Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 11, 2020 12:33:28 GMT
Biggie, I know you have the Neurochrome, yet you're currently raving over a second rate valve amp with huge colouration and added distortion/character and hf ringing if tests are to be relied upon - the smaller PL integrated in silver finish looked shite in comparison with some more serious E.A.R's it was displayed with - maybe it should have been a black or grey one? I was trying to suggest when the need for the next new thing comes along, that you try to get a listen to Hegel, as I found it just as tuneful as any valve amp I've heard at this venue (Icon, Pathos, Croft old and new, Quad old and new, Croft preamp(new) and Quad (old) but sadly, his old Radfords aren't safe to use until a rebuild). For a non-Quad solid state amp to do this for me was a shock frankly. I forgot the utterly beguiling EAR V12 amp - madness but so clear with no stodge.
Such a crying shame that E.A.R amps are almost double the price in the UK they should be and all to appeal to the far eastern high end audio-jewellery market where a higher price is everything.
I can't speak for the PL integrated amps or any PrimaLuna Amplifier other than the one I have here, but you are missing the point here Dave, on my "Raving" The 686 is a reference level amplifier within the envelope of its price range. For CIRCA £2k, I can't think, find or imagine anything else doing what it does. Sure, it can be beaten on THD by the Bruno Hypex Amps, possibly the benchmark too, Maybe even the Orchard Audio BOSC, but listening to it gives me more of what I like than any of the aforementioned (not heard a Benchmark) There will not be more SS amplification on the way here UNLESS it's something that threatens to dislodge the 686....so either big bucks or free on loan. The 686 IS my SS amplification for the future. I've said before, in regard to integrated amps etc, that if it has a carbon wiper for a volume control, I'm just not interested in listening. If I were to buy a commercially available amplifier, it would have to fit the bill in terms of what I believe are non negotiable build parameters. They don't exist, or if they do, they require me to remortgage my house! I've recently been called "uncompromising" on my HiFi beliefs...in a positive way, but I totally agree. I'm not Interested in Hegel .... Sorry. As for the Primaluna, my oh my.....one set of measurements from an amp that wasn't this one, or this model, and all Primaluna amps are mediocre nasties that wouldn't look out of place next to the bric-a-brac in a charity shop! Truth is Dave, I don't care if the sine wave passing through this amplifier looked like a worn out old speed bump....it sounds fantastic, and I am having great fun with it. The problem with things like this, is when people start shouting about how "accurate" it sounds....or how low the distortion is. I am under no illusions that this amplifier is miles away from the 686 in every measurable way, BUT if I were saying things like "I'm hearing things I don't hear with......" Then the measurements would demonstrate that it's a load of bollocks. Read what I've written, it's totally highlighting the lies that valve amplification tell you...organic vocals, full bodied this that and the other. The PL5 is one of the better Valve Amplifiers I've heard Dave, but I'm not saying anything other than that. I enjoy listening to it and if it is distorting, mangling the sine wave and ringing, I can tell you that it hasn't bothered me one bit. It's still in the system, it still gives me chills at times and I am happy. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 11, 2020 12:52:42 GMT
I suspect you need to have a listen to a PL5 to hear how good it actually sounds, Dave. ... Perhaps suitably hidden to avoid expectation bias. 
Neither Oli nor I are short of experience when it comes to amps, and we both think it a very capable performer. Sometimes measurements can only get you so far, then you have to rely on your ears as ultimately that's all that really matters. I've no plans to move mine on and regard it as my final valve amp. Spot on Jerry. Us box swappers would know! Just to follow on a little, if i may..... Dave, I have had a ruck of amplifiers here. The ones i have liked all have something in common, they are chameleon like in their reproduction of whatever material you feed it. So it never sounds the same on any two albums. They allow the music to do what the music wants to...boundary-less The worst ones, or shall i say "the ones that don't last here" are the ones that don't do this. I can freely admit that there was a time when i didnt even know what measurements meant, what impedance matching was etc, so i had to trust my ears to tell me what i needed to know. That's the best way to learn whats going on IMO. Take the Krell KSA100 MK2. It does things that no other solid state amplifier does....but it does it on everything. It's not a problem, but its a fact but over time you realise that it has a sound...a sonic signature. There have been a few amps here that did that....the PrimaLuna is not one of them. OK, it sounds like a valve amplifier..unmistakably so, but it isnt mauling every track into its own image...it gets out of the way...just enough. The interesting thing is that the PL5 struck a chord with me when it had the stock valves in place...It got much better, much more out of the way when Jerrys TAD valves were put in. I now know that there is more to get from this GEM of an amplifier by adding in what i know makes a difference. This PL5 is here for the long term. When us Box Swapper say that, you know we like it. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 11, 2020 12:57:02 GMT
ANYWAY...... These should be on their way from the USofA shortly.. Some RCA 6V6G The word is that they will work in the PL5 so I thought I'd take a punt. No idea what to expect sonically, but it's an adventure!  |
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Sept 11, 2020 17:33:43 GMT
Oli, I just want to remind you that I did express caution on the KSA100 and 50, as I always found them a bit foggy sounding (Jimmy H's way round it was to use unshielded thin solid core cables but most of the time he had three 50's in active configuration so impossible to check different products). People who loved these disliked the perhaps better KSA80 as they seemed to find it too thin and bright (I loved it!) and from a long way off now, I'd suggest the 50S was more like that! The screaming KSA250 I heard must have been faulty as it was headache inducing compared to the calmer FPB models I deeply respect. Apologies if I'm being presumptious, but Stereophile tested two Primluna amps and both were pretty poor, with audibly high low order distortion and only the fifth upwards being at or below supposed audible thresholds. if two are bad it's likely this is a design 'feature' and the others wouldn't be far behind. No probs, you love what it's doing, but do please be aware of what they're doing to your speakers as +/-2db is very clearly audible - you obviously love it but don't get too used to it as going back to a lower distortion amp with speaker immune low output impedance will be a bit of a shock - some peeps can't deal with it I've had two goes at an all valve amp system and really, find the faff and tube rolling stuff far from fun - I'm to old and cynical obviously now. Sorry to have crapped on this thread, I can't help myself sometimes  Feel free to delete my input and responses if it helps. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 11, 2020 18:10:02 GMT
Oli, I just want to remind you that I did express caution on the KSA100 and 50, as I always found them a bit foggy sounding (Jimmy H's way round it was to use unshielded thin solid core cables but most of the time he had three 50's in active configuration so impossible to check different products). People who loved these disliked the perhaps better KSA80 as they seemed to find it too thin and bright (I loved it!) and from a long way off now, I'd suggest the 50S was more like that! The screaming KSA250 I heard must have been faulty as it was headache inducing compared to the calmer FPB models I deeply respect. Apologies if I'm being presumptious, but Stereophile tested two Primluna amps and both were pretty poor, with audibly high low order distortion and only the fifth upwards being at or below supposed audible thresholds. if two are bad it's likely this is a design 'feature' and the others wouldn't be far behind. No probs, you love what it's doing, but do please be aware of what they're doing to your speakers as +/-2db is very clearly audible - you obviously love it but don't get too used to it as going back to a lower distortion amp with speaker immune low output impedance will be a bit of a shock - some peeps can't deal with it I've had two goes at an all valve amp system and really, find the faff and tube rolling stuff far from fun - I'm to old and cynical obviously now. Sorry to have crapped on this thread, I can't help myself sometimes Feel free to delete my input and responses if it helps. Yes, you did and I totally agreed with you. I'll have to have a look for other reviews, specs etc, but ye....I'm not the slightest bit concerned |
|
|
|
Post by mikeyb on Sept 11, 2020 19:59:35 GMT
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 11, 2020 20:49:06 GMT
The 6moons review nails it. The PL5 doesnt suffer the softness in my system as i have a proper preamp on it, but they are just good enough to constantly enjoy without ever becoming intrusive. They work......Seriously well. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Sept 12, 2020 7:28:26 GMT
The 6moons review nails it. I didn't get past the reviewer's list of kit Sundry accessories: GPA Formula Carbon/Kevlar shelf for tube amps; GPA Apex footers underneath DAC and
amp; Walker Audio SST on all connections; Walker Audio Vivid CD cleaner; Furutech RD-2 CD demagnetizer;
WorldPower cryo'd Hubbell and IsoClean wall socketslol. And using Zu speakers too! OMG as they say nowadays. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 12, 2020 8:03:48 GMT
The 6moons review nails it. I didn't get past the reviewer's list of kit Sundry accessories: GPA Formula Carbon/Kevlar shelf for tube amps; GPA Apex footers underneath DAC and
amp; Walker Audio SST on all connections; Walker Audio Vivid CD cleaner; Furutech RD-2 CD demagnetizer;
WorldPower cryo'd Hubbell and IsoClean wall socketslol. And using Zu speakers too! OMG as they say nowadays. Hahahaha......yeah, quite a bit of foo to be fair. |
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Sept 12, 2020 9:26:55 GMT
I'm sure some of these reviewers try to 'outfoo' each other.
Have I just invented a noun, to Outfoo?
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 12, 2020 9:30:42 GMT
I'm sure some of these reviewers try to 'outfoo' each other. Have I just invented a noun, to Outfoo? Hahahaha, it's brilliant!!! Outfoo...new hifi terminology |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Sept 12, 2020 10:20:23 GMT
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 12, 2020 10:26:35 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by macca on Sept 12, 2020 10:30:49 GMT
I just can't take the review with any seriousness once I read the list of foo in use. They'd be better off not mentioning it at all. It is funny though.
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 12, 2020 21:53:31 GMT
I just can't take the review with any seriousness once I read the list of foo in use. They'd be better off not mentioning it at all. It is funny though. Yes I agree. However, regardless of the Foo, he was pretty much on the money. |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Sept 13, 2020 7:46:12 GMT
Okay, so I struggled through the 6 Moons review. He uses a lot of words to say very little. The only things I took away from it were - use sensitive, 'fast' speakers for best results - as per almost any valve amp - and that the sound was slightly soft.
The latter characteristic would put me off, have to say, although if I was using Zu speakers (because someone has put a gun to my head since that's what it would take) I might actually welcome that.
|
|
|
|
Post by jandl100 on Sept 13, 2020 9:29:23 GMT
Okay, so I struggled through the 6 Moons review. He uses a lot of words to say very little. Yes, all of the 6 Loons reviews I have read suffer from acute verbal diarrhoea. I really can't be arsed to read them these days. Well, if it implied the PL5 sounds soft, that's certainly wrong imo. If the reviewer likes Zu speakers then he probably prefers a bright, spiky, lightweight sound, in which case a PL5 would sound soft in comparison. I think it sounds neutral and highly resolved. Although stick something like a quad of 6L6 in there and it loses its mojo. It's a bit of a chameleon in that way, you can drastically change its sound by choice of valves |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Sept 13, 2020 10:14:11 GMT
Acute verbal dysentery would be more correct.  This got me too - despite using multiple fancy power cords, fancy mains sockets and two ''Walker Audio Velociter S'' power conditioners... ''Unlike the 35wpc Onix/Melody SP3 integrated, the ProLogue 5 into 101dB speakers proved noisy. Steady-state powersupply drone was readily audible in the listening seat when the refrigerator in the kitchen cycled off. ''Do these contradictions never occur to these people? |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 18, 2020 9:41:12 GMT
Looks like the new owner is happy too:  |
|
|
|
Post by hornucopia on Sept 18, 2020 11:03:10 GMT
Srajan 6 Moons has moved on a LOT since 2005. If you want 'Foo' read Jeff Day!DElving deep into every possible nuance; wire. plugs, sockets. wire conditioners, crystals, cross-over components. I imagine him sitting cross-legged, David Carradine Kung Fu=like, in meditation before beginning each music service! Anyway, we are gathered here in this postscript to mourn the sale of the aforesaid amp. WE shall have to await Jerry disinterring his ? . . Foo? Ocellia sell the Calliope I use with a Franck Chang tuning bell gismo inside.*** Should I nip down to nearest 'head' shop (I know the owner! yes, we have several in Bristol, it's the cool S-West!) and stick a Tibetan sounding bowl inside mine?
***https://6moons.com/audioreviews/ocellia5/1.html
|
|
|
|
Post by firebottle on Sept 18, 2020 11:06:50 GMT
Cushtie!
|
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 18, 2020 14:58:52 GMT
Srajan 6 Moons has moved on a LOT since 2005. If you want 'Foo' read Jeff Day!DElving deep into every possible nuance; wire. plugs, sockets. wire conditioners, crystals, cross-over components. I imagine him sitting cross-legged, David Carradine Kung Fu=like, in meditation before beginning each music service! Anyway, we are gathered here in this postscript to mourn the sale of the aforesaid amp. WE shall have to await Jerry disinterring his ? . . Foo? Ocellia sell the Calliope I use with a Franck Chang tuning bell gismo inside.*** Should I nip down to nearest 'head' shop (I know the owner! yes, we have several in Bristol, it's the cool S-West!) and stick a Tibetan sounding bowl inside mine? ***https://6moons.com/audioreviews/ocellia5/1.html
Your "head" shops must be different to ours.......  |
|
|
|
Post by macca on Sept 20, 2020 19:51:01 GMT
Our corner shop carries a surprising array of drug-related paraphernalia. Scales, grinders, bongs, lok-tite plastic bags. They even sell blunt wrappers - I mean that's some specialised Sh#t right there. Back when we had proper head shops round here they never sold blunt wrappers.
They used to sell all the legal highs too, until they became illegal. No Tibetan bowls though but I'm sure he's get them in if I asked.
|
|
|
|
Post by jandl100 on Sept 29, 2020 13:03:10 GMT
Bit of a reshuffle today. Got the valves I'd loaned to Oli back so decided to resurrect from retirement my Primaluna Prologue 5 power amp. Tbch (to be completely honest) I'd more than half expected the Temple Audio Monos to kick the sh#t out of it, and I was kind of looking forward to selling it and having some fun choosing and buying something else, as one does. Whoops. Wrong! It sounds fabulous, and has that extra bit of valve vibrancy compared to the class D Monos. Seriously enjoying the toob sounds again. |
|
Bigman80
Grandmaster
The HiFi Bear/Audioaddicts/Bigbottle Owner
Posts: 16,400
Member is Online
|
Post by Bigman80 on Sept 29, 2020 13:07:28 GMT
Bit of a reshuffle today. Got the valves I'd loaned to Oli back so decided to resurrect from retirement my Primaluna Prologue 5 power amp. Tbch (to be completely honest) I'd more than half expected the Temple Audio Monos to kick the sh#t out of it, and I was kind of looking forward to selling it and having some fun choosing and buying something else, as one does. Whoops. Wrong! It sounds fabulous, and has that extra bit of valve vibrancy compared to the class D Monos. Seriously enjoying the toob sounds again. It's very easy to write off the PL5....but it's a beast! I really enjoyed mine and I typically have a set of 6v6L valves here with no amp to plug them into lol |
|
|
|
Post by mikeyb on Sept 29, 2020 17:10:41 GMT
I’m still muddling through with this hunk of scrap, no easy I’ll tell ye 😂  |
|
|
|
Post by jandl100 on Sept 29, 2020 17:19:53 GMT
Aye, it's tough.
But someone's gotta do it.
That's a LOT of tubes to roll - I can see why you've stayed with the stock PLs!
|
|
|
|
Post by mikeyb on Sept 29, 2020 18:12:19 GMT
Aye, it's tough. But someone's gotta do it. That's a LOT of tubes to roll - I can see why you've stayed with the stock PLs! Lol, yeah, mind you I’ve just bought 4 Mullard reissues and on the hunt for 4 more. I’ve also tried JJs EL34 2s in it as they were cheap enough to try. It’s supposed to sound superb with KT150s but at £120 each I’ve not had the baws to try them.... yet 😂 |
|
|
|
Post by jandl100 on Sept 29, 2020 18:33:37 GMT
Sadly, my Prologue 5 won't take KT150 but it does sound great with KT120, my fave power valve with it so far.
I'm currently running with TAD 12ax7 and 12au7, but I've a pair of Brimar 12au7 on order.
|
|
|
|
Post by mikeyb on Sept 29, 2020 19:11:38 GMT
Sadly, my Prologue 5 won't take KT150 but it does sound great with KT120, my fave power valve with it so far. I'm currently running with TAD 12ax7 and 12au7, but I've a pair of Brimar 12au7 on order. Not tried any TAD valves yet, but I’ve had Mullards, Telefunkens and Siemens Triple Micas in the middle pre position. All great all different, currently a Primaluna pair in just now. |
|
Feel free to delete my input and responses if it helps.
