Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 9, 2020 22:28:23 GMT
I think it's important to recognize what this statement is and not take it in any personal way.....
The fact AK has gone to the trouble of assassinating the needle drops has surprised me very little. They were universally accepted by most forum members, especially here, as a genuine way to sample the Houdini from a distance, and the Houdini did not live up to his hype IMO..
We never attacked the Houdini here, rather the nonsensical way in which it was sold at varying degrees of cost depending on how "influential" you were deemed to be. The other gripe was the bullshit reviews being copied and pasted around all the forums claiming unanimous Superiority over a tried and tested method that has been in place for God knows how many years?!
We have it fair rope to hang with and IMO the samples CageyH did were really good...I also had some spectacular ones sent to me, and they were really impressive in terms of SQ, and yet the same result prevailed. Blaming the needle drops is just bollocks....the same bollocks that it could be broken because the result isnt in its favour.
It's reinventing, or attempting to reinvent the wheel in my opinion, and I won't say it doesn't work as I haven't heard it first hand, but I'll just say that from the samples I heard, I was 80% in favour of the needle drops without the Houdini. The other 20% were too hard to call, which again isn't a great advert in itself.
If that's not what AK wants to hear, then that's fair enough but attacking the forums and the members of forums will only hurt him...
Anyway, good luck to him. He's done well out of FUNK and probably will continue to do so. Good on him.
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Post by electronumpty on Oct 9, 2020 22:43:54 GMT
Is he talking about Catford London? It's where I live so when all this socially distance thing is over I might take him up on the offer.
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 9, 2020 22:50:01 GMT
His trying to claim that digital cant convey the vinyl experience is nonsense. Out of my 900+ modern albums only one of them was recorded, mixed and mastered on analogue and cut without a digital delay on the cutting head.
And its far from the best record I have.
Almost every piece of vinyl since the 80's has been through at least one digital conversion process. I bet there hasn't been a dozen albums since then that are 100% analogue.
How many recorded to tape and DMM or direct cut albums are there? I can name three or four tops.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2020 6:41:18 GMT
I think it's important to recognize what this statement is and not take it in any personal way..... The fact AK has gone to the trouble of assassinating the needle drops has surprised me very little. They were universally accepted by most forum members, especially here, as a genuine way to sample the Houdini from a distance, and the Houdini did not live up to his hype IMO.. We never attacked the Houdini here, rather the nonsensical way in which it was sold at varying degrees of cost depending on how "influential" you were deemed to be. The other gripe was the bullshit reviews being copied and pasted around all the forums claiming unanimous Superiority over a tried and tested method that has been in place for God knows how many years?! We have it fair rope to hang with and IMO the samples CageyH did were really good...I also had some spectacular ones sent to me, and they were really impressive in terms of SQ, and yet the same result prevailed. Blaming the needle drops is just bollocks....the same bollocks that it could be broken because the result isnt in its favour. It's reinventing, or attempting to reinvent the wheel in my opinion, and I won't say it doesn't work as I haven't heard it first hand, but I'll just say that from the samples I heard, I was 80% in favour of the needle drops without the Houdini. The other 20% were too hard to call, which again isn't a great advert in itself. If that's not what AK wants to hear, then that's fair enough but attacking the forums and the members of forums will only hurt him... Anyway, good luck to him. He's done well out of FUNK and probably will continue to do so. Good on him. I still think you need to listen to the real thing before you take a decision. The Digital files only give you a taste of what you get. Obviously if you are happy with how your system sounds, then I can see why you would not want one. Sure, it is expensive, but it does work in a similar way to a cable/cartridge upgrade in my experience (once a suitable cartridge has been fitted). I still have mine. If I did not think it was worth the money, I would have sent it back. |
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Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,407
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 10, 2020 6:51:17 GMT
I think it's important to recognize what this statement is and not take it in any personal way..... The fact AK has gone to the trouble of assassinating the needle drops has surprised me very little. They were universally accepted by most forum members, especially here, as a genuine way to sample the Houdini from a distance, and the Houdini did not live up to his hype IMO.. We never attacked the Houdini here, rather the nonsensical way in which it was sold at varying degrees of cost depending on how "influential" you were deemed to be. The other gripe was the bullshit reviews being copied and pasted around all the forums claiming unanimous Superiority over a tried and tested method that has been in place for God knows how many years?! We have it fair rope to hang with and IMO the samples CageyH did were really good...I also had some spectacular ones sent to me, and they were really impressive in terms of SQ, and yet the same result prevailed. Blaming the needle drops is just bollocks....the same bollocks that it could be broken because the result isnt in its favour. It's reinventing, or attempting to reinvent the wheel in my opinion, and I won't say it doesn't work as I haven't heard it first hand, but I'll just say that from the samples I heard, I was 80% in favour of the needle drops without the Houdini. The other 20% were too hard to call, which again isn't a great advert in itself. If that's not what AK wants to hear, then that's fair enough but attacking the forums and the members of forums will only hurt him... Anyway, good luck to him. He's done well out of FUNK and probably will continue to do so. Good on him. I still think you need to listen to the real thing before you take a decision. The Digital files only give you a taste of what you get. Obviously if you are happy with how your system sounds, then I can see why you would not want one. Sure, it is expensive, but it does work in a similar way to a cable/cartridge upgrade in my experience (once a suitable cartridge has been fitted). I still have mine. If I did not think it was worth the money, I would have sent it back. I agree, and wouldn't draw any final conclusion without doing so but I had rather hoped the Houdini would shine via the needle drops. Not to worry...I'm sure I'll hear one. |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 10, 2020 7:07:08 GMT
If decoupling the arm and cartridge had been thought a significant benefit it would have been done years ago. And who is to say it is a benefit if your tonearm is soundly engineered and does not impart any negative influence on the sound why should you try and decouple it from the cartridge. You could go further and say why not decouple the tonearm from the turntable or decouple the platter from the bearing and so forth. All you are doing by using a device to decouple the cartridge from the turntable is to introduce another material that will have an influence on the sound in a different way and if this sound is better than the sound you had before then you may think it is worth it. However changing your tonearm or cartridge to something better will probably have a much more beneficial influence on the sound quality. And it is not decoupling the cartridge and tonearm either because they are still mechanically connected but now with a different material! The problem is as with all links in the chain from the plug to the speaker cone every material and design will change the sound you hear depending on how it is designed and what it is made of. Adding a lump of blutak to the top of your cartridge headshell will make it sound different and "damp" it. I dont see everyone rushing out and doing that because it looks crap costs nothing and has not been marketed as an "Audifool" upgrade even though in some cases it can actually make your cartridge / headshell / tonearm sound better!  |
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Post by karma67 on Oct 10, 2020 7:49:06 GMT
I think it's important to recognize what this statement is and not take it in any personal way..... The fact AK has gone to the trouble of assassinating the needle drops has surprised me very little. They were universally accepted by most forum members, especially here, as a genuine way to sample the Houdini from a distance, and the Houdini did not live up to his hype IMO.. We never attacked the Houdini here, rather the nonsensical way in which it was sold at varying degrees of cost depending on how "influential" you were deemed to be. The other gripe was the bullshit reviews being copied and pasted around all the forums claiming unanimous Superiority over a tried and tested method that has been in place for God knows how many years?! We have it fair rope to hang with and IMO the samples CageyH did were really good...I also had some spectacular ones sent to me, and they were really impressive in terms of SQ, and yet the same result prevailed. Blaming the needle drops is just bollocks....the same bollocks that it could be broken because the result isnt in its favour. It's reinventing, or attempting to reinvent the wheel in my opinion, and I won't say it doesn't work as I haven't heard it first hand, but I'll just say that from the samples I heard, I was 80% in favour of the needle drops without the Houdini. The other 20% were too hard to call, which again isn't a great advert in itself. If that's not what AK wants to hear, then that's fair enough but attacking the forums and the members of forums will only hurt him... Anyway, good luck to him. He's done well out of FUNK and probably will continue to do so. Good on him. I still think you need to listen to the real thing before you take a decision. The Digital files only give you a taste of what you get. Obviously if you are happy with how your system sounds, then I can see why you would not want one. Sure, it is expensive, but it does work in a similar way to a cable/cartridge upgrade in my experience (once a suitable cartridge has been fitted). I still have mine. If I did not think it was worth the money, I would have sent it back. i thought it was broken? or was that another goal post move? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2020 8:14:55 GMT
I still think you need to listen to the real thing before you take a decision. The Digital files only give you a taste of what you get. Obviously if you are happy with how your system sounds, then I can see why you would not want one. Sure, it is expensive, but it does work in a similar way to a cable/cartridge upgrade in my experience (once a suitable cartridge has been fitted). I still have mine. If I did not think it was worth the money, I would have sent it back. i thought it was broken? or was that another goal post move? Not broken, but does not benefit a 25g cartridge. Something lighter, and more normal and I can hear a clear improvement. It will be going back for a check up though, as AK has requested I send it back for him to have a look at. This will be a good opportunity to see if I miss it, or not. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2020 8:49:06 GMT
Does this sound “broken” - link
I think the simple explanation is that the “fat boy 103” being 4 times heavier than the EPC-U205 I used for this clip above was too heavy for the decoupling effect to work. I would love to try this on a standard SL1200 arm, but I sold that as my FX1200 is superior. However, I think it would be close between a standard at prom with Houdini and my FX1200 without, and maybe with a Houdini. The answer your that I am never likely to know, but I am intrigued. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2020 11:27:16 GMT
If decoupling the arm and cartridge had been thought a significant benefit it would have been done years ago. And who is to say it is a benefit if your tonearm is soundly engineered and does not impart any negative influence on the sound why should you try and decouple it from the cartridge. You could go further and say why not decouple the tonearm from the turntable or decouple the platter from the bearing and so forth. All you are doing by using a device to decouple the cartridge from the turntable is to introduce another material that will have an influence on the sound in a different way and if this sound is better than the sound you had before then you may think it is worth it. However changing your tonearm or cartridge to something better will probably have a much more beneficial influence on the sound quality. And it is not decoupling the cartridge and tonearm either because they are still mechanically connected but now with a different material! The problem is as with all links in the chain from the plug to the speaker cone every material and design will change the sound you hear depending on how it is designed and what it is made of. Adding a lump of blutak to the top of your cartridge headshell will make it sound different and "damp" it. I dont see everyone rushing out and doing that because it looks crap costs nothing and has not been marketed as an "Audifool" upgrade even though in some cases it can actually make your cartridge / headshell / tonearm sound better! The cartridge man isolator has been around quite a few years. £100 for two small stainless plates and a bit of foam. I have one, as it was fitted to my music maker I bought second hand. The use of the word “probably” in your second paragraph is interesting as it shows there may be doubt in your statement. You may well get the same benefit with a new tone arm or cartridge, but at what cost? Hopefully one day you will get to hear one, and then you can judge for yourself. Some people will like it, others won’t. We are all different. |
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Post by jimbo on Oct 10, 2020 11:44:22 GMT
Yep would need to try one before discounting its efficacy. As with all things hifi it is all down to personal subjective impressions. You may gain in some areas but at a loss in others. We tend to ignore the negative effects and highlight the positive.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2020 11:55:21 GMT
The negative side for me is as follows.
1. It’s £300 but some people were offered it at £105. That was a big mistake in my opinion.
2. It does not work with all my cartridges, it I may try the “fat boy” again, as some bias adjustment may change things to avoid the blurring mid range I had before.
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Post by myles on Oct 10, 2020 11:58:22 GMT
Soooo, if a hi Res digital file cannot demonstrate everything positive about the Houdini, that users are hearing, then that must mean digital playback doesn't get anywhere near reproducing the music faithfully. Aaarrrggghhhh my head!!!
Can someone tell he what it is about the performance of the Houdini that can be heard but not recorded? Is it like a vampire looking in a mirror?
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Post by sq225917 on Oct 10, 2020 12:26:29 GMT
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Post by macca on Oct 10, 2020 12:45:23 GMT
Soooo, if a hi Res digital file cannot demonstrate everything positive about the Houdini, that users are hearing, of course it can, 16/44.1 is more than enough to capture the waveform exactly. The only issue would be the limitations of whatever you are listening to the needledrop on. And the lack of added reverb that you get from having the speakers in the same room as the turntable. But the first shouldn't be an issue unless it is woefully inadequate and with the second, although the sound will not be as 'good' without the added reverb, it won't hinder any differences from being shown up. Although Funk seem to be arguing from the 'analogue purity' angle, which is just bollocks. I think it does make a difference/ improvement that is subtle, but not that hard to hear even on crappy headphones fed from a laptop. It seems that the waters have got muddied with the 25 gramme cartridge being used. Everyone who has listened has heard the difference, it's just that some prefer the sound without. If there was any issue with a digital copy not being authentic to the original those differences would not show up and instead of people saying they prefer A or B, they'd be saying 'They both sound the same to me, mate.' |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2020 13:28:54 GMT
I think it quite simply boils down to if you like the presentation of a Houdini equipped deck more, or not.
It certainly is not necessary to enjoy music.
Anyway, I am going to retry the fat boy, and I then I will try and leave this thread alone to die a peaceful death....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2020 14:20:00 GMT
Ok, stupid question time.
Should I set the bias weight = VTF?
I have always traditionally set it about 0.5g lower and it seems to have worked.
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Post by myles on Oct 10, 2020 14:46:14 GMT
Soooo, if a hi Res digital file cannot demonstrate everything positive about the Houdini, that users are hearing, of course it can, 16/44.1 is more than enough to capture the waveform exactly. The only issue would be the limitations of whatever you are listening to the needledrop on. And the lack of added reverb that you get from having the speakers in the same room as the turntable. But the first shouldn't be an issue unless it is woefully inadequate and with the second, although the sound will not be as 'good' without the added reverb, it won't hinder any differences from being shown up. Although Funk seem to be arguing from the 'analogue purity' angle, which is just bollocks. I think it does make a difference/ improvement that is subtle, but not that hard to hear even on crappy headphones fed from a laptop. It seems that the waters have got muddied with the 25 gramme cartridge being used. Everyone who has listened has heard the difference, it's just that some prefer the sound without. If there was any issue with a digital copy not being authentic to the original those differences would not show up and instead of people saying they prefer A or B, they'd be saying 'They both sound the same to me, mate.' Exactly what I'm trying to say. It stinks of an excuse to ensure that the multitude can't hear the 'difference' without having to shell out £300. I know how good digital can sound so I don't get it. Thinking about reverb, if you wanted to do it right, get the player set up to get the best presentation then re-play with the speakers disconnected. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2020 16:05:58 GMT
Ok, stupid question time. Should I set the bias weight = VTF? I have always traditionally set it about 0.5g lower and it seems to have worked. There is a reason I asked this. I have raised the bias = VTF and Houdini seems very happy with the Fat Boy. Seems like a classic ID 10 T error, unfortunately. |
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Post by myles on Oct 10, 2020 16:09:09 GMT
Ok, stupid question time. Should I set the bias weight = VTF? I have always traditionally set it about 0.5g lower and it seems to have worked. There is a reason I asked this. I have raised the bias = VTF and Houdini seems very happy with the Fat Boy. Seems like a classic ID 10 T error, unfortunately. I find bias is suck it and see. |
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Post by macca on Oct 10, 2020 16:12:25 GMT
I think the real reason is that some have said they preferred the sound with no Houdini as in fairness you can try it and return it and get your £300 back. Plus a fiver for your trouble.
Problem is you have a medium where some of its technical weaknesses are actually strengths. The reverb thing just being one. So it's no wonder that correcting some of those weaknesses isn't going to be universally popular. How many people do you see saying that technically excellent decks like SME are 'sterile'?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2020 16:37:08 GMT
Well, Houdini is staying chez Cagey, if you know what I mean Harry.
I like it. I like it a lot....
That is all that matters.
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Post by myles on Oct 10, 2020 18:11:20 GMT
Well, Houdini is staying chez Cagey, if you know what I mean Harry. I like it. I like it a lot.... That is all that matters. Absolutely mate, one man's treasure is another man's trash. Enjoy the music. |
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 10, 2020 19:13:16 GMT
Well, Houdini is staying chez Cagey, if you know what I mean Harry. I like it. I like it a lot.... That is all that matters. That's a good outcome and I'm pleased you like it, K. Top stuff! |
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Post by dsjr on Oct 11, 2020 11:03:27 GMT
Can I just add one thing from experience (not to do with the Houdini). Our ears can tolerate up to 10db of compression without it sounding 'obviously' compressed according to some ancient BBC research (there's a paper online somewhere). The first TC album has *some* reverb on her voice, but it isn't much. If for example it sounds as if she's singing with 'washes' of reverb behind her voice, I'd suggest it's compression making her sound that way. I've also heard 'Fast car' for example, sound totally dry and lacking. news by Dire Straights can sound great on vinyl, the format adding extra 'thump' to the drums and emphasising the reverb too in a most attractive way. A shame that some still regard digital with suspicion, as I'd use the CD's of these albums as a reference, even if some of you may not like the sound. SQ's right about digital delay and in fact the main thing regarding the 'sound' of an 80's cut record was probably the analogue tape machine electronics used on playback...
Not sure if it's available still but a good way to inadvertently hear compression is the Jethro Tull compilation 'Past Masters' from the mid 80's. The first few minutes of 'Thick as a brick' has a lovely sweet guitar sound totally unlike the official album release and IA's voice is sweetly sibilant. My mastering engineer pal summed it up as Dolby A master tapes played back without being 'de-Dolby'd' so sounding nice and sweetly sibilant (far more than Dolby B on a cassette for example).
Kevin, I take it from earlier comments that digital doesn't feature seriously in your sound system at home? No agenda in the question, but genuine interest.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2020 12:17:40 GMT
I have digital at home. I use Tidal fairly regularly, but this is through a home built streamer featuring an Asus Essence STX II sound card. This feeds a Beresford SEG which has been upgraded by Stan to the highest level he offers (clocks etc.). This is fed by the Dorado PSU and a linear PSU. It sounds good to me.
It is not my main source of listening though, as there is something just right with analogue.
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Post by dsjr on Oct 11, 2020 15:20:28 GMT
Thanks No idea if you can do this or would even have inclination to try one day, but I'd be fascinated to hear what you'd think of current cheap dacs like the Topping E30 or Schiit Modi 3 in comparison.. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2020 16:25:31 GMT
I can feed my preamp directly with my Soundcard. The SEG sounds a little better.
I am not tempted to buy another DAC, unless I go for something like a D70, or better.
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Post by myles on Oct 16, 2020 21:15:46 GMT
I see a negative review has been forthcoming on another forum. The guy has been put in his place unsurprisingly.
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Bigman80
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The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,407
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Post by Bigman80 on Oct 16, 2020 21:27:07 GMT
I see a negative review has been forthcoming on another forum. The guy has been put in his place unsurprisingly. Oh? Got a link? |
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