off just to hear the difference and everything just goes out of focus. It won’t make up for physics .. the size of the P3ESR’s will always limit bass response. It probably wouldn’t help Oliver with his reactive floor-,but it does help to temper the dynamics inflicted by the room. |
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,401
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2020 7:28:44 GMT
Me too, shame my house is worth F#ck-all. There's always the lottery I suppose. The price of houses at the minute is ridiculous. Moving isn't an option as the wife wants to pay off the remaining mortgage, so getting a bigger one isn't gonna happen....neither is that extension at the minute. Its all about priorities and in all honesty I'd prefer the house to be paid off and know there will always be a roof over the family's heads if something happens to me. I'll address the room, with a purpose built room when this is done. The Yammies will be here Sunday and unless they sound abysmal, that's what will stay until either the mortgage is paid off or I drop lucky like I did with the 880s. |
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2020 8:18:49 GMT
Very sensible. Once you've paid your house off they can't touch you.
I notice that the average house price where you are is £200K and where I am only £150K - quite a big difference when we are only 50 miles apart.
You can still buy a house round here for under £60K even though we are only 80 minutes on the train from central London where a similar house would cost around 1 million.
Nuts.
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 11, 2020 9:31:07 GMT
Glass ceiling, constrained by the room?
Well, OK.
But I've had dozens, probably, of different speakers in my current music room. They all sound different from each other, and not by a small amount.
So while room size and shape is certainly a constraint, it equally certainly doesn't totally dominate what I hear, not by a long shot.
So I'd say that the glass ceiling is quite high and there is lots to be gained (and lost) by the range of hifi equipment choices available to us.
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Post by jandl100 on Nov 11, 2020 9:35:50 GMT
... damn, all I see are boring adverts about ebay, hifi, computers and, for some obscure reason, weight lifting equipment.  Although there was an entertaining period when young ladies in scanty underwear were among those present.  |
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Bigman80
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Posts: 16,401
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2020 9:43:16 GMT
Very sensible. Once you've paid your house off they can't touch you. I notice that the average house price where you are is £200K and where I am only £150K - quite a big difference when we are only 50 miles apart. You can still buy a house round here for under £60K even though we are only 80 minutes on the train from central London where a similar house would cost around 1 million. Nuts. It's crazy round here. We bought our house in 2010 for around £110K A smaller house than ours with less land etc, just round the corner from us, maybe 20 meters away just sold for £165k It's nice our house is worth at least £50k more than when we bought it but to move on from here would cost at least £250k...just to have a better space for hifi lol Not happening |
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Post by jimbo on Nov 11, 2020 11:30:14 GMT
So you need nearly another 100k to upgrade your system |
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Post by stevew on Nov 11, 2020 11:51:53 GMT
... damn, all I see are boring adverts about ebay, hifi, computers and, for some obscure reason, weight lifting equipment. Although there was an entertaining period when young ladies in scanty underwear were among those present. I’m told it’d a reflection of ones browsing habits. For once I’m doing something right. No idea what that is.. |
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Post by stevew on Nov 11, 2020 12:20:27 GMT
Just in case anyone needs cheering up again  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2020 12:21:00 GMT
Very sensible. Once you've paid your house off they can't touch you. I notice that the average house price where you are is £200K and where I am only £150K - quite a big difference when we are only 50 miles apart. You can still buy a house round here for under £60K even though we are only 80 minutes on the train from central London where a similar house would cost around 1 million. Nuts. It's crazy round here. We bought our house in 2010 for around £110K A smaller house than ours with less land etc, just round the corner from us, maybe 20 meters away just sold for £165k It's nice our house is worth at least £50k more than when we bought it but to move on from here would cost at least £250k...just to have a better space for hifi lol Not happening No idea what my house is worth now. If I change my house, I want one with less land.  I have a choice of listening rooms I could use, but each is a compromise. One has no windows, one has all my mancave stuff in, and another is directly above my daughters bedroom, and serves as one of the guest bedrooms. Two of the rooms have suspended wooden floors. My retirement house is also going to have a compromised listening space, but I am thinking of building a log cabin to use as a home cinema / Hifi space, but I have to get to retirement first. |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,401
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2020 12:36:59 GMT
So you need nearly another 100k to upgrade your system Yes, which if i apply Daz's theory of "spend 8x the value of the system on the room" to my siuation: The system being worth about £10K, means i need to spend £80k to get anywhere near the best from it. Doesn't seem so far removed from what he was saying, does it! |
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2020 12:48:47 GMT
I think Daz is overstating the case substantially.
There's only two real problems with your room:
1) suspended floor
2) too small for speakers with a certain bass alignment.
Neither problem needs a hundred grand spending on it to resolve.
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Bigman80
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Posts: 16,401
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2020 12:54:31 GMT
I think Daz is overstating the case substantially. There's only two real problems with your room: 1) suspended floor 2) too small for speakers with a certain bass alignment. Neither problem needs a hundred grand spending on it to resolve. Yes, but you have to take that into context with the setup i was talking to him about. I was talking about the 880's and in my mind, i can see he totally right. Do i need to spend £80k to accomodate the NS1000M? No, i definitly dont think so. Remember £4k, of that £10K total was the speakers price when new. My system is worth £7K now, so thats about £56k need spending on the room. seriously, it makes a lot of sense as acoustice are expensive. Obviously, it could be done for far less money but would be very ugly. Thats pretty much what he adds up for a "designer" room. Also, we are talking in studio terms of isolation, where the room is pretty much dead. We dont want that in a listening room. The principle is what he was getting at i suspect |
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2020 13:05:10 GMT
In principle he may be right, in practice not so much. There's just no need to treat the F#ck out of the room to get a good sound. And basing the cost of room treatment on the cost of the system makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The room issues will be the same regardless of whether it is an Audionote flagship system or a Richer Sounds special.
Those MS were obviously designed for a large room in terms of their bass alignment. You could have fixed that with DSP, you chose not to, you've not said why - unless I missed that?
On the whole I reckon the NS1000 will be a better speaker anyway, at least in terms of clarity, so nothing is lost except maybe an octave of low bass. That's not so bad. And you can always add a sub - with DSP! - further down the line.
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Post by electronumpty on Nov 11, 2020 13:27:49 GMT
I reckon you just need to clean your ears mate. Amazing what a cotton bud upgrade can do...😉
Hope the yammies work for you.
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,401
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2020 13:28:07 GMT
In principle he may be right, in practice not so much. There's just no need to treat the F#ck out of the room to get a good sound. And basing the cost of room treatment on the cost of the system makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The room issues will be the same regardless of whether it is an Audionote flagship system or a Richer Sounds special. Those MS were obviously designed for a large room in terms of their bass alignment. You could have fixed that with DSP, you chose not to, you've not said why - unless I missed that? On the whole I reckon the NS1000 will be a better speaker anyway, at least in terms of clarity, so nothing is lost except maybe an octave of low bass. That's not so bad. And you can always add a sub - with DSP! - further down the line. Well i viewd in in the same way as when someone says "theres more to be had" as in its unquantifiable and i suppose the easiest way tho give an easily understandable ration ids like that. However, no, i dont think £56k is required lol DSP...... 1) i dont understand it 2) why have a speaker of that size/quality/grandeur and only use 50% of it's capability? 3) I didn't think it would work. Seriously macca, it was like huge waves of bass were washing over you. It's unlike any experience i have had anywhere. Angus visited and i wish he were a member as he would tell you what i am saying now....It was like you were being drowned in a wave of sound and you could feel it washing around you like nothing else. It was bonkers... |
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Post by macca on Nov 11, 2020 13:39:09 GMT
Fair enough, I respect your choices just wondered as to the reasons.
When these yammies showing up then?
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,401
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Post by Bigman80 on Nov 11, 2020 14:24:19 GMT
Fair enough, I respect your choices just wondered as to the reasons. When these yammies showing up then? They will be here Sunday! But need a bit of therapy to be able to use them. Change of speaker terminals etc |
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