Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 3, 2020 8:56:38 GMT
The Sony V-FETs (5650 and 8650 in the UK market) were absolutely delightful if a touch 'loose' in the bass. They did reproduce recording venue and reverb in general superbly which many Jap amps of the time didn't seem as good at. Please be warned that the output stage is either unobtainable or very expensive indeed (I believe they used matched sets) and at forty five years old, dry joints here and there can cause major destruction of the output stage AND any speakers connected to them. Whether a going over with a soldering iron prevents this I can't say sadly, but what a lovely 'sounding' amp range. In the UK, they replaced them with a range nowhere near as nice I remember. i very nearly bought a yamaha b-2 amp a while back,its because of what you wrote above that i didnt,i got cold feet and went the valve route. i still would like to hear one though. Thing is, everything has the potential to fail and blow up. There are replacement parts available for almost everything but it just wouldn't be original anymore. When I bought the Krell, 80% of comments were to put me off. I didn't listen and it was a fantastic decision. Just try and find one in superb condition. Cosmetic condition usually is a good indication of how it's been treated but a look at the guts is always useful. |
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Post by dsjr on Jan 3, 2020 10:29:21 GMT
Sony at the time, along with many others, changed models at least annually, so products rarely were around loing enough to become classics. Remember the much lauded a few years ago Pioneer PL71? Fugly looking thing to me so largely got ignored, but underneath it was a very fine turntable system but before anyone realised what a good product it was, it was discontinued. I think Mr Karma above had the armless version which, if we saw it at all, I reckon only a handful made it over here from Germany, which started a high end market long before we did i think.
There *was* I think, a V-FET generation after the ones discussed above, as well as a 4650 I don't think we ever saw and if foggy memory serves, I think they were in the slim chassis TAN 88 with early switching supplies (Vintage Knob). Looking at the texts, I suspect these were trouble and the tech was abandoned along with the early switching supplies? By thattime, our audio market was shrinking and the remains coalescing around Linn and Naim and I do agree with some about how our market was strangled as a result, although the economy then didn't really favour wide ranges of Japanese imports. I think the real UK high end market looked to the US for inspiration and Absolute Sounds was born just at the right time...
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Post by karma67 on Jan 3, 2020 10:37:45 GMT
i had the japan only plc-1700, a differnt model to the pl-71 |
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Post by dsjr on Jan 3, 2020 10:39:59 GMT
Oli, the parts in some of these large hi-tech Japanese amps ISN'T available any more and, despiote battleship build of most of it, components and soldering can and does age, especially when the tech inside is untested long term. A blown V-FET amp os curtains for it really as I believe Sony ran out of devices a long time ago (I could be wrong, but you'd pay an arm and a leg for them if you could get a set). The Yamaha C1 preamp (a legend probably for all the wrong reasons) uses transistors which are long gone and sometimes needed I understand. The B1 and B2 were excellent I remember. Coming up to date, Technics discontinued the infamous 1210 series due to a chip going out of production or permanently out of stock and the new models are a total motor redesign (seemingly descended from the Pabst direct drive motor my Dual 701 has)that just happen to 'look' broadly similar to the old ones.
I suspect that if you may have difficulty getting service, I'd stick with trad circuits lavishly put together - like Accuphase for instance. Creamy smooth presentation, plenty of power, a tuner 'feel' to die for and built to last centuries I reckon! A few caps apparently get weak and the controls all go noisy on early ones of these, but these are well worth hunting down and restoring. Way better than many Luxmans of the time (Luxman did a range of nice receivers though before I understand the company changed hands and dumbed a lot of it down for a while, the amp sections very impressive in the early Naim era and a nice step up from that JVC receiver Jerry showed, which along with the baby JRS100, was a goodie)
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Post by dsjr on Jan 3, 2020 10:42:25 GMT
i had the japan only plc-1700, a differnt model to the pl-71 Did you change it because you could, or was there an underlying niggle with the sonics you couldn't get on with? Not sure what the mat is either - it can't be original  |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 3, 2020 10:58:55 GMT
Oli, the parts in some of these large hi-tech Japanese amps ISN'T available any more and, despiote battleship build of most of it, components and soldering can and does age, especially when the tech inside is untested long term. A blown V-FET amp os curtains for it really as I believe Sony ran out of devices a long time ago (I could be wrong, but you'd pay an arm and a leg for them if you could get a set). The Yamaha C1 preamp (a legend probably for all the wrong reasons) uses transistors which are long gone and sometimes needed I understand. The B1 and B2 were excellent I remember. Coming up to date, Technics discontinued the infamous 1210 series due to a chip going out of production or permanently out of stock and the new models are a total motor redesign (seemingly descended from the Pabst direct drive motor my Dual 701 has)that just happen to 'look' broadly similar to the old ones. I suspect that if you may have difficulty getting service, I'd stick with trad circuits lavishly put together - like Accuphase for instance. Creamy smooth presentation, plenty of power, a tuner 'feel' to die for and built to last centuries I reckon! A few caps apparently get weak and the controls all go noisy on early ones of these, but these are well worth hunting down and restoring. Way better than many Luxmans of the time (Luxman did a range of nice receivers though before I understand the company changed hands and dumbed a lot of it down for a while, the amp sections very impressive in the early Naim era and a nice step up from that JVC receiver Jerry showed, which along with the baby JRS100, was a goodie) I'm not saying the original parts are available Dave, as we know they are not, but a lot of these obsolete parts have modern day alternatives. Yes, a few mods around the replacement may be needed but rarely is anything truly DOA. Believe me. I see two masters at work very regularly. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 3, 2020 10:59:55 GMT
i had the japan only plc-1700, a differnt model to the pl-71 Did you change it because you could, or was there an underlying niggle with the sonics you couldn't get on with? Not sure what the mat is either - it can't be original Let's remember, this is a Jap amp thread btw. A thread on the Pioneer PL1700 is welcome as it's a beautiful thing. |
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Post by macca on Jan 3, 2020 12:25:23 GMT
Coming up to date, Technics discontinued the infamous 1210 series due to a chip going out of production or permanently out of stock and the new models are a total motor redesign (seemingly descended from the Pabst direct drive motor my Dual 701 has)that just happen to 'look' broadly similar to the old ones. I read that they discontinued them because some of the dies were wearing out and they didn't see the point in making new ones, the 'vinyl revival' having passed Japan by.
AFAIK there are no unobtainable parts in a 1210.
And why are they 'infamous'? Did you mean to write 'famous'?
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Post by dsjr on Jan 3, 2020 12:49:16 GMT
Infamous 'cos everyone knows them - nothing more sinister.
I accept that there are modern alternative components as I worked with many service engineers who regularly looked up alternative transistor parts even thirty years ago (no internet to source obsolete parts from around the world as we can do now). I'm just saying the V-FET and other highly specialist components had a fairly short production life as nobody or few others used them if memory serves and Sony and others only continued if there was demand before the next big thing. These circuits are highly specialised as well, but if the topology could be adapted, then that's brilliant. Glad to hear that new replacement parts are still available for the techie deck. I was under the false? idea that used parts was the only way to go here, not that they're probably needed...
Apologies for the thread drift. Jap amps of the 70's were a small part of the invasion from that country back then and UK companies *at the time* could do little to compete with the acres of large shiny-front boxes we had on show. I do need to scan some pics of the time. It's probably long gone now, but a colleague took a 10 minute vid of the KJ W1 showrooms as it was forty years ago (1979-1980 or so) - I'd love to see it again...
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Post by macca on Jan 3, 2020 13:21:33 GMT
Infamous 'cos everyone knows them - nothing more sinister. That's 'famous' then, 'infamous' is being famous for all the wrong reasons. Like that deck that used to go round backwards, Strathern or Strathclyde or something?
That KJ video would be great. I like to look at the adverts in the old mags from the 1970s and 1980s, especially the amplifiers. Somehow that stuff remains more desirable to me than its modern equivalents, even though the modern stuff is better technically it isn't a s cool looking or as much fun.
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Post by dsjr on Jan 3, 2020 14:18:01 GMT
You'll see one of the KJW1 staff including a sideways shot of me in a late 70's magazine ad, showing a 'sick' Luxman receiver with the top off, the manager acting as surgeon having his brow mopped and the rest of us sticking screwdrivers and so on into the guts (I think that's how it was, I can't remember in detail now). I have only one person who may have the video, so I'll ask him. it may have been chucked out in the shop though, as just after I left at end of 1981, the place had a huge refit, not necessarily for the better, as the tape side was so huge and a corner entrance previously blocked off was re-instated and fresh internal walls built, the main dem room going into the substantially sized basement, which was offices, service dept and stock rooms before.. The basement offices were moved into further rooms 'under the road' after these previously unused rooms were made water and weather tight. I'm getting paranoid about drifting again. Apologies all.
P.S. It's great to see Accuphase and Luxman are both keeping the beefy big Jap amp stylee alive. Had a good gander at the Accuphase E-650 amp with matching CD player today alongside some Chord stuff which is one UK equivalent in build and finish I think.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2020 17:26:02 GMT
Infamous 'cos everyone knows them - nothing more sinister. That's 'famous' then, 'infamous' is being famous for all the wrong reasons. Like that deck that used to go round backwards, Strathern or Strathclyde or something?
That KJ video would be great. I like to look at the adverts in the old mags from the 1970s and 1980s, especially the amplifiers. Somehow that stuff remains more desirable to me than its modern equivalents, even though the modern stuff is better technically it isn't a s cool looking or as much fun.
I used to go to the Sony Centre in Regent Street back in the late '70s when I worked in That London and drool (not literally ofc) over their top-end reel-to-reel tape recorders, way out of my price range. Then I bought a Sony direct drive turntable and it was shite, so the dream was over. |
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Post by robbiegong on Jan 3, 2020 20:20:43 GMT
That's 'famous' then, 'infamous' is being famous for all the wrong reasons. Like that deck that used to go round backwards, Strathern or Strathclyde or something?
That KJ video would be great. I like to look at the adverts in the old mags from the 1970s and 1980s, especially the amplifiers. Somehow that stuff remains more desirable to me than its modern equivalents, even though the modern stuff is better technically it isn't a s cool looking or as much fun.
I used to go to the Sony Centre in Regent Street back in the late '70s when I worked in That London and drool (not literally ofc) over their top-end reel-to-reel tape recorders, way out of my price range. Then I bought a Sony direct drive turntable and it was shite, so the dream was over. I'll bet my last penny, nickel or dime that it wasnt one of the high end Sony tt's - PS 6750, PS 8750 (lovely piece), PS X70, PS X75, PS X700, PS X800, TTS-8000 or the very high end bad boy - PS-X9  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 10:48:14 GMT
I used to go to the Sony Centre in Regent Street back in the late '70s when I worked in That London and drool (not literally ofc) over their top-end reel-to-reel tape recorders, way out of my price range. Then I bought a Sony direct drive turntable and it was shite, so the dream was over. I'll bet my last penny, nickel or dime that it wasnt one of the high end Sony tt's - PS 6750, PS 8750 (lovely piece), PS X70, PS X75, PS X700, PS X800, TTS-8000 or the very high end bad boy - PS-X9 You'd win. It was a low-end model, the PST1 IIRC (I've been trying to forget it, tbh). However, it seems to be popular over at vinylengine: www.vinylengine.com/library/sony/ps-t1.shtml'A classic direct drive semi automatic (the first direct drive priced for the masses) ... took a star off because pitch adjustment is inside dust cover and plastic tone arm rest is extremely fragile (luckily mine has not broken) ... It's my daily turntable in my office (the nicer turntables stay at home) and with a Shure M55e it sounds great. If you can find one in good shape, it's a great TT.' |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 4, 2020 11:06:19 GMT
I'll bet my last penny, nickel or dime that it wasnt one of the high end Sony tt's - PS 6750, PS 8750 (lovely piece), PS X70, PS X75, PS X700, PS X800, TTS-8000 or the very high end bad boy - PS-X9 You'd win. It was a low-end model, the PST1 IIRC (I've been trying to forget it, tbh). However, it seems to be popular over at vinylengine: www.vinylengine.com/library/sony/ps-t1.shtml'A classic direct drive semi automatic (the first direct drive priced for the masses) ... took a star off because pitch adjustment is inside dust cover and plastic tone arm rest is extremely fragile (luckily mine has not broken) ... It's my daily turntable in my office (the nicer turntables stay at home) and with a Shure M55e it sounds great. If you can find one in good shape, it's a great TT.' Sony made some really great stuff didn't they! I mean their "Voce" Speakers are supposed to be divine to listen to, but try finding a pair in the UK! www.thevintageknob.org/sony-SS-A5.htmlThe TTS8000 is another absolutely beautiful looking piece of kit, although I think it needs a Panzerholtz plinth to get near the SP10 in "tonal neutrality" terms. The Resin based STD plinth coloured the sound quite obviously at my abode. if the decision is made (as Jamie has) to do this, I suspect the owners of these beauties would be amazed at the difference. |
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Post by macca on Jan 4, 2020 11:10:54 GMT
I'll bet my last penny, nickel or dime that it wasnt one of the high end Sony tt's - PS 6750, PS 8750 (lovely piece), PS X70, PS X75, PS X700, PS X800, TTS-8000 or the very high end bad boy - PS-X9 You'd win. It was a low-end model, the PST1 IIRC (I've been trying to forget it, tbh). However, it seems to be popular over at vinylengine: www.vinylengine.com/library/sony/ps-t1.shtml'A classic direct drive semi automatic (the first direct drive priced for the masses) ... took a star off because pitch adjustment is inside dust cover and plastic tone arm rest is extremely fragile (luckily mine has not broken) ... It's my daily turntable in my office (the nicer turntables stay at home) and with a Shure M55e it sounds great. If you can find one in good shape, it's a great TT.' I had one, cost me twenty squid IIRC. I donated it to a youth club for the youths to play their 'vinyls' on. Very, very plasticky but lots of voids underneath the plinth that could be filled with 'stuff' to maybe damp it a bit more. Is it worth the effort? Probably not. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 11:28:54 GMT
You'd win. It was a low-end model, the PST1 IIRC (I've been trying to forget it, tbh). However, it seems to be popular over at vinylengine: www.vinylengine.com/library/sony/ps-t1.shtml'A classic direct drive semi automatic (the first direct drive priced for the masses) ... took a star off because pitch adjustment is inside dust cover and plastic tone arm rest is extremely fragile (luckily mine has not broken) ... It's my daily turntable in my office (the nicer turntables stay at home) and with a Shure M55e it sounds great. If you can find one in good shape, it's a great TT.' I had one, cost me twenty squid IIRC. I donated it to a youth club for the youths to play their 'vinyls' on. Very, very plasticky but lots of voids underneath the plinth that could be filled with 'stuff' to maybe damp it a bit more. Is it worth the effort? Probably not. I tried various tweaks with mine (different cartridges, various turntable mats), but whatever I did it still sounded dull, to the point where I stopped listening to music. I sold it to a work colleague for about twenty quid. It stopped working a few weeks later, so I gave her the money back. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 4, 2020 11:29:22 GMT
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Post by robbiegong on Jan 4, 2020 18:03:31 GMT
  Very nice Oliver - Audioscope always have lovely rare pieces in near mint - mint condition. No idea where they source the stuf from
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 4, 2020 18:04:10 GMT
Very nice Oliver - Audioscope always have lovely rare pieces in near mint - mint condition. No idea where they source the stuf from Haha, pricey too! |
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Post by robbiegong on Jan 4, 2020 19:34:56 GMT
Very nice Oliver - Audioscope always have lovely rare pieces in near mint - mint condition. No idea where they source the stuf from Haha, pricey too! Of course it would be nice to nab one for a grand BUT: 1. What would you be getting with a cheaper, sold as seen jobby ?? This one's a minter! original manuals, warranty card, box etc etc 2. Appears to have had the inherent 'frying itself' issue addressed 3. Where would you find another like it ?I regularly fantasise over the 160wpc bigger brother to my Sansui and have seen a minter BUT I dont have £2.5k floating about  If I did though, I'd be all over it, for the fact that like your TA-N88B, it's a genuine audiophile piece, serious proper top quality electronic component parts, beautifully built with genuine hi-fidelity intent, massive power supply etc etc and very rare - seldom come up in minty order ticking the boxes, you gets what yo pay for at the end of the day. Whats a new 160wpc Accuphase or Luxman cost these days ? Probs circa £5.5-£6k, and these vintage pieces you and I ogle, without issues will easily compete sonically with the best of whats out there, no fear, so you get my jist |
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 4, 2020 20:17:51 GMT
Of course it would be nice to nab one for a grand BUT: 1. What would you be getting with a cheaper, sold as seen jobby ?? This one's a minter! original manuals, warranty card, box etc etc 2. Appears to have had the inherent 'frying itself' issue addressed 3. Where would you find another like it ?I regularly fantasise over the 160wpc bigger brother to my Sansui and have seen a minter BUT I dont have £2.5k floating about If I did though, I'd be all over it, for the fact that like your TA-N88B, it's a genuine audiophile piece, serious proper top quality electronic component parts, beautifully built with genuine hi-fidelity intent, massive power supply etc etc and very rare - seldom come up in minty order ticking the boxes, you gets what yo pay for at the end of the day. Whats a new 160wpc Accuphase or Luxman cost these days ? Probs circa £5.5-£6k, and these vintage pieces you and I ogle, without issues will easily compete sonically with the best of whats out there, no fear, so you get my jist I absolutely agree Rob, in terms of integrated amplifiers anyway, but i don't "hand on heart" know if they'd live with this Neurochrome amp. Whilst there isn't much to "Ogle" about it, when you listen to it, it's divinity. Absolution from the sins of poorer equipment. Redemption for all of those visionaries who tried to bring this little chip to the fore, only to fail. Honestly, i can't believe how good this amplifier is, and i hear it daily. I still ogle Japanese gear because it's beautiful but for the listening, i'll stick with my Canadian piece. |
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Post by robbiegong on Jan 4, 2020 21:02:12 GMT
Of course it would be nice to nab one for a grand BUT: 1. What would you be getting with a cheaper, sold as seen jobby ?? This one's a minter! original manuals, warranty card, box etc etc 2. Appears to have had the inherent 'frying itself' issue addressed 3. Where would you find another like it ?I regularly fantasise over the 160wpc bigger brother to my Sansui and have seen a minter BUT I dont have £2.5k floating about If I did though, I'd be all over it, for the fact that like your TA-N88B, it's a genuine audiophile piece, serious proper top quality electronic component parts, beautifully built with genuine hi-fidelity intent, massive power supply etc etc and very rare - seldom come up in minty order ticking the boxes, you gets what yo pay for at the end of the day. Whats a new 160wpc Accuphase or Luxman cost these days ? Probs circa £5.5-£6k, and these vintage pieces you and I ogle, without issues will easily compete sonically with the best of whats out there, no fear, so you get my jist
Whilst there isn't much to "Ogle" about it, when you listen to it, it's divinity. Absolution from the sins of poorer equipment. Redemption for all of those visionaries who tried to bring this little chip to the fore, only to fail.
Honestly, i can't believe how good this amplifier is, and i hear it daily.
I still ogle Japanese gear because it's beautiful but for the listening, i'll stick with my Canadian piece.From what you say and have posted Oliver, the Neurochrome sounds excellent and importantly, I know it's components (always a sign..) are tops too..... |
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Post by dsjr on Jan 4, 2020 23:45:00 GMT
I have a 'Choice review of the time the 88 was around. Flabby bass and some mid colouration were criticisms, although overall it was judged an 'interesting but expensive' product, this before Krell and others really raised the roof on such pricing. Pal HiFi Dave has one from this family and when I visit next, I'll look it out...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2020 23:57:51 GMT
I have a 'Choice review of the time the 88 was around. I think I also have that review somewhere. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 21:02:41 GMT
Sure.....Silly to flog it if you like the put me to sleep sound. Like a coffee.....Triple spoon....cream on top. 
It wouldn't be so bad if you anything relevant to say of if I could even understand what your trying to say.
Gosh missed this one........ Now now Rex please don't fret and be all defensive, I've a good mind to put you on my ignore list for your rude mild bitching but...... Since you came out with a sentence that trump's mine, and i quote........( "It wouldn't be so bad if you anything relevant to say of if I could even understand what your trying to say" ).......I will excuse you. I think most others actually got what I was trying to say, but I guess they weren't perhaps Sansui owner's / ex owners......Note I never said fan boy (I hate the term). I was mearly trying to endorse Jerry's findings that most big Jap amps are in fact very soft sounding and in Moi humble opinion....as dull as ditch water. And DSJRs warning of buying "Old Gold" is endorsed by me......Not worth the heartache. |
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Post by jandl100 on Jan 6, 2020 8:00:47 GMT
You are a bit of a character, Harrison  - although your avatar is truly revolting  - have we met elsewhere in fora land with you using a different monicker? I'm inclined to suspect not as I am sure I would recognise your style, it's very distinctive! ... and I'm not sure if I'd agree that "most" big Jap amps are soft sounding, that big Technics certainly was, and the mahoosive Rotel 1412 had a heavily rose-tinted preamp section but its power section was admirably neutral. A Marantz 4230 receiver was lovely but warm and cuddly [although that's a Yank]. The Accuphase E202 was rather bland. Hmm, yeah, OK - you might be right. I've never tried a vintage Sansui, though. ... maybe they all just needed a recap, although I did have them all serviced and the EE thought they were OK. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 6, 2020 10:01:14 GMT
I have a 'Choice review of the time the 88 was around. Flabby bass and some mid colouration were criticisms, although overall it was judged an 'interesting but expensive' product, this before Krell and others really raised the roof on such pricing. Pal HiFi Dave has one from this family and when I visit next, I'll look it out... A review from 1988 that was less than flattering about a piece of Japanese equipment? How odd lol |
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Post by dsjr on Jan 6, 2020 11:01:46 GMT
Yeah I know - but it was the David Watson/Paul Messenger book from 1979 . The TA-N88 was the model tested along with its tasty looking preamp.
The late 70's was the beginning when well specced amps were starting to be criticised for sounding too flat and sterile, and badly measuring less well constructed gear was deemed subjectively better. I think it took years before the *interpretation* of these measurements could be tied up with sonic differences as heard in sighted comparisons (heaven forbid blind testing). I now feel that having an amp or system that sounds 'involving and nice' all the time is perhaps a bit dangerous, as laziness in excessive listening 'comfort' encourages laziness in the recording and production (already happened, but some recording peeps are trying hard still to 'do it better'). Yep, I'm well and truly off the audiophile rails now but we all 'hear music' differently and I feel there's room for everyone..
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Post by Bigman80 on Jan 6, 2020 11:14:07 GMT
Yeah I know - but it was the David Watson/Paul Messenger book from 1979 . The TA-N88 was the model tested along with its tasty looking preamp. The late 70's was the beginning when well specced amps were starting to be criticised for sounding too flat and sterile, and badly measuring less well constructed gear was deemed subjectively better. I think it took years before the *interpretation* of these measurements could be tied up with sonic differences as heard in sighted comparisons (heaven forbid blind testing). I now feel that having an amp or system that sounds 'involving and nice' all the time is perhaps a bit dangerous, as laziness in excessive listening 'comfort' encourages laziness in the recording and production (already happened, but some recording peeps are trying hard still to 'do it better'). Yep, I'm well and truly off the audiophile rails now but we all 'hear music' differently and I feel there's room for everyone.. Absolutely confirms my belief that people just don't want transparency in the sound of their systems. I have said to those that know me, that when you have transparency, 9/10 it's the amplifier that gets the blame for the perceived SQ, yet its actually just doing a better job of revealing what it's being fed with. This is certainly true in the context I have experienced. Digital has seen a real benefit from me adding a high level of transparency. "nice" sounding amps make everything sound nice. It's just not what I am looking for or interested in. I hardly read the equipment reviews after reading most of the systems they are put into. |
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If I did though, I'd be all over it, for the fact that like your TA-N88B, it's a genuine audiophile piece,
- although your avatar is truly revolting 
- have we met elsewhere in fora land with you using a different monicker? I'm inclined to suspect not as I am sure I would recognise your style, it's very distinctive!