Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 26, 2018 10:41:12 GMT
I like the Sonnteer products I've heard and wish they had greater 'market presence.' the UK audio market is effed though, products priced for the far eastern status-conscious buyers now far too expensive here for most, hence the huge market in used gear now. To me they are one of the good guys. Haider is a really genuine guy who is in this for the love of music. The sonics are pretty removed sort of stuff I normally go for, but there is something beguiling about them that I find addictive, |
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Post by dsjr on May 27, 2018 8:01:00 GMT
CD that sounds like a turntable or a turntable that sounds like CD? I'm a lone voice I think but I think that either source should sound as close to the master recording as mastered as possible.
How do 'I' know what the masters sound like? Obviously I can't know every one, but back in the day, there was a kind of 'sound' they had, more dynamic, more top quite often and rather 'dry' with it compared to the vinyl end product. I was ruined for taking vinyl seriously up at Linn thirty years ago, when we were able to compare a Blue Nile master tape (Tinseltown & B side 'Regret') on 30IPS half inch tape with no Dolby A needed, to the acetate that was cut in front of us (very close), to the 12" single at 45rpm (so much lost) and then to the LP version, which was so slushy and soft and well, 'polite' in comparison. I'd heard other tracks off this album on master tape on a previous visit to Linn a few years before, but this was a year or so before the album was released (Rags to Riches is a firm favourite). The masters I knew just had an immediacy to them that most vinyl players lacked and although I think the gap is closing, I still don't think you ever get the full'picture' from a vinyl record, merely parts of it emphasised depending on the deck and cartridge used.
I say this (hopefully in the right thread context) as this week, I've been playing some later Pierre Moerlen's Gong and enjoying the sound off the CD's I have. One track I like is on an LP stored in the garage, but I found it on YouTube -
I had a 15IPS master copy of the last few moments of this track, as it builds to the crashing drum solo at the end and remember how the vinyl sounded more boosted in the upper mids, sounding hard toned through a Naim 32.5 preamp of the time. An old friend had carefully transferred his vinyl copy to digital and sent it to me to compare, the donor deck being a mid 80's spec LP12/Ittok/Karma. preamp I think was the phono stage in a Nakamichi CA7 preamp, which was very good at the time.
Conclusion? To me, the vinyl dub sounds less dynamic, more 'polite' and surface noise intrudes on the long fade out at the end. The YouTube derived file to me is more immediate, more 'vital' sounding and more as I remember a vibraphone sounding close to (a cousins 'ex' had one and it was a magnificent thing to behold). A good friend compared them and preferred the vinyl dub for the very reasons I disliked it!
Below, some of the the Blue Nile tracks that kept me company in the 80's and beyond before my life outside of HiFi was made complete. the latest CD issue sounds very good to me.. I can't link to all the tracks off 'Hats' but worth looking out for. the remastered CDs sound superb, which the sound below may not (I haven't compared).
This last may be from a vinyl source, I don't know.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2018 13:17:13 GMT
I guess you're dead right if you are looking for accuracy. I'm just looking for max enjoyment and vinyl does that better for me.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2018 13:17:52 GMT
I guess you're dead right if you are looking for accuracy. I'm just looking for max enjoyment and vinyl does that better for me.
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Post by dsjr on May 27, 2018 16:42:33 GMT
I'm looking for best music if possible...
I'd love the chance to show you all what I mean, rather than just spouting words on a keyboard, but I can't I'm afraid. I was so damned lucky to be able to get to hear professional recordings played back properly and at one time I could have shown you. |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2018 17:01:10 GMT
I guess you're dead right if you are looking for accuracy. I'm just looking for max enjoyment and vinyl does that better for me. Exactly. I want the music/sound to make me feel good. S. |
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Post by dsjr on May 27, 2018 17:14:43 GMT
I guess you're dead right if you are looking for accuracy. I'm just looking for max enjoyment and vinyl does that better for me. Exactly. I want the music/sound to make me feel good. S. Shane, if the music's good, you can feel good whatever is reproducing it* - and I've gone through times without anything decent to listen through. 'High Fidelity' as a concept is supposed to get as close as possible to the original sound, or at least on a domestic playback system, as close as we can get to the mastering engineer who prepared the music for release. These days, we can have tonal accuracy with believable dynamics too. Back in the 70's, you seemed to have one or the other and rarely both unless you spent a shedload of money! I think those times have changed a lot now at lower price levels!
Apologies again, I can't demonstrate what I'm saying so best I leave it.
* Playing those YouTube vids above of the Blue Nile stuff, I was using headphones costing £3 or so from CPC. No bass and little top, I was still in tears with the intense emotion in those tracks and the connection with my former self in the 80's came straight back to bite me..
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 28, 2018 2:35:50 GMT
It just goes to show how personal music can be. The Blue Nile came across as ultra bland to me almost 30 years ago. I listened again to the recordings tonight and still came away with the same feeling. I don't really care for the singer's voice, but the instrumentation also leaves me cold. I still like the cover image for Hats though. I remember buying it and unwrapping it after hearing glowing reviews. I didn't even think the sound quality was particularly good and I came away scratching my head. I'm sure I have the CD somewhere, picked up in a charity shop in Cyprus of all places. I don't think I've ever played it. If I can lay my hands on it I will give it another go in case it's a grower.
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Post by dsjr on May 28, 2018 9:48:41 GMT
It depends how miserable you are. I've 'been there' you see and the songs resonated hugely. The sparse mixes are superb on a system able to reproduce them properly. I was also a fan of The Comsat Angels and Dead Can Dance with a little bit of The Cure as well and I think the styles overlap a little here...
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2018 14:09:14 GMT
I'm looking for best music if possible...
I'd love the chance to show you all what I mean, rather than just spouting words on a keyboard, but I can't I'm afraid. I was so damned lucky to be able to get to hear professional recordings played back properly and at one time I could have shown you. I'm not surprised a mid eighties Lp12 fell short of the master tape. Just shows Linn knew how poor it was. Perhaps their £20K souped up version will be a lot closer. Analogue Productions are issuing tape versions of some of their catalogue. If someone here has a good reel to reel and prepared to try one maybe a bake off could be arranged against the AP vinyl version. I would suggest 'Breaking Silence' might be a good recording to use. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 28, 2018 14:15:41 GMT
It depends how miserable you are. I've 'been there' you see and the songs resonated hugely. The sparse mixes are superb on a system able to reproduce them properly. I was also a fan of The Comsat Angels and Dead Can Dance with a little bit of The Cure as well and I think the styles overlap a little here... I can get that, because some music which originally left me cold, has resonated with me later in life. The music can't have changed so it had to be me. As a young man, I couldn't see what my brother liked about Bruce Springsteen. Then as I aged I gradually got to love his stuff. Same with Van Morrison. At around the same time I listened to Hats, I also bought Cowbiy Junkies Trinity Session, I also thought that to be bland. Today it's an album I love, I think it's mainly the lack of "proper" instruments that I can't get past with Blue Nile. A totally different arrangement might've transformed it for me. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 28, 2018 20:46:09 GMT
I'm looking for best music if possible...
I'd love the chance to show you all what I mean, rather than just spouting words on a keyboard, but I can't I'm afraid. I was so damned lucky to be able to get to hear professional recordings played back properly and at one time I could have shown you. I'm not surprised a mid eighties Lp12 fell short of the master tape. Just shows Linn knew how poor it was. Perhaps their £20K souped up version will be a lot closer. Analogue Productions are issuing tape versions of some of their catalogue. If someone here has a good reel to reel and prepared to try one maybe a bake off could be arranged against the AP vinyl version. I would suggest 'Breaking Silence' might be a good recording to use. In many audible ways it fell short of CD, so I am not surprised it didn't match master tape tbh. The LP12 was at its best in playing certain tracks where it's "additions" to the sound made for a sumptuous quality. It was never an all rounder though. Lots of people said The Rock was very close to Master Tape but I find it dull sounding with poor pitch stability. It's also poorly made. The platters are a joke and I have never seen one that isn't mis-shapen in some way. There are well engineered decks that I'd expect to be much closer. |
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Post by dsjr on May 28, 2018 23:10:52 GMT
This wasn't really to slag off the old fruitbox yet again, but to try to make a case for vinyl not sounding fully the same as the recording that made it, as the vinyl itself is springy and will soften the high frequency 'blow' a little.
Analogue tapes can't be played many times before they start to deteriorate and/or shed oxides. Digital dubs of these recordings sound all but identical now (it was mainly the early editors that effed things up I'm reliably told from a few pro sources I had which is why Decca made their own for instance). What's most important with analogue tapes is to find the original mix tapes (first generation from the multi-tracks) if possible and use those. The remastered King Crimson CD's from a few years ago did just this and even the superbly recorded 'Lizard' seems to benefit slightly in musical terms when I compared the original CD to the remastered one and I don't think the loudness wars had anything whatsoever to do with it as the chap who did the stereo mastering is a known good engineer and did the work with Robert Fripp in situ - all on RF's blog on DGM Live.
I'm going off on one again. With the gear I now have, I just don't find 'digital' a head only kind of experience. I'm getting heart and soul, power, especially in more recent recordings made without vinyl cuts having a priority, real feeling and involvement and a really good sense of air and depth which varies from disc to disc as it should and this also through the vintage pro amps I love so much.
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Post by dsjr on May 30, 2018 10:56:29 GMT
One CD player 'range' I can give a shout to I think, is the current pair of Luxman models. A few months since I heard them and they're hellishly expensive really for what is now cheap tech, but the sound again was involving, spacious, *musical* and with casework engineering to die for (which probably contributes well over half the cost;) )
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 18:09:44 GMT
I'm not surprised a mid eighties Lp12 fell short of the master tape. Just shows Linn knew how poor it was. Perhaps their £20K souped up version will be a lot closer. Analogue Productions are issuing tape versions of some of their catalogue. If someone here has a good reel to reel and prepared to try one maybe a bake off could be arranged against the AP vinyl version. I would suggest 'Breaking Silence' might be a good recording to use. In many audible ways it fell short of CD, so I am not surprised it didn't match master tape tbh. The LP12 was at its best in playing certain tracks where it's "additions" to the sound made for a sumptuous quality. It was never an all rounder though. Lots of people said The Rock was very close to Master Tape but I find it dull sounding with poor pitch stability. It's also poorly made. The platters are a joke and I have never seen one that isn't mis-shapen in some way. There are well engineered decks that I'd expect to be much closer. Pity you didn't try that Orbe you had. Might have been a keeper. I'm not making claims for close to master tape as that is just guessing. Many records and Cds correct things on the tapes to make them a more pleasing listen. In the end any deck is as good as how well the mastering and vinyl cutting is done. One modern recording you should try on both vinyl and CD is Leonard Cohen's Popular Problems. I've noticed this used quite regularly in reviews and it really shows what any source component is capable off. So many recordings are kind of shut in and compressed to some extent. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 30, 2018 18:37:23 GMT
In many audible ways it fell short of CD, so I am not surprised it didn't match master tape tbh. The LP12 was at its best in playing certain tracks where it's "additions" to the sound made for a sumptuous quality. It was never an all rounder though. Lots of people said The Rock was very close to Master Tape but I find it dull sounding with poor pitch stability. It's also poorly made. The platters are a joke and I have never seen one that isn't mis-shapen in some way. There are well engineered decks that I'd expect to be much closer. Pity you didn't try that Orbe you had. Might have been a keeper. I'm not making claims for close to master tape as that is just guessing. Many records and Cds correct things on the tapes to make them a more pleasing listen. In the end any deck is as good as how well the mastering and vinyl cutting is done. One modern recording you should try on both vinyl and CD is Leonard Cohen's Popular Problems. I've noticed this used quite regularly in reviews and it really shows what any source component is capable off. So many recordings are kind of shut in and compressed to some extent. I really don't know what's wrong with me, sometimes if an item takes a while to reach me, I've already moved on. I'd be the first to recognise it's the wrong way to be. And that I will probably seek one out in time because I feel like I missed out not hearing the last one. I guess I'm like the greedy school kid who buys too many sweets then can't eat them! |
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 18:40:52 GMT
Great analogy that I can relate to  S. |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on May 31, 2018 7:26:10 GMT
Great analogy that I can relate to S. When it comes to our buying habits and attitudes, I see so much of me in you, Shane. I watch other people scratch their heads and they just don't get some of the things you've bought and sold but to me it makes complete sense. I think you need to be on the same wavelength to understand it. It's not just us though. Over the years I've managed to find another couple of people who are just the same. We are rare and specia thoughl |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2018 21:23:21 GMT
I had an HDCD player once (20-bit I think) and it was great with HDCDs - I thought that sounded natural and better better than my Thorens TD 160 turntable setup at the time. There were only two problems - (a) I only had a few HDCD disks and (b)it played regular CDs terribly. It was a NAD cd541 if I remember rightly. Not sure why it sounded so rubbish with normal CDs really.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2018 21:33:06 GMT
That's odd. I seem to recall the 541 having a good reputation for sound quality.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 4, 2018 8:44:47 GMT
HDCD discs always had a colouration to me, the ones I heard anyway. It seemed like added reverb not always there in the original recording - very samey too. Modern CD reproduction seems better than ever and bypasses all this. Doplease remember that for decades, FM radio, even in the best times forty years ago, was 13 bit digital brick-walled at 15kHz.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2018 8:47:59 GMT
Copland players are very good as are Unison Research cdp's.
Both sound lush and warm whilst not sacrificing detail.
Analogueish....!!!
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 4, 2018 9:33:06 GMT
That matches my experience with the 266.
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Post by dsjr on Jul 4, 2018 11:48:14 GMT
The 266 was lean and stark sirs, but not in a harsh way... Nothing lush about that one in my experience. The 289 was the same, but 'bigger' sounding. The old 288 though was amusicalsweetie, but the reviewers didn't care so much for it, after complaining that digital wasn't as lush as analogue back then. Bloody idiots...
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 4, 2018 12:12:09 GMT
I had previously owned a CSA14 amd it was really polite and not my thing. Looks-wise it was beautiful and it was very nicely built too. The CD player had all of the looks and build but none of the same sonic traits. It was one of my biggest hifi surprises. Thats the great thing about buying used and trying for yourself at home. You can find items you otherwise wouldn’t. Plus it’s fun and costs nothing if you buy sensibly,
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Post by dsjr on Jul 4, 2018 13:45:19 GMT
I never 'warmed' to the amps apart from one, but the CD players were all good I thought and only changed when chips were discontinued i was told.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2018 20:43:29 GMT
That's odd. I seem to recall the 541 having a good reputation for sound quality. Reputations eh? Lot of dosh been made off that |
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Bigman80
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Post by Bigman80 on Jul 5, 2018 20:51:49 GMT
Shane has previously given a shout out for the original Sony PlayStation (early one with phono outs). It has a rep for sounding analogue. I owned one a long time ago but never have it a proper listen I used it as a games console and never thought to dabble.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2018 5:44:24 GMT
Please forgive me for asking such daft question. Are there some CD Players. That sound similar like some of the well known turntables? When I say similar, I mean tone wise. S. Good (and common) Question posed by the OP. Strange why you never hear..... Are there some Turntables that sound similar to some of the well known CD players...!!! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2018 10:18:42 GMT
Shane has previously given a shout out for the original Sony PlayStation (early one with phono outs). It has a rep for sounding analogue. I owned one a long time ago but never have it a proper listen I used it as a games console and never thought to dabble. Yes, I was thinking of investigating this. Only certain models are suitable apparently. Allegedly these:  |
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